Camp Wentz- Starts here.
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I'll go ahead right now and put on record that I don't think any QB is worth the #2 pick, and will be very disappointed if the Browns reach yet again.
Now if they are able to trade back to say 10 - 15 and take one of the top 2/3 QB prospects, then I'm OK with that..... I'll revisit this post come draft night's conclusion.
I'm taking this to mean that you don't see a franchise guy in this draft. if the Browns can land the a guy who can put an end to names being added to the infamous jersey for 10+ years he's worth the entire draft.
I've taken the "find your qb later" camp before, but if the FO believes there is a franchise qb in this group (as I do) they need to do whatever it takes.
We've wasted nearly a decade of having the best LT in the league because he never had anyone worth protecting, time to fix that...
I'm taking this to mean that you don't see a franchise guy in this draft. if the Browns can land the a guy who can put an end to names being added to the infamous jersey for 10+ years he's worth the entire draft.
I've taken the "find your qb later" camp before, but if the FO believes there is a franchise qb in this group (as I do) they need to do whatever it takes.
We've wasted nearly a decade of having the best LT in the league because he never had anyone worth protecting, time to fix that...
And who is this franchise QB that you think the Browns should take in this draft?
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I honestly don't know if there is a "franchise QB" in this draft, but I'm hoping either Goff or Wentz (or Lynch) scores high enough to warrant the second pick. I'm also hoping our talent gurus are smart enough to figure it all out. The worst thing to happen would be for us to pick a QB just because we need one. Wentz and Goff both have talented physical attributes, and they also appear intelligent. I want to say that Wenzt has something like a 4.0.
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No exactly. I feel they're almost equal prospects of the moment. However I do believe Wentz will ultimately be the better finished product.
tia, respect the hell out of your football opinions, but just don't see this one. Everything I see says that between his football ears Wentz is not close to Goff and that Goff is "there".
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
I was looking at draft order + needs + draft prospects and trying to figure out what team would want to trade up to No. 2, and why would they need to.
Haven't been able to come up with a scenario that nets the Browns a trade down
Ultimately depends upon how many elite prospects are in the draft and the distance between them and the 2nd best prospects for a given position, doesn't it?
Take Bosa, the most popular "elite" around here who plays at a high-value position. What matters as much or more than whether he really is elite or not is how far Buckner is behind him. If Buckner is close and Bosa goes #1 to TN, then the #2's value jumps immediately as the next best DE (Dodd?) is well behind.
The other non-QB that jumps at me is Jack at OLB. Due to size questions I still have trouble seeing a use that sets his value high, but if he rises as high as some have him he becomes a very valuable commodity due to Smith's knee.
Other candidates may emerge from OT and CB, but to my eye there are too many very good candidates at these positions for anything less than generationally elite prospects to separate themselves.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Decent article on Wentz. Sounds like a down to earth guy.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
If we take Goff there's a very good chance in 2 years the fan base is screaming for another QB draft pick. I don't want the Browns to even sniff at a QB in the draft unless he's a guy that barring injury, could start day one his rookie year. Doesn't have to a world beater in his first season, but is good enough to start. Goff is not that.
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No exactly. I feel they're almost equal prospects of the moment. However I do believe Wentz will ultimately be the better finished product.
tia, respect the hell out of your football opinions, but just don't see this one. Everything I see says that between his football ears Wentz is not close to Goff and that Goff is "there".
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
I was looking at draft order + needs + draft prospects and trying to figure out what team would want to trade up to No. 2, and why would they need to.
Haven't been able to come up with a scenario that nets the Browns a trade down
Ultimately depends upon how many elite prospects are in the draft and the distance between them and the 2nd best prospects for a given position, doesn't it?
Take Bosa, the most popular "elite" around here who plays at a high-value position. What matters as much or more than whether he really is elite or not is how far Buckner is behind him. If Buckner is close and Bosa goes #1 to TN, then the #2's value jumps immediately as the next best DE (Dodd?) is well behind.
