"Not At All" Hard to Leave Cleveland (Benjamin)
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Hartline when not injured was more consistently open than anyone except Barny. I would not lump him in with the rest of those unproductive receivers.
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for the record fwiw i don't believe in voodoo, or Hanukkah.
Benjamin coulda easily been like, "there will always be fond memories from Cleveland that I will take with me, but I'm ready to start a new chapter"...or ANYTHING besides how he put it.
he knew what he was saying, and he was well aware he may be viewed as a jerk and did not care. we're in his rearview mirror, and now he's in mine.
until that comment i had planned on casually following his career in SD. call me fickle.
It sounded to me like he wanted to be paid by the team he blew his knee out for and came back 1 year later to lead our WR Corps with 17.4 yards per catch and TD receptions in 2014 (via part time duty) and then lead the WR Corps in receptions, first downs, TDs, ypc, and yards in 2015 at a 4th round salary while WRs like Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins (all completely worthless in 2015) made all the money in the WR Corps. So which guy gets told he's not worth keeping? Let's not pretend if we were in his shoes watching who's getting the tenure around here - we wouldn't feel just as frustrated or unappreciated.
All I keep reading is -"he's only a #2 WR or a #3 WR at best." That's fine. The debate starts at - then why was he easily our #1 WR in 2015? We were paying generous FA $ for guys to handle all that stuff but couldn't. The only guy from our 2015 WR Corps advertising best football ahead was Benjamin. The same guy making the least money so he's the bad guy in here. When Dwayne Bowe leaves here complimenting Cleveland for their generosity and the fan base for their loyalty - he'll be a terrific guy. And don't forget, Manziel said the fans are great...
I'm glad nobody was worried about how much money Bowe, Hawkins and Harline made here.
Not to keep harping on the Benji thing, but lets do an "honest" evaluation of what Benji and those others have done to earn their pay.....
It sounded to me like he wanted to be paid by the team he blew his knee out for and came back 1 year later to lead our WR Corps with 17.4 yards per catch and TD receptions in 2014 (via part time duty)
Benji "led the team in TD's" with 3.....three Td's does not even make a blip on the stats chart for an NFL WR......its an indictment on how poor our offense was, as opposed to how great Benji was.....and he played 16 games, so not really part time, was it?.....and if he didnt start enough to be full time, why was that?.....perhaps he wasnt good enough to beat out udfa Gabriel and Hawkins?
and then lead the WR Corps in receptions, first downs, TDs, ypc, and yards in 2015 at a 4th round salary while WRs like Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins (all completely worthless in 2015) made all the money in the WR Corps.
I think we can all agree that Bowe was a bust, though he was signed at a higher amount because he did have a 10 year history of production. Hartline and Hawkins both suffered injuries and missed plenty of games, which opened things up for Benji to get more starts and WAY more targets. The reason he was on a fourth round salary is because he was a fourth round pick.....and up until 2015, he played like it(or worse). Nothing he did PRIOR to 2015 indicated he was worth a penny more and, as we both know, many people didnt even have him making the team in 2015. So, his production was not expected, it was a surprise. Hartline and Hawkins(and Bowe) all earned their stripes and the salaries they were being paid, so to say Benji shold have been paid equal or more would be unfair to those guys and their past production.
In fact, Hawk led the team the year before, so by that standard, should he not have a big contract too? Hart and Bowe both have multiple 1000 yard seasons, which Benji has never done, so should they be paid less?.....because, right now, they are.....
So which guy gets told he's not worth keeping?
The only guy that was negotiating and the only guy who wanted $6 million a year. Both Hawkins and Hartline have produced more, for a longer time, yet they signed for 1/2 of what Benji was asking.....
Let's not pretend if we were in his shoes watching who's getting the tenure around here - we wouldn't feel just as frustrated or unappreciated.
Again....the other guys were already signed...of course they are staying. It was Benji who had the option to leave and he took it. Word is that the Browns offered him $4mil, so that would have paid him more than both Hart and Hawk.....both of whom have a stronger & longer history of production
All I keep reading is -"he's only a #2 WR or a #3 WR at best." That's fine. The debate starts at - then why was he easily our #1 WR in 2015?
