Farmer and Pettine both fired. Official
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So you want to find someone to promote to defensive coordinator that has the chops to be the head coach?
WSS
So you want to find someone to promote to defensive coordinator that has the chops to be the head coach?
WSS
Yes.....think it would make some sense...at least it would add a little security going forward....
This year, if Jimmy had wanted to fire Pettine, it was pretty clear that we had no one on this staff that was qualified to step in.....as the entire staff(top to bottom) is pretty much an all rookie cast....learning on the fly.....
And if a rookie head coach gets a few(3 or 4?) mulligans for making mistakes.....how many mulligans do we get for a rookie HC, 2 rookie coordinators, 8 rookie position coaches, a rookie GM, a rookie President, a rookie owner and 8-10 rookie and 2nd year players.......all learning at the same time?....cause I count a hella lot of mistake potential there....
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So you want to find someone to promote to defensive coordinator that has the chops to be the head coach?
WSS
Yes.....think it would make some sense...at least it would add a little security going forward....
This year, if Jimmy had wanted to fire Pettine, it was pretty clear that we had no one on this staff that was qualified to step in.....as the entire staff(top to bottom) is pretty much an all rookie cast....learning on the fly.....
And if a rookie head coach gets a few(3 or 4?) mulligans for making mistakes.....how many mulligans do we get for a rookie HC, 2 rookie coordinators, 8 rookie position coaches, a rookie GM, a rookie President, a rookie owner and 8-10 rookie and 2nd year players.......all learning at the same time?....cause I count a hella lot of mistake potential there....
And if a rookie head coach gets a few(3 or 4?) mulligans for making mistakes.....how many mulligans do we get for a rookie HC, 2 rookie coordinators, 8 rookie position coaches, a rookie GM, a rookie President, a rookie owner and 8-10 rookie and 2nd year players.......all learning at the same time?....cause I count a hella lot of mistake potential there....
What could possibly go wrong?
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
See....I dont even get these rumors......(and what does "extensive work" mean????).....
The Browns are described as having an over achieving offense, with Flip being one of the season bright spots....
And a team with an under performing defense.....which is the primary reason this team isnt winning.....
So.....good offense - bad defense.....and the rumor is that we want to hire an offensive coach to fix it?....
Ok......
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And if a rookie head coach gets a few(3 or 4?) mulligans for making mistakes.....how many mulligans do we get for a rookie HC, 2 rookie coordinators, 8 rookie position coaches, a rookie GM, a rookie President, a rookie owner and 8-10 rookie and 2nd year players.......all learning at the same time?....cause I count a hella lot of mistake potential there....
What could possibly go wrong?
What could possibly go wrong?
How about a new rookie head coach??....now that his one has some experience and might be figuring it out....
And we can watch him flail about, trying to learn his job(with the ole massive 2 year axe hanging over his head)....whilst also trying to win without a single impact player.......on Offense or Defense....
THAT should be awesome!!!!!
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See....I dont even get these rumors......(and what does "extensive work" mean????).....
The Browns are described as having an over achieving offense, with Flip being one of the season bright spots....
And a team with an under performing defense.....which is the primary reason this team isnt winning.....
So.....good offense - bad defense.....and the rumor is that we want to hire an offensive coach to fix it?....
Ok......
See....I dont even get these rumors......(and what does "extensive work" mean????).....
Gase pulled out of the Browns coaching search, so I'd assume extensive work refers to the amount of research they did on him back then. I would think they were also interested in bringing him in as the offensive coordinator when Fox was canned by the Broncos.
I would prioritise the GM search. Let him pick whether to give Pettine one more year or if he should bring in a new coach. I'd be happy to keep Flip here next season though.
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Oh maybe, but by the time in the season it becomes apparent that the worst is happening who cares what temp is elevated to head coach for the remainder of the games?
We have a tough enough time promoting a coordinator to head coach, let alone promoting somebody's line coach to coordinator to head coach any seasons time
Maybe for enough money Gruden would like to be DC?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
What could possibly go wrong?
How about a new rookie head coach??....now that his one has some experience and might be figuring it out....
And we can watch him flail about, trying to learn his job(with the ole massive 2 year axe hanging over his head)....whilst also trying to win without a single impact player.......on Offense or Defense....
THAT should be awesome!!!!!
How about a new rookie head coach??....now that his one has some experience and might be figuring it out....
