Jonathan Paul Manziel
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One of the reasons some fans here hate Bill Belichick is because he didn't tailor the offense to Bernie Kosar remaining skills.My beef would be that Manziel does NOT fit any traditional NFL system....So a "special system" would have to be devised just to utilize his improvisational talents.....
And my problems with that are.....
- If you do that, where do you find back ups that also will do well in this "special" system....cause he WILL get hurt eventually.....all QB's do......and you will be screwed when that happens...
- And if you cant find another Johnny or 2(as back ups).....do you then force your team to learn 2 systems, so they can switch up for the other QB's?.....(cause thats a bad idea)....
- And....do you totally revamp your offense and system, making 25 other guys adjust their play.....for a guy who hasnt done anything in 2 years???......really?.....I dont know anyone that would sell out their whole Offense and push the whole pot in for a hand like that?....
It's rare you will have three excellent quarterbacks with the exact same skill set.
Just build a good team. If it turns out johnny is the weak link then you can plug in wtvr 6 foot 6 choirboy you want.
I mean think about it, a tough defense and a rugged running game have nothing to do with Johnny's skill set. Or Josh or Austin or Hoyers, or anybody's.
WSS
One of the reasons some fans here hate Bill Belichick is because he didn't tailor the offense to Bernie Kosar remaining skills.
It's rare you will have three excellent quarterbacks with the exact same skill set.
Just build a good team. If it turns out johnny is the weak link then you can plug in wtvr 6 foot 6 choirboy you want.
I mean think about it, a tough defense and a rugged running game have nothing to do with Johnny's skill set. Or Josh or Austin or Hoyers, or anybody's.
WSS
hard to tailor an offense with a qb that moved like a constuction crane and no strength left to throw the ball. After bernie got crushed by derrick thomas, he was never the same...thomas just friggin crushed him like a bug and that was the end of poor ole bernie...belichik made some mistakes that he learned from, like the metcalf up the middle syndrome, but he was 100 percent correct in benching bernie...
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You mean a rookie with 0 starts couldn't bear out a guy with 6 years experience? Then a guy with 2 and a half starts couldn't beat out a guy with a million years experience?
Surely a guy with 6 starts can beat out a guy with a million years experience AND a super bowl appearance.
Blake Bortles beat out Chad Henne.
Teddy Twatwater beat out Matt Cassell
Derek Carr beat out Matt Schaub
You mean a first round pick couldn't beat out EITHER Brian Hoyer (Career backup with 3 wins) OR Josh McCown (Career backup coming off 1-10 season)?
Zombo
Zombo said:
Blake Bortles beat out Chad Henne.
Teddy Twatwater beat out Matt Cassell
Derek Carr beat out Matt Schaub
You mean a first round pick couldn't beat out EITHER Brian Hoyer (Career backup with 3 wins) OR Josh McCown (Career backup coming off 1-10 season)?
Zombo
None of them were put in a "QB competition". They were handed the reigns, and the coaches never flip flopped, regardless of how poorly they started.
You know, because their coaches aren't fucking morons.
It must be nice to take a guy and actually let him play.
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In a rare turn of events i agree with tcpo on her last point
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This I can only imagine is the result of his talk with pettine, and pettine smacking him upside the head.
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JM took a ass whippin Sunday. imo video Pet cleared up at his presser. You don't fool concussions in NFL anymore. If we know Pet when he talked to JM about video JM was not the same player Pet knows. Believe when players return to practice Wednesday they must be cleared by medical trainer first?
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You mean a rookie with 0 starts couldn't bear out a guy with 6 years experience? Then a guy with 2 and a half starts couldn't beat out a guy with a million years experience?
Surely a guy with 6 starts can beat out a guy with a million years experience AND a super bowl appearance.
Blake Bortles beat out Chad Henne.
Teddy Twatwater beat out Matt Cassell
Derek Carr beat out Matt Schaub
You mean a first round pick couldn't beat out EITHER Brian Hoyer (Career backup with 3 wins) OR Josh McCown (Career backup coming off 1-10 season)?
Zombo
Zombo said:
Blake Bortles beat out Chad Henne.
Teddy Twatwater beat out Matt Cassell
Derek Carr beat out Matt Schaub
You mean a first round pick couldn't beat out EITHER Brian Hoyer (Career backup with 3 wins) OR Josh McCown (Career backup coming off 1-10 season)?