1) He's the one who didnt get hurt, and when he did in 2013, his production hit rock bottom for 2 seasons......2) He had the most targets......and, he was still less productive than our TE in yards, catches and TD's//////who wasnt making much dough either
And Id point out that Barnidge out played Benji and signed a new contract right away.....for way less than Benji did....and Benji could have done just the same way way back and had the same love and acceptance that Barny is getting now......
We were paying generous FA $ for guys to handle all that stuff but couldn't. The only guy from our 2015 WR Corps advertising best football ahead was Benjamin.
Both Hawk and Hart are making modest amounts and Benji WOULD HAVE been the highest paid WR on the team had he signed....(less Bowe, if he stays)
I'm glad nobody was worried about how much money Bowe, Hawkins and Harline made here.
Um...EVERYBODY has been concerned about the Bowe contract all along....where have you been?????......Hart and Hawk both signed for reasonable money....Benji didnt....
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Very well stated Mud.
Very well stated Mud.
Thank you....
And, I forgot to add that I keep hearing we should keep Benji because he was homegrown talent, as if "getting drafted" deserves some type of reward. I wonder if he could have picked where he went, if he would have picked Cleveland......because both Hartline and Hawkins did just that......and for less money too
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Very well stated Mud.
Thank you....
And, I forgot to add that I keep hearing we should keep Benji because he was homegrown talent, as if "getting drafted" deserves some type of reward. I wonder if he could have picked where he went, if he would have picked Cleveland......because both Hartline and Hawkins did just that......and for less money too
Thank you....
And, I forgot to add that I keep hearing we should keep Benji because he was homegrown talent, as if "getting drafted" deserves some type of reward. I wonder if he could have picked where he went, if he would have picked Cleveland......because both Hartline and Hawkins did just that......and for less money too
Getting drafted doesn't deserve a reward, but a good strategy for continued success is to keep players that have performed well for you, that you know and know your system, rather than take what is always a gamble on players from other teams that have no such history.
Of course, you need a stable system for that logic to apply, so here's hoping we can at least get that.
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Fuck the players that want to leave. It's that simple.
Fuck the players that want to leave. It's that simple.
^This.
Lone exception is Brian Sipe.
Model wanted to start Paul Fucking McDonald, so can't blame him for taking Trumps millions.
Zombo
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for the record fwiw i don't believe in voodoo, or Hanukkah.
Benjamin coulda easily been like, "there will always be fond memories from Cleveland that I will take with me, but I'm ready to start a new chapter"...or ANYTHING besides how he put it.
he knew what he was saying, and he was well aware he may be viewed as a jerk and did not care. we're in his rearview mirror, and now he's in mine.
until that comment i had planned on casually following his career in SD. call me fickle.
It sounded to me like he wanted to be paid by the team he blew his knee out for and came back 1 year later to lead our WR Corps with 17.4 yards per catch and TD receptions in 2014 (via part time duty) and then lead the WR Corps in receptions, first downs, TDs, ypc, and yards in 2015 at a 4th round salary while WRs like Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins (all completely worthless in 2015) made all the money in the WR Corps. So which guy gets told he's not worth keeping? Let's not pretend if we were in his shoes watching who's getting the tenure around here - we wouldn't feel just as frustrated or unappreciated.
All I keep reading is -"he's only a #2 WR or a #3 WR at best." That's fine. The debate starts at - then why was he easily our #1 WR in 2015? We were paying generous FA $ for guys to handle all that stuff but couldn't. The only guy from our 2015 WR Corps advertising best football ahead was Benjamin. The same guy making the least money so he's the bad guy in here. When Dwayne Bowe leaves here complimenting Cleveland for their generosity and the fan base for their loyalty - he'll be a terrific guy. And don't forget, Manziel said the fans are great...
I'm glad nobody was worried about how much money Bowe, Hawkins and Harline made here.
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Fuck the players that want to leave. It's that simple.
^This.
Lone exception is Brian Sipe.
Model wanted to start Paul Fucking McDonald, so can't blame him for taking Trumps millions.
Zombo
Zombo said:
^This.
Lone exception is Brian Sipe.
Model wanted to start Paul Fucking McDonald, so can't blame him for taking Trumps millions.
Zombo
The future of the USA under President Trump? See the USFL. Defunct.
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Here's a little different interview from Benjamin over the weekend.