The other non-QB that jumps at me is Jack at OLB. Due to size questions I still have trouble seeing a use that sets his value high, but if he rises as high as some have him he becomes a very valuable commodity due to Smith's knee.
Other candidates may emerge from OT and CB, but to my eye there are too many very good candidates at these positions for anything less than generationally elite prospects to separate themselves.
tia, respect the hell out of your football opinions, but just don't see this one. Everything I see says that between his football ears Wentz is not close to Goff and that Goff is "there".
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
Like any smart man, humility is a must. Just because I'm rather smitten with Wentz now doesn't mean I don't reserve the right to change my mind based upon things I see. What film I've seen between he and Goff is at an intermediate point. Once the season is over and there's more tape available, I'll dig into the meat and potatoes then. I'm sure I'll uncover more than what I've seen now.
It's highly possible I may be of a different mindset come April. However, I still feel its a weak QB class and if Bosa is there, it'll be awfully hard for me to pass up on that.
As for Wentz having it between the ears - I like the 'lightbulb' phrase. I don't necessarily believe one day the light go goes on from an off position. I believe that light will grow brighter where some may consider it 'dim'.
edit: Remember how I felt about Grayson last year until you pointed me to some film of Petty and told me to take a look? I was rather on the fence about the two of them after that. Considering I was guns blazing for feeling Grayson was an underrated, potential gem to cooling off and seeing other options. Still a long ways to go before the draft. Let us hope our new front office can take a similar mentality.
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No exactly. I feel they're almost equal prospects of the moment. However I do believe Wentz will ultimately be the better finished product.
tia, respect the hell out of your football opinions, but just don't see this one. Everything I see says that between his football ears Wentz is not close to Goff and that Goff is "there".
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
I was looking at draft order + needs + draft prospects and trying to figure out what team would want to trade up to No. 2, and why would they need to.
Haven't been able to come up with a scenario that nets the Browns a trade down
Ultimately depends upon how many elite prospects are in the draft and the distance between them and the 2nd best prospects for a given position, doesn't it?
Take Bosa, the most popular "elite" around here who plays at a high-value position. What matters as much or more than whether he really is elite or not is how far Buckner is behind him. If Buckner is close and Bosa goes #1 to TN, then the #2's value jumps immediately as the next best DE (Dodd?) is well behind.
The other non-QB that jumps at me is Jack at OLB. Due to size questions I still have trouble seeing a use that sets his value high, but if he rises as high as some have him he becomes a very valuable commodity due to Smith's knee.
Other candidates may emerge from OT and CB, but to my eye there are too many very good candidates at these positions for anything less than generationally elite prospects to separate themselves.
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
This is the biggest reason I'm in Camp Goff.
Not to mention you see issues with timing and reads (or lack thereof) against FCS competition. Getting the internal clock right for the much faster paced NFL is going to be a hard transition to make when you don't have the internal clock right when you play for the "Alabama of the FCS" Likewise if he's locking on and not making that many reads against FCS defenses - nobody knows how well he'll do reading an NFL defense. The basic, slow senior bowl practice pretty much shows his struggles there - and that's a hell of a lot easier than learning to do it on NFL gameday.
I'll take the mental over physical every time - and it's not like Goff is a midget who is too weak to make the throws. As far as I can tell he's able to make all the throws he needs to.
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Decent article on Wentz. Sounds like a down to earth guy.
Points taken, tia...
BION I've tried to stay reserved with Goff, but everything I've looked at just keeps pulling me deeper into his corner.
Decent article on Wentz. Sounds like a down to earth guy.
Except for that Farve bit, yeah... and the kid comes across even better on video.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Points taken, tia...
BION I've tried to stay reserved with Goff, but everything I've looked at just keeps pulling me deeper into his corner.
Decent article on Wentz. Sounds like a down to earth guy.
Except for that Farve bit, yeah... and the kid comes across even better on video.
Points taken, tia...
BION I've tried to stay reserved with Goff, but everything I've looked at just keeps pulling me deeper into his corner.