Zombo
(Emphasis added)
None of them were put in a "QB competition". They were handed the reigns, and the coaches never flip flopped, regardless of how poorly they started.
You know, because their coaches aren't fucking morons.
It must be nice to take a guy and actually let him play.
(Emphasis added)
That's not how it happened with Bortles.
The original plan was to have him sit his entire rookie year. It was determined he had so many mechanical flaws he wasn't ready to start from jump, even though he showed signs of being special in preseason his rookie year.
Chad Henne started the first three games, and after two and a half projectile vomit inducing performances by Henne, they put Bortles in.
No, there was no "competition," but Bortles wasn't simply handed the job from the beginning, either. Bradley and (Jaguars GM) Dave Caldwell have both said though the plan was to have him sit, the experience Bortles gained his first year was invaluable.
Furthermore, in terms of preparation, Bortles exceeded the coaches expectations. He had command of the playbook. After his rookie season, he went to the same mechanics guru that Drew Brees uses and fixed the bulk of his mechanical issues. He initiated workouts with his receivers, also in California. Similar glowing reports of strong work ethic have been linked to Bridgewater, Winston, Mariota, and Luck. I do not recall similar reports coming out about Carr, but given his brother played in the league, it would not be surprising if the young Raiders' QB had the requisite work ethic too. Now I readily admit I am not as informed of Browns happenings as you guys are, and I will accept correction on this point, but it is my understanding there were issues with Manziel's preparation, to the point that teammates supposedly have called him out. Specifically, he did not know the playbook or the progressions his rookie year, and time that would have been spent on refining his mechanics, etc. after his rookie year was spent in rehab. I do not know of any workouts organized by Manziel with his receivers either. From the outside looking in, it seems partying has been his priority, which is why Pettine found it necessary to have the conference with him and ultimately demoting him to 3rd string immediately after naming him starter. Fortunately for Jaguars fans, at this, point, there have been no such meetings about Bortles, and hopefully it never will be. I haven't heard about similar meetings with any of Manziel's contemporaries. Just Manziel. Again, if there are details/facts I am missing, please enlighten me.
I will say this in fairness to Manziel. The suspension of the WR, the loss of TE Jordan Cameron, and the seeming failure to invest adequately in the skill positions would have a negative effect on any young QB. If you look at the great QBs over the decades, you will invariably see those teams invest heavily in skill positions after acquiring the franchise signal caller. Pittsburgh followed the Bradshaw drafting with Franco Harris and Lynn Swann in the first rounds. Aikman was followed in subsequent drafts by Emmitt Smith, Alvin Harper, Jimmy Smith, and Kevin Williams. Peyton Manning was drafted in the Colts by 1998. The Colts provided him with Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. The Steelers followed the Roethlisberger draft with Heath Miller, Santonio Holmes, and Rashad Mendenhall. Luck was given Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and TY Hilton in the same draft, and Donte Moncrief and Phillip Dorsett in later drafts. The Raiders gave Carr Amari Cooper the next year. I think if there is going to be any hope of Manziel developing into the QB Browns fans hope, you have to give him the tools around him to succeed.
But he has to do his part.
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Yeah? You think Andy Dalton would be going to the playoffs with this team?
Guess it's a good thing he didn't get shitcanned early in Cincinnati?
Along with the coaching staff and front office.
WSS
The simple point being made is small running QBs have prove susceptible to injury. Which is just another check in the "cut ties" column for Johnny Manziel.
The simpler point is that quarterbacks are going to get hurt.The simple point being made is small running QBs have prove susceptible to injury. Which is just another check in the "cut ties" column for Johnny Manziel.
(the simplest point is that the concussion protocol has fucked up the game)
WSS
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Bridgewater and Carr weren't just handed the job either, they earned it.
Manziel himself admits he blew the first year and was unprepared, yet his fanboys thinks he should have been handed the job anyway.
Here's a timeline article that sums it up pretty unbiased and straight IMO
"Beginning with reports that came out right after the draft and continued throughout the 2014 season, a steady stream of embarrassing stories gave hints of why Browns coaches were reluctant to play Manziel, but when he finally did get his chance, it was a mostly disappointing performance. It was not simply that he made typical rookie mistakes on the field, which would have been entirely understandable, but rather that he hadn’t thoroughly prepared, he didn’t know the playbook."