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Dear Benjamin,
I was joking around, and threw off on you badly, because I felt, at least by omission, that you were
throwing off on us fans. Later, in San Diego, you clarified that, and I appreciate it. It's obvious the Browns
just haven't been able to get it right, and you were a free agent. So, sorry about the misunderstanding, and
I appreciate that you were not referring to Browns fans when you said it was easy to leave Cleveland.
I apologize. Signed...Canton Mike Calfoxwc
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Dear Benjamin,
I was joking around, and threw off on you badly, because I felt, at least by omission, that you were
throwing off on us fans. Later, in San Diego, you clarified that, and I appreciate it. It's obvious the Browns
just haven't been able to get it right, and you were a free agent. So, sorry about the misunderstanding, and
I appreciate that you were not referring to Browns fans when you said it was easy to leave Cleveland.
I apologize. Signed...Canton Mike Calfoxwc
Dear Benjamin,
I was joking around, and threw off on you badly, because I felt, at least by omission, that you were
throwing off on us fans. Later, in San Diego, you clarified that, and I appreciate it. It's obvious the Browns
just haven't been able to get it right, and you were a free agent. So, sorry about the misunderstanding, and
I appreciate that you were not referring to Browns fans when you said it was easy to leave Cleveland.
I apologize. Signed...Canton Mike
Now, piss off and break your legs.
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only when they play the Browns....
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Flugel - I'm sure nobody would contradict you on Benjamin being better than Bowe and Hartline, and probably Hawkins. Yes, he was easily our best wide receiver this year, but that wasn't against stiff competition, and I doubt there'd be too many complaints from the coaches if none of those guys were back next year.
But that doesn't mean we should roll out a blank cheque, and just give him whatever he wants - the leading receiver on a 3-13 is nothing to shout about in itself. He didn't crack a thousand yards, didn't make the pro bowl, and only had one touchdown in games 5-through-16. I would like to have seen him back, sure, but not at any cost, and he ended up getting paid more by another team. It happens, we can pick up a replacement, or lean more on Hawkins (who was our leading receiver in 2014 with about 850 while benjamin got 300).
Flugel - I'm sure nobody would contradict you on Benjamin being better than Bowe and Hartline, and probably Hawkins. Yes, he was easily our best wide receiver this year, but that wasn't against stiff competition, and I doubt there'd be too many complaints from the coaches if none of those guys were back next year.
But that doesn't mean we should roll out a blank cheque, and just give him whatever he wants - the leading receiver on a 3-13 is nothing to shout about in itself. He didn't crack a thousand yards, didn't make the pro bowl, and only had one touchdown in games 5-through-16. I would like to have seen him back, sure, but not at any cost, and he ended up getting paid more by another team. It happens, we can pick up a replacement, or lean more on Hawkins (who was our leading receiver in 2014 with about 850 while benjamin got 300).
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your points. Yeah, I'm clearly outnumbered in this one.
When I look at players coming in or weighing whether I want us to keep a player- improvement and age matters big time. I want best football ahead instead of paying for rear view mirror. Benjamin is 26 years old playing the best football of his career and in our WR Corps.
Yes, we went 3-13 but the WRs making the biggest money to carry the load were Dwayne Bowe (turns 32 in Sept), Brian Hartline (turns 30 in Nov) and Andrew Hawkins (age 30). Here's a few extracts of articles inclusive of contracts and where they were in terms of why they needed our dysfunction in 2 of the 3 cases while we know Bowe's stats were progressively getting worse:
Hawkins' contract with the Browns is a front-loaded four-year deal worth $13.6 million, including $10.8 million over the first two years. It also includes $6.8 million guaranteed including a $3.8 million roster bonus this season – money that will count toward the Browns' cap this year but not in future seasons.
But for Hawkins, it wasn't just about finally getting his first substantial contract. In Cleveland, he believes he's found a chance to be more than a No. 4 receiver, which he had become with the Bengals.
The former Miami Dolphins wide receiver agreed to a two-year, $6 million contract with the Cleveland Browns, Hartline’s agent Drew Rosenhaus told ESPN’s Adam Schefter. Hartline had a diminished role with the Dolphins last season, catching just 39 passes for 474 yards and two touchdowns.