Except for that Farve bit, yeah... and the kid comes across even better on video.
I love the Favre bit, personally. But I am also a gigantic Favre fan and always have been, so that's probably why.
Also, for the record: https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/692744502583390209
Rumor has it that Wentz was valued rather highly when Farmer was in the building...and it's the same scouting department.... (It's silly season, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt. But it's still interesting to me nonetheless.)
As for the Goff/Wentz debate - I don't think we could go wrong with either of them. It's not one or the other for me. I just value Wentz's potential + size + athleticism combo more than I value Goff's deep ball accuracy + read and fire + seemingly more refined mental game. Personally, I don't see Wentz locking on to his primary read more than I see it in any other prospect, so I'm not sure about that point.
I think there are a lot of logical fallacies flying around that because Wentz is more athletic, he is less mentally gifted. Or because Goff lacks in athleticism, he is inherently more of a technician. Neither of which is exactly the truth whatsoever, and I think they are being propagated by people who aren't watching any tape.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but a lack of helmet movement (which I don't necessarily see either) doesn't mean a lack of progression or an incapability of going through reads. Part of the reason I like Wentz is that NDSU runs a pro-style system, but implements a number of different concepts from varying offenses. One concept they run is the triangle read, and not only on rollouts.
In the JSU game, for example - first drive, it's 3rd and 9 and Wentz picks up 11 to what is seemingly just his first read. However, if you take a look, they are flooding that quarter of the field - a common aspect in spread offenses, especially with accurate quarterbacks. X and Y receivers smoke out the man coverage with fly routes, while Z runs a deep out past the marker and the backside TE runs across on a delayed deep drag as a last ditch effort to fill any vacated zone. All four of his options are in his field of vision, all four options serve a different purpose, yet there's no apparent "progression". His read is dependent on the coverage by the defense, not on any actual progression of routes. Man coverage - fly, then out, then the flood. Zone coverage - the inside fly, then the drag.
There's multiple examples of this exact concept run by NDSU, which I believe is giving off the impression that Wentz "locks on" to his primary read - when that's not necessarily the case. Is he as polished as Goff...no. But that in no way means he's less cerebral, nor does it mean he'll be a worse pro.
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I think it's all a smokescreen in order to devalue the #1 pick, giving teams like Dallas the false idea that they can get Goff @ #4.
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... and I am on record as not being a Favre fan. That said, I cannot say watching Wentz brings Favre to mind so his fav QB matters about as much as his favorite color.
The link is dead. I get a "Sorry, that page doesn't exist" message.
Totally agree on the independence of variables... these are not Xbox QBs with sliders and only so many attribute points to distribute.
Also acknowledge the limitations in inferring reads/progressions or lack thereof in a broadcast tape. My feel is based in part on the number of forced throws when any duress was minimal. I'll look for the play you detailed next session.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
oh god i'm seeing Farve's name thrown around now. Can I nominate Camp wentz and camp goff be renamed to camp dumbass A and dumbass B?
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I think where we all agree on liking Farve might not have been his QB style, but his in-game attitude.
The guy loves football. He took great joy in his team mates surrounding him and genuinely appeared like a big kid at the playground. Which in and of itself, is something I rather admire. When you see someone like that where they have such a passion for their craft, it brings a smile to ones face.
He may have been a gunslinger with a penchant for the damning turnover, but it was a joy watching Brett Farve play the game.
I wouldn't mind a QB with something of a similar mentality.
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oh god i'm seeing Farve's name thrown around now. Can I nominate Camp wentz and camp goff be renamed to camp dumbass A and dumbass B?
oh god i'm seeing Farve's name thrown around now. Can I nominate Camp wentz and camp goff be renamed to camp dumbass A and dumbass B?
Only if you can find a second...
I wouldn't mind a QB with something of a similar mentality.
Isn't one still on the roster?
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... and I am on record as not being a Favre fan. That said, I cannot say watching Wentz brings Favre to mind so his fav QB matters about as much as his favorite color.
The link is dead. I get a "Sorry, that page doesn't exist" message.