And we can watch him flail about, trying to learn his job(with the ole massive 2 year axe hanging over his head)....whilst also trying to win without a single impact player.......on Offense or Defense....
THAT should be awesome!!!!!
There are those who think there will come a day, when some rookie HC prodigy will ride into town on his white stallion and take us to the SB in his first year.
Yet those are the same folks that will want his head on a stick as soon as we go 0-4.
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Fire both and then fire himself.
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Oh maybe, but by the time in the season it becomes apparent that the worst is happening who cares what temp is elevated to head coach for the remainder of the games?
We have a tough enough time promoting a coordinator to head coach, let alone promoting somebody's line coach to coordinator to head coach any seasons time
Maybe for enough money Gruden would like to be DC?
WSS
We have a tough enough time promoting a coordinator to head coach, let alone promoting somebody's line coach to coordinator to head coach any seasons time
Maybe for enough money Gruden would like to be DC?
Ha!....Id def like someone experienced, like Gruden, as a coordinator...which is kind of my point....
Like you just said.....it IS tough enough just promoting a coordinator to HC.....so lets not get into a situation where we can be forced into promoting a QB coach.....to OC ....to HC all in one season.....which is where we'd be right now, had they wanted to fire Pettine earlier this season.....(ala Philbin)
I liked what they did for Chud, by bringing in 2 top coordinators with extensive histories and past success.....by doing that, he had a world of experience right at his finger tips.....and, hey, if they wanted to fire him, then Norv Turner x -nfl coach is waiting in the wings.....
But, Pettine has none of that...cause there's not one person within the organization that has the experience to help anybody with anything.....and thats across the board.....
So....bringing in another inexperienced guy, by promoting another position coach to DC or promoting another coordinator to HC, is brutally unexciting.....
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No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.
in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
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Okay, so may the first rookie Head Coach without sin pick up the first rock to throw at Pettine. Can BB even pick up a rock here?
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As I have said often enough I vote for continuity. That being said why does he get a pass for this shitso defense?
Pet got his job here because he was a defensive coordinator.
On top of that O'Neill is his old assistant. Coach can't just take him aside and point out things that are fucked up?
I don't mind passing on a little benefit of the doubt but he wasn't hired to be an intern, he was hired to be the head coach.
WSS
As I have said often enough I vote for continuity. That being said why does he get a pass for this shitso defense?
Pet got his job here because he was a defensive coordinator.
On top of that O'Neill is his old assistant. Coach can't just take him aside and point out things that are fucked up?
I don't mind passing on a little benefit of the doubt but he wasn't hired to be an intern, he was hired to be the head coach.
WSS
We're not that far apart Steve. This is just what's behind my current angle on it all today.
I'll begin with your part in bold. Nobody had a pistol to Jimmy's temple saying you HAVE to avoid the interest level and experience volume of a Bruce Arians. I'm not sure why you want to blame Mike Pettine for Jimmy's decision to snub Arians but something compelled you to do so. If anything, this is a good enough warning Jimmy remains just as capable of missing the next type of Bruce Arians out there.
Moving on, I don't feel like asking Pettine to fire all our defensive coaches and most likely our STs Coach would be giving him a pass. I feel like it gives him the same 1 more chance you want Manziel getting at the end of his 2nd season here. Why would I feel he deserves 1 more chance?
Could it be that the person in charge (Farmer) of who Pettine plays gridiron chess with didn't understand who Khalil Mack was any more than he understood who Justin Gilbert was? That's just as terrifying as the Exorcist.
Furthermore, if I didn't see a 7-4 start response to the 2013 train wreck in spite of an absurd injury volume that put 3 Pro Bowl players on IR in 2014 (Mack, Gordon, Cameron) - I'd be more inclined to keep my earlier knee jerk of wanting Pettine to join Farmer in take a hikesies. At least the first year, Pettine could work around Farmer's land mines to the tune of play like a Brown. 1 more year of Farmer eclipsing progress as well as Pettine's bad choice of defensive coaches here and it just wasn't possible in 2015. Is it human or rational to understand that a 7-9 season that had the highest % of competitive football games we've seen since 2007 gave the staff of that bend don't break defense from 2014 the right for the chance to try to improve in 2015? Unfortunately such a view backfired for 2015 and Pettine has acknowledged he understands he has to upgrade coaches. My take is adding another former Baltimore Defensive Coach like Chuck Pagano as our DC plus his defensive assistants from Indy takes career of all that real quick all the way down to NFL experience volumes of staff.
