Camp Wentz- Starts here.
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Wentz may objectively have the higher ceiling, but if he's not ready to start immediately - and at some point this season he'll have to start, you can be sure of that - there's a very good chance he gets destroyed before he can reach that ceiling. If Goff, as he appears to be, is ready to start on day 1, but maybe doesn't have a HoF ceiling, he's still more likely to have success with the browns than Wentz.
Just my 2p.
Wentz may objectively have the higher ceiling...
I know it's not necessarily your position, but I'd like someone to make this case... and I'll settle for subjectively...
For a long time I've conceded it, but the more I look, the less obvious this is given that I see Goff's floor as having already cleared the greatest hurdle pro QBs must hurdle.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Wentz may objectively have the higher ceiling...
I know it's not necessarily your position, but I'd like someone to make this case... and I'll settle for subjectively...
For a long time I've conceded it, but the more I look, the less obvious this is given that I see Goff's floor as having already cleared the greatest hurdle pro QBs must hurdle.
I know it's not necessarily your position, but I'd like someone to make this case... and I'll settle for subjectively...
For a long time I've conceded it, but the more I look, the less obvious this is given that I see Goff's floor as having already cleared the greatest hurdle pro QBs must hurdle.
For me Goff's floor is Alex Smith/Andy Dalton. But of course this is always subjective.
As for Wentz' ceiling, who knows.
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I know it's not necessarily your position, but I'd like someone to make this case... and I'll settle for subjectively...
For a long time I've conceded it, but the more I look, the less obvious this is given that I see Goff's floor as having already cleared the greatest hurdle pro QBs must hurdle.
For me Goff's floor is Alex Smith/Andy Dalton. But of course this is always subjective.
As for Wentz' ceiling, who knows.
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@cambridgeho said:
Caron #2 then Braxton at #31. Let them develope and grow together.
What could possibly go wrong...
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Yes ignore the pre injury RG3 and look at 2014 when he played like absolute garbage and 2015 where he never sniffed the field.You mean ignore RG3's pro-bowl, rookie of the year time and only look at those years where he's not played? Sure. Same could be said of Austin Davis or Brandon Weeden.
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Wentz may objectively have the higher ceiling, but if he's not ready to start immediately - and at some point this season he'll have to start, you can be sure of that - there's a very good chance he gets destroyed before he can reach that ceiling. If Goff, as he appears to be, is ready to start on day 1, but maybe doesn't have a HoF ceiling, he's still more likely to have success with the browns than Wentz.
Just my 2p.
Wentz may objectively have the higher ceiling, but if he's not ready to start immediately - and at some point this season he'll have to start, you can be sure of that - there's a very good chance he gets destroyed before he can reach that ceiling. If Goff, as he appears to be, is ready to start on day 1, but maybe doesn't have a HoF ceiling, he's still more likely to have success with the browns than Wentz.
Just my 2p.
Really think Hue knows he could coach Goff or Wentz. (not comparing just thinking) Goff as (Marriota) could not stay on field
with continued hits. Wentz as (Winston) with size absorbed same hits but stayed on field. But is that worth passing on Goff's anticipation, level of competition and better on touch passes? Sure Goff took some hits @ Cal with no OL imo. Wentz had arm trouble in HS baseball & now coming off a wrist. Hits at the next level, It maybe Wentz. Tuff call.
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
Speaking of RG3, him to SF makes too much sense not to happen.
For some reason, SF will keep Kaepernick. RG3 won't be going to SF.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Wentz may objectively have the higher ceiling, but if he's not ready to start immediately - and at some point this season he'll have to start, you can be sure of that - there's a very good chance he gets destroyed before he can reach that ceiling. If Goff, as he appears to be, is ready to start on day 1, but maybe doesn't have a HoF ceiling, he's still more likely to have success with the browns than Wentz.
Just my 2p.
Really think Hue knows he could coach Goff or Wentz. (not comparing just thinking) Goff as (Marriota) could not stay on field
with continued hits. Wentz as (Winston) with size absorbed same hits but stayed on field. But is that worth passing on Goff's anticipation, level of competition and better on touch passes? Sure Goff took some hits @ Cal with no OL imo. Wentz had arm trouble in HS baseball & now coming off a wrist. Hits at the next level, It maybe Wentz. Tuff call.