Bortles, as noted above, knew the playbook. As did Carr and Bridgewater.
It's Johnny's fault he couldn't beat out retreads.
Zombo
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Zombo said:
Blake Bortles beat out Chad Henne.
Teddy Twatwater beat out Matt Cassell
Derek Carr beat out Matt Schaub
You mean a first round pick couldn't beat out EITHER Brian Hoyer (Career backup with 3 wins) OR Josh McCown (Career backup coming off 1-10 season)?
Zombo
(Emphasis added)
None of them were put in a "QB competition". They were handed the reigns, and the coaches never flip flopped, regardless of how poorly they started.
You know, because their coaches aren't fucking morons.
It must be nice to take a guy and actually let him play.
(Emphasis added)
That's not how it happened with Bortles.
The original plan was to have him sit his entire rookie year. It was determined he had so many mechanical flaws he wasn't ready to start from jump, even though he showed signs of being special in preseason his rookie year.
Chad Henne started the first three games, and after two and a half projectile vomit inducing performances by Henne, they put Bortles in.
No, there was no "competition," but Bortles wasn't simply handed the job from the beginning, either. Bradley and (Jaguars GM) Dave Caldwell have both said though the plan was to have him sit, the experience Bortles gained his first year was invaluable.
Furthermore, in terms of preparation, Bortles exceeded the coaches expectations. He had command of the playbook. After his rookie season, he went to the same mechanics guru that Drew Brees uses and fixed the bulk of his mechanical issues. He initiated workouts with his receivers, also in California. Similar glowing reports of strong work ethic have been linked to Bridgewater, Winston, Mariota, and Luck. I do not recall similar reports coming out about Carr, but given his brother played in the league, it would not be surprising if the young Raiders' QB had the requisite work ethic too. Now I readily admit I am not as informed of Browns happenings as you guys are, and I will accept correction on this point, but it is my understanding there were issues with Manziel's preparation, to the point that teammates supposedly have called him out. Specifically, he did not know the playbook or the progressions his rookie year, and time that would have been spent on refining his mechanics, etc. after his rookie year was spent in rehab. I do not know of any workouts organized by Manziel with his receivers either. From the outside looking in, it seems partying has been his priority, which is why Pettine found it necessary to have the conference with him and ultimately demoting him to 3rd string immediately after naming him starter. Fortunately for Jaguars fans, at this, point, there have been no such meetings about Bortles, and hopefully it never will be. I haven't heard about similar meetings with any of Manziel's contemporaries. Just Manziel. Again, if there are details/facts I am missing, please enlighten me.
I will say this in fairness to Manziel. The suspension of the WR, the loss of TE Jordan Cameron, and the seeming failure to invest adequately in the skill positions would have a negative effect on any young QB. If you look at the great QBs over the decades, you will invariably see those teams invest heavily in skill positions after acquiring the franchise signal caller. Pittsburgh followed the Bradshaw drafting with Franco Harris and Lynn Swann in the first rounds. Aikman was followed in subsequent drafts by Emmitt Smith, Alvin Harper, Jimmy Smith, and Kevin Williams. Peyton Manning was drafted in the Colts by 1998. The Colts provided him with Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. The Steelers followed the Roethlisberger draft with Heath Miller, Santonio Holmes, and Rashad Mendenhall. Luck was given Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and TY Hilton in the same draft, and Donte Moncrief and Phillip Dorsett in later drafts. The Raiders gave Carr Amari Cooper the next year. I think if there is going to be any hope of Manziel developing into the QB Browns fans hope, you have to give him the tools around him to succeed.
But he has to do his part.
I will say this in fairness to Manziel. The suspension of the WR, the loss of TE Jordan Cameron, and the seeming failure to invest adequately in the skill positions would have a negative effect on any young QB. If you look at the great QBs over the decades, you will invariably see those teams invest heavily in skill positions after acquiring the franchise signal caller. Pittsburgh followed the Bradshaw drafting with Franco Harris and Lynn Swann in the first rounds. Aikman was followed in subsequent drafts by Emmitt Smith, Alvin Harper, Jimmy Smith, and Kevin Williams. Peyton Manning was drafted in the Colts by 1998. The Colts provided him with Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark. The Steelers followed the Roethlisberger draft with Heath Miller, Santonio Holmes, and Rashad Mendenhall. Luck was given Dwayne Allen, Coby Fleener and TY Hilton in the same draft, and Donte Moncrief and Phillip Dorsett in later drafts. The Raiders gave Carr Amari Cooper the next year. I think if there is going to be any hope of Manziel developing into the QB Browns fans hope, you have to give him the tools around him to succeed.