I'm not any happier than you about the defense in 2015 or a Rookie Head Coach's decisions as to whom he would employ to coach it up. That said, the selection of coaches on the offensive side of the ball (except for Moeller) seemed to be pretty good ideas. Any complaints about McCown? Thomas? Duke? Barnidge? Benjamin? Mack? Schwartz? - How about Greco playing the best football of his career in 2014? Craig Robertson also filled in admirably enough to make me wonder if he didn't outright upgrade Karlos Dansby down the stretch of 2014. Even Kruger had a career high of 11 sacks in sacks in 2014 plus his hit on Brees gave us a pic 6 that we needed in a very close win. An undrafted Gipson made the Pro Bowl in 2014 so there were enough silver linings to shape where I'm at right now.
It'll be interesting to see how many of Farmer's draft choices in 2013 and 2014 are still playing in the NFL a few years from now while guys from previous regimes like Phil Taylor, Bark Mingo, Jordan Cameron, Josh Gordon haven't quite given us this elusive sense of continuity . Again, if you want you want get an idea of what it's like to play gridiron chess in Cleveland - go challenge someone to a game of chess where you only get to attack with your pawns while your opponent gets to play at full strength. Let me know how easy it is to look brilliant with the pawns.
The alternative to keeping Pettine is to race back to Jimmy's hiring criteria where a lot of his previous Head Coaching candidates like Whis and Kelly need jobs while Arians was ignorantly snubbed here. Sound like a better thing to trust? This alternative plus keeping Farmer looks like it can cause greater collateral damage than upgrading our defensive staff moving forward.
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No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.
in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.
in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
Yep. It's "good offense" between the 20s for the most part. I just think most of us were surprised the offense wasn't the weak link this season.
In spite of that, I'd still prefer a top defensive player with our 1st draft pick in April.
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I don't think it matters if he is the hottest coaching candidate for the upcoming offseason. If you are going to fire Farmer, you need to get your GM first and have him hit the ground running to find a coach. Do NOT hire a coach then a GM after again. That is what got us in this mess, it is why we are always in this mess. Hire someone as a GM, let them run shit. If they don't work out, then fire/hire a new GM, and keep letting them make football decisions. I already do NOT like Haslems ability to hire a GM, but I'd prefer the input on a GM who we have zero clue about his hiring abilities than Haslem right now.
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If I owned this team, and increased my investment the way Jimmy has, I would go after whoever is at the top of my list
Give him $15 million a year and tell him you have COMPLETE control.
If you want to coach, so be it, if you want to hire a coach, so be it.
Just fix this CRAP!!!!!!!
If I owned this team, and increased my investment the way Jimmy has, I would go after whoever is at the top of my list
Give him $15 million a year and tell him you have COMPLETE control.
If you want to coach, so be it, if you want to hire a coach, so be it.
Just fix this CRAP!!!!!!!
No no no.
Marty had complete control, we went backwards. Coaching is hard enough, you can't play GM at the same time (Chip Kelly).
Karlis Missed -
No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.
in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....
hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?
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How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....
hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?
Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....
hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?
No, I don't have limited interpretive skills. You do in this case. In the very post above you confuse under/overperforming with the offense being better than the defense. It's not an either/or thing. Even if the offense has performed better than the defense, that is a separate issue than the offense under or overperforming.
We are a 3-12 team, with all our wins coming against terrible teams. No unit has overachieved. Offense and defense have both been bad. The fact that one unit may have been better than another doesn't mean they both haven't sucked.
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I think Farmer is the #1 reason we haven't been able to do anything this year. I know Petine has a say in who we draft, but Farmer had the ability to draft who he damn well pleases. A back up Guard who can't do shit with a 1st round pick? 4th round WR that can't make it out of the preseason and no other team will even think of touching. We had 12 picks this year and who out of that group made any real contribution to the team other than Shelton? How about our 2 first round picks from the year before? We can't even get our top 10 CB on the fireld! This doesn't even mention the $12 million contract given to a WR who isn't good enough to be activated for games.
This thing is, if Farmer goes, I think you have to let Petine go. I think he could do better if he wiped most of his defensive staff and some of his offensive staff, but I don't want to hire another GM who has to come in and keep a coach he didn't hire. Let the GM hire the coach.
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