But is that worth passing on Goff's anticipation,
level of competition
touch passes?
1) Good question. Probably Goff's best quality, IMO.
2) Doesn't matter whatsoever.
3) Not true whatsoever.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Speaking of RG3, him to SF makes too much sense not to happen.
For some reason, SF will keep Kaepernick. RG3 won't be going to SF.
For some reason, SF will keep Kaepernick. RG3 won't be going to SF.
I don't trust the media & trust the 49ers braintrust even less, so...
Most of all, I really don't care what the 49ers do.Mike
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1) Good question. Probably Goff's best quality, IMO.
2) Doesn't matter whatsoever. (Does when your comparing Goff's to Wentz Competition level. But Flaco made it..)
3) Not true whatsoever. (Touch on pass & ball location over defenders on outs & swings. I like Goff when it gets faster. Trust Hue can make Wentz better tough.)
We Bark, & somewhat disagree but that's ok..
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1) Good question. Probably Goff's best quality, IMO.
2) Doesn't matter whatsoever. (Does when your comparing Goff's to Wentz Competition level. But Flaco made it..)
3) Not true whatsoever. (Touch on pass & ball location over defenders on outs & swings. I like Goff when it gets faster. Trust Hue can make Wentz better tough.)
We Bark, & somewhat disagree but that's ok..
We Bark, & somewhat disagree but that's ok..
The only instances I think competition level truly matters is when a guy's ONLY claim to fame is the gaudy numbers he put up against inferior talent - which isn't the case with Wentz, nor was it with Flacco or Ben, for that matter. Similarly, the argument of "how good can the guy be if no schools offered him" is a fallacy (though it's not an argument you were making, it was just a train of though thing).
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We Bark, & somewhat disagree but that's ok..
The only instances I think competition level truly matters is when a guy's ONLY claim to fame is the gaudy numbers he put up against inferior talent - which isn't the case with Wentz, nor was it with Flacco or Ben, for that matter. Similarly, the argument of "how good can the guy be if no schools offered him" is a fallacy (though it's not an argument you were making, it was just a train of though thing).
The only instances I think competition level truly matters is when a guy's ONLY claim to fame is the gaudy numbers he put up against inferior talent -
Agree it's not a make or break, all or nothing factor, but competition level makes it harder to evaluate any position on the field. You just can't gauge performance as well... greater extrapolation.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The only instances I think competition level truly matters is when a guy's ONLY claim to fame is the gaudy numbers he put up against inferior talent -
Agree it's not a make or break, all or nothing factor, but competition level makes it harder to evaluate any position on the field. You just can't gauge performance as well... greater extrapolation.
I don't think "performance" in the traditional sense is what should be gauged anyway. A guy throws for a hundred TD's an no INT's? Cool...doesn't change the way mustard tastes. I'd take a prospect who never threw a touchdown pass in his life if he checked the right boxes.Agree it's not a make or break, all or nothing factor, but competition level makes it harder to evaluate any position on the field. You just can't gauge performance as well... greater extrapolation.
Personally, I couldn't care less the outcome of a play when it comes to QB. Once the ball is thrown, I go to the next play anyway. In some cases, lack of playmakers can be a benefit - less chance of reliance on a "crutch".
Competition level only matters to me for one reason:
1) Why is the guy there? Why isn't he at another, bigger program? Was he a four-year QB who went unscouted? Was he a transition from another position? Did he have a bunch of injuries? Was he too small/too slow?
If there are legitimate reasons a guy is at a small school, it shouldn't be a knock on him whatsoever.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
I don't think "performance" in the traditional sense is what should be gauged anyway. A guy throws for a hundred TD's an no INT's? Cool...doesn't change the way mustard tastes. I'd take a prospect who never threw a touchdown pass in his life if he checked the right boxes.Agree it's not a make or break, all or nothing factor, but competition level makes it harder to evaluate any position on the field. You just can't gauge performance as well... greater extrapolation.
Personally, I couldn't care less the outcome of a play when it comes to QB. Once the ball is thrown, I go to the next play anyway. In some cases, lack of playmakers can be a benefit - less chance of reliance on a "crutch".