Dwayne Bowe signed a 2 year, $12,500,000 contract with the Cleveland Browns, including a $3,500,000 signing bonus, $9,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $6,250,000. In 2016, Bowe will earn a base salary of $6,150,000 and a workout bonus of $100,000. Bowe has a cap hit of $8,000,000 while his dead money value is $4,600,000.
Benjamin lead our WR Corps with 68 receptions, 966 yards 14.2 ypc, 39 first downs and 5 TD receptions plus he returned punts and added 1 TD there from a 4th round salary. This was a guy that stayed out of trouble, overcame a brutal knee injury, and steadily improved throughout 4 different OCs in 4 years. Not sure I understand the hostilities some guys in here have toward him or those of us that appreciated his work ethic and progress.
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Flugel - I'm sure nobody would contradict you on Benjamin being better than Bowe and Hartline, and probably Hawkins. Yes, he was easily our best wide receiver this year, but that wasn't against stiff competition, and I doubt there'd be too many complaints from the coaches if none of those guys were back next year.
But that doesn't mean we should roll out a blank cheque, and just give him whatever he wants - the leading receiver on a 3-13 is nothing to shout about in itself. He didn't crack a thousand yards, didn't make the pro bowl, and only had one touchdown in games 5-through-16. I would like to have seen him back, sure, but not at any cost, and he ended up getting paid more by another team. It happens, we can pick up a replacement, or lean more on Hawkins (who was our leading receiver in 2014 with about 850 while benjamin got 300).
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your points. Yeah, I'm clearly outnumbered in this one.
When I look at players coming in or weighing whether I want us to keep a player- improvement and age matters big time. I want best football ahead instead of paying for rear view mirror. Benjamin is 26 years old playing the best football of his career and in our WR Corps.
Yes, we went 3-13 but the WRs making the biggest money to carry the load were Dwayne Bowe (turns 32 in Sept), Brian Hartline (turns 30 in Nov) and Andrew Hawkins (age 30). Here's a few extracts of articles inclusive of contracts and where they were in terms of why they needed our dysfunction in 2 of the 3 cases while we know Bowe's stats were progressively getting worse:
Hawkins' contract with the Browns is a front-loaded four-year deal worth $13.6 million, including $10.8 million over the first two years. It also includes $6.8 million guaranteed including a $3.8 million roster bonus this season – money that will count toward the Browns' cap this year but not in future seasons.
But for Hawkins, it wasn't just about finally getting his first substantial contract. In Cleveland, he believes he's found a chance to be more than a No. 4 receiver, which he had become with the Bengals.
The former Miami Dolphins wide receiver agreed to a two-year, $6 million contract with the Cleveland Browns, Hartline’s agent Drew Rosenhaus told ESPN’s Adam Schefter. Hartline had a diminished role with the Dolphins last season, catching just 39 passes for 474 yards and two touchdowns.
Dwayne Bowe signed a 2 year, $12,500,000 contract with the Cleveland Browns, including a $3,500,000 signing bonus, $9,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $6,250,000. In 2016, Bowe will earn a base salary of $6,150,000 and a workout bonus of $100,000. Bowe has a cap hit of $8,000,000 while his dead money value is $4,600,000.
Benjamin lead our WR Corps with 68 receptions, 966 yards 14.2 ypc, 39 first downs and 5 TD receptions plus he returned punts and added 1 TD there from a 4th round salary. This was a guy that stayed out of trouble, overcame a brutal knee injury, and steadily improved throughout 4 different OCs in 4 years. Not sure I understand the hostilities some guys in here have toward him or those of us that appreciated his work ethic and progress.
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate your points. Yeah, I'm clearly outnumbered in this one.
When I look at players coming in or weighing whether I want us to keep a player- improvement and age matters big time. I want best football ahead instead of paying for rear view mirror. Benjamin is 26 years old playing the best football of his career and in our WR Corps.
Yes, we went 3-13 but the WRs making the biggest money to carry the load were Dwayne Bowe (turns 32 in Sept), Brian Hartline (turns 30 in Nov) and Andrew Hawkins (age 30). Here's a few extracts of articles inclusive of contracts and where they were in terms of why they needed our dysfunction in 2 of the 3 cases while we know Bowe's stats were progressively getting worse:
Hawkins' contract with the Browns is a front-loaded four-year deal worth $13.