Totally agree on the independence of variables... these are not Xbox QBs with sliders and only so many attribute points to distribute.
Also acknowledge the limitations in inferring reads/progressions or lack thereof in a broadcast tape. My feel is based in part on the number of forced throws when any duress was minimal. I'll look for the play you detailed next session.
... and I am on record as not being a Favre fan. That said, I cannot say watching Wentz brings Favre to mind so his fav QB matters about as much as his favorite color.
The link is dead. I get a "Sorry, that page doesn't exist" message.
Totally agree on the independence of variables... these are not Xbox QBs with sliders and only so many attribute points to distribute.
Also acknowledge the limitations in inferring reads/progressions or lack thereof in a broadcast tape. My feel is based in part on the number of forced throws when any duress was minimal. I'll look for the play you detailed next session.
Shit. Here: https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/692744502583390209
oh god i'm seeing Farve's name thrown around now. Can I nominate Camp wentz and camp goff be renamed to camp dumbass A and dumbass B?
Context.
I think where we all agree on liking Farve might not have been his QB style, but his in-game attitude.
The guy loves football. He took great joy in his team mates surrounding him and genuinely appeared like a big kid at the playground. Which in and of itself, is something I rather admire. When you see someone like that where they have such a passion for their craft, it brings a smile to ones face.
He may have been a gunslinger with a penchant for the damning turnover, but it was a joy watching Brett Farve play the game.
I wouldn't mind a QB with something of a similar mentality.
Exactly. It's like watching Cam Newton today. That dude is literally just a big kid playing a game out there and genuinely having fun. Of course, it helps when you're winning...
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
... and I am on record as not being a Favre fan. That said, I cannot say watching Wentz brings Favre to mind so his fav QB matters about as much as his favorite color.
The link is dead. I get a "Sorry, that page doesn't exist" message.
Totally agree on the independence of variables... these are not Xbox QBs with sliders and only so many attribute points to distribute.
Also acknowledge the limitations in inferring reads/progressions or lack thereof in a broadcast tape. My feel is based in part on the number of forced throws when any duress was minimal. I'll look for the play you detailed next session.
Shit. Here: https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/692744502583390209
oh god i'm seeing Farve's name thrown around now. Can I nominate Camp wentz and camp goff be renamed to camp dumbass A and dumbass B?
Context.
I think where we all agree on liking Farve might not have been his QB style, but his in-game attitude.
The guy loves football. He took great joy in his team mates surrounding him and genuinely appeared like a big kid at the playground. Which in and of itself, is something I rather admire. When you see someone like that where they have such a passion for their craft, it brings a smile to ones face.
He may have been a gunslinger with a penchant for the damning turnover, but it was a joy watching Brett Farve play the game.
I wouldn't mind a QB with something of a similar mentality.
Exactly. It's like watching Cam Newton today. That dude is literally just a big kid playing a game out there and genuinely having fun. Of course, it helps when you're winning...
Shit. Here: https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/692744502583390209
Got it... chuckled at the "bluffing" count as I scrolled down the page...
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No exactly. I feel they're almost equal prospects of the moment. However I do believe Wentz will ultimately be the better finished product.
tia, respect the hell out of your football opinions, but just don't see this one. Everything I see says that between his football ears Wentz is not close to Goff and that Goff is "there".
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
I was looking at draft order + needs + draft prospects and trying to figure out what team would want to trade up to No. 2, and why would they need to.
Haven't been able to come up with a scenario that nets the Browns a trade down
Ultimately depends upon how many elite prospects are in the draft and the distance between them and the 2nd best prospects for a given position, doesn't it?
Take Bosa, the most popular "elite" around here who plays at a high-value position. What matters as much or more than whether he really is elite or not is how far Buckner is behind him. If Buckner is close and Bosa goes #1 to TN, then the #2's value jumps immediately as the next best DE (Dodd?) is well behind.
The other non-QB that jumps at me is Jack at OLB. Due to size questions I still have trouble seeing a use that sets his value high, but if he rises as high as some have him he becomes a very valuable commodity due to Smith's knee.