Competition level only matters to me for one reason:
1) Why is the guy there? Why isn't he at another, bigger program? Was he a four-year QB who went unscouted? Was he a transition from another position? Did he have a bunch of injuries? Was he too small/too slow?
If there are legitimate reasons a guy is at a small school, it shouldn't be a knock on him whatsoever.
Exactly. This is how I see it - If you rated the different levels of football on a scale of 100, with 1 being public high school and 100 being the NFL, division 1-AA would rank around 25 while division 1 would come in at around 35. Every single one of these players have HUGE leaps in level of competition coming. The major benefits of division 1 preparing guys for the pros doesnt really do it for the QBs - Training facilities and coaching. Division 1 colleges do little to no better at training QBs for the NFL than ND state. Level of competition does help but like I said, all these guys have huge jumps ahead.I don't think "performance" in the traditional sense is what should be gauged anyway. A guy throws for a hundred TD's an no INT's? Cool...doesn't change the way mustard tastes. I'd take a prospect who never threw a touchdown pass in his life if he checked the right boxes.
Personally, I couldn't care less the outcome of a play when it comes to QB. Once the ball is thrown, I go to the next play anyway. In some cases, lack of playmakers can be a benefit - less chance of reliance on a "crutch".
Competition level only matters to me for one reason:
1) Why is the guy there? Why isn't he at another, bigger program? Was he a four-year QB who went unscouted? Was he a transition from another position? Did he have a bunch of injuries? Was he too small/too slow?
If there are legitimate reasons a guy is at a small school, it shouldn't be a knock on him whatsoever.
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I don't think "performance" in the traditional sense is what should be gauged anyway. A guy throws for a hundred TD's an no INT's? Cool...doesn't change the way mustard tastes. I'd take a prospect who never threw a touchdown pass in his life if he checked the right boxes.Agree it's not a make or break, all or nothing factor, but competition level makes it harder to evaluate any position on the field. You just can't gauge performance as well... greater extrapolation.
Personally, I couldn't care less the outcome of a play when it comes to QB. Once the ball is thrown, I go to the next play anyway. In some cases, lack of playmakers can be a benefit - less chance of reliance on a "crutch".
Competition level only matters to me for one reason:
1) Why is the guy there? Why isn't he at another, bigger program? Was he a four-year QB who went unscouted? Was he a transition from another position? Did he have a bunch of injuries? Was he too small/too slow?
If there are legitimate reasons a guy is at a small school, it shouldn't be a knock on him whatsoever.
I don't think "performance" in the traditional sense is what should be gauged anyway. A guy throws for a hundred TD's an no INT's? Cool...doesn't change the way mustard tastes. I'd take a prospect who never threw a touchdown pass in his life if he checked the right boxes.
Personally, I couldn't care less the outcome of a play when it comes to QB. Once the ball is thrown, I go to the next play anyway. In some cases, lack of playmakers can be a benefit - less chance of reliance on a "crutch".
Competition level only matters to me for one reason:
1) Why is the guy there? Why isn't he at another, bigger program? Was he a four-year QB who went unscouted? Was he a transition from another position? Did he have a bunch of injuries? Was he too small/too slow?
If there are legitimate reasons a guy is at a small school, it shouldn't be a knock on him whatsoever.
Cumulative stats are not even close to what I meant by "performance". I am talking about game speed. I am talking about seeing more zones because less talented DBs lack cover skills... having more time because less athletic bigs don't have rush skills. You have to extrapolate further to get to the NFL level.
And the above is a factor not simply because of the fall off in quality of the FCS. It is a factor because clearly NDSU has a recipe that has allowed them to outclass the division.
Goff's ball placement and accuracy dip when he speeds it up. Wentz has the better arm without question
By "speeds up" do you mean throws harder?
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Did not see that at all, Mike...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Did not see that at all, Mike...
Me either. I heard someone else questioned his arm strength when the female commentator reported what some front offices/teams/coaches were saying. I haven't seen any evidence of that either.
Goff has an ideal starting point for an NFL team to tap.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I heard that Goff eased questions of his arm strength by having good velocity, I didn't see anything really wrong with it - though people aren't gushing over it as much as they are wentz's arm.
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