But he has to do his part.
I agree about skill position players, but in fairness, we never skipped a beat at TE. Cameron was replaced by Barnidge, who has played better, and has stayed healthier.
And McCown and Hoyer had the same weapons as Johnny.
In the 7 games where McCown took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 21.8 points per game and 290.1 passing yards per game.
In the 7 games where Manziel took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 15.3 points per game and 195.5 passing yards per game.
But, since the defense had its two best games of the year with Johnny under center, and held the lowly Titans to 14 and the lowly 49ers to 10 ... Johnny was better.
Our third best defensive game was holding the Chiefs to 17, but our QB was 13-32 in that game.
We gave up 24 or more points in all of McCowns starts ... but I'm sure that was his fault. Johnny "inspired" the defense.
Zombo
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The simpler point is that quarterbacks are going to get hurt.The simple point being made is small running QBs have prove susceptible to injury. Which is just another check in the "cut ties" column for Johnny Manziel.
(the simplest point is that the concussion protocol has fucked up the game)
WSS
The simpler point is that quarterbacks are going to get hurt.
(the simplest point is that the concussion protocol has fucked up the game)
WSS
Do we lead the league in time out for concussion protocol?
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On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
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The timing of this is more fishy than an $2 hookers vagina who's working a double shift at a used car sales convention
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Tell you what, call me when the rest of the team blocks tackles and runs the ball.
Even your boy Hoyer looked OK on the occasions they did that. At least once in awhile.
Again with the argument shift?
My boy, along with McC and Davis, look like NFL QBs. It's easy to see... not slight.
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Another "get the season over" like last season. The pressure is on and Manziel wants NOOOO part of a steeler team in desperation mode. He'd rather sit this one out. " yeah doc....... i still feel a little dizzy some times...
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On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
On the conspiracy side, anything is possible I guess......but it should be pointed out that concussion protocol isnt something that is managed by the teams or their medical staffs.....once a player has symptoms, it is turned over to an independent doctor to manage, so the teams cant cheat(basically)....meaning the NFL has taken the decision making process away from the players and the teams....
So.....really.....Pettine cant "create" a concussion in order to sit Johnny......(but, if he wanted to, he could create a sprain or strain).....and the only reason Johnny is in protocol is because HE came into work and reported he had symptoms(which automatically puts him in).....so, I think we can assume this isnt some fake thing created by the coaches to punish our boy....(though Johnny could create the situation, if he was so inclined).....(dont think either did, really)
Interesting stats for 2015......Cleveland Browns lead the league in games missed due to concussion.....and are 4th in games missed due to injury.....
So.....saying all teams have injuries is true.....but all teams dont lead the league.....as a comparison, we have missed 162 man games compared to Cinnci at 74, Denver at 80 or Carolina at 100 man games......(big difference)
I can't imagine it would be easier to fake a sprain than a concussion.
WSS
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Tell you what, call me when the rest of the team blocks tackles and runs the ball.
Pretty sure all those things happened last week.....
Strong running game?.....check........Big Defensive stops?......check......No dropped passes?.......check.....Solid O line play?.....check........Solid QB play?.......nope
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Doesn't sound simple at all and I guess I don't understand your point. Seems to me the team Dr could find evidence of a sprain. Seems like the same Dr could ask a few questions or even pull out a flashlight and check the eyes.
I guess if anybody didn't want a player to play you can tell the team Dr you were a little worried since his speech seemed a little slurred. Could you check that out, doc?
That seems easier to me than the coach telling the doctor this guy's got a pulled muscle and the player saying I feel fine.
But most importantly, what are we arguing about?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I remember very specifically when I believe the concussion happened. A defender hit Manziel from the side and their helmets banged together very hard. On the replay, I remember thinking how lucky Manziel was that he wasn't concussed. I'm willing to bet that's when it occurred.
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