Other candidates may emerge from OT and CB, but to my eye there are too many very good candidates at these positions for anything less than generationally elite prospects to separate themselves.
tia, respect the hell out of your football opinions, but just don't see this one. Everything I see says that between his football ears Wentz is not close to Goff and that Goff is "there".
And every failure at QB we have suffered since "the reconstruction" has been between the ears. I'm not willing to take that chance again.
Ultimately depends upon how many elite prospects are in the draft and the distance between them and the 2nd best prospects for a given position, doesn't it?
Take Bosa, the most popular "elite" around here who plays at a high-value position. What matters as much or more than whether he really is elite or not is how far Buckner is behind him. If Buckner is close and Bosa goes #1 to TN, then the #2's value jumps immediately as the next best DE (Dodd?) is well behind.
The other non-QB that jumps at me is Jack at OLB. Due to size questions I still have trouble seeing a use that sets his value high, but if he rises as high as some have him he becomes a very valuable commodity due to Smith's knee.
Other candidates may emerge from OT and CB, but to my eye there are too many very good candidates at these positions for anything less than generationally elite prospects to separate themselves.
I don't see teams giving or wanting to give up multiple first round picks for either of those guys. And Bosa (not even close for Jack) is as close to "Generationally elite" as there are from what I have seen.
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To weigh in on the whole "reaching" debate, I feel like the one position you can and should do that for in the draft is someone you think is a franchise QB. I know, but what about insert guy who didn't work out, RG3!. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of QB's don't work out, and sometimes you get lucky and a guy like Carr falls. But sometimes you take a chance and get a seemingly franchise caliber QB like the Jags have with Bortles.
If I've said it once I've said it 1000 times. The reason the Browns have stunk so bad is because they make terrible choices in drafting QB's. That can be with the first pick, the 22nd pick (Dear Jesus on that damn number), the 3rd round, the fifth round, it doesn't matter. I get the counterargument, but missing on a franchise guy is going to set your team back no matter when he's drafted. But the fact of the matter is, without a franchise QB you aren't winning jack shit in the NFL and it's worth taking a risk on that position. You can draft 10 Joey Bosas and even maybe eclipse the playoffs but the Texans are a harsh reality of how that plays out every time.
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... and I am on record as not being a Favre fan. That said, I cannot say watching Wentz brings Favre to mind so his fav QB matters about as much as his favorite color.
The link is dead. I get a "Sorry, that page doesn't exist" message.
Totally agree on the independence of variables... these are not Xbox QBs with sliders and only so many attribute points to distribute.
Also acknowledge the limitations in inferring reads/progressions or lack thereof in a broadcast tape. My feel is based in part on the number of forced throws when any duress was minimal. I'll look for the play you detailed next session.
Shit. Here: https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/692744502583390209
oh god i'm seeing Farve's name thrown around now. Can I nominate Camp wentz and camp goff be renamed to camp dumbass A and dumbass B?
Context.
I think where we all agree on liking Farve might not have been his QB style, but his in-game attitude.
The guy loves football. He took great joy in his team mates surrounding him and genuinely appeared like a big kid at the playground. Which in and of itself, is something I rather admire. When you see someone like that where they have such a passion for their craft, it brings a smile to ones face.
He may have been a gunslinger with a penchant for the damning turnover, but it was a joy watching Brett Farve play the game.
I wouldn't mind a QB with something of a similar mentality.
Exactly. It's like watching Cam Newton today. That dude is literally just a big kid playing a game out there and genuinely having fun. Of course, it helps when you're winning...
Shit. Here: https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout/status/692744502583390209
Context.
Exactly. It's like watching Cam Newton today. That dude is literally just a big kid playing a game out there and genuinely having fun. Of course, it helps when you're winning...
Cam in Carolina is known as a 50% Farve in fun & 50% Muhammad Ali cause he's gonna tell you threw emotions. Enjoy. You were close.
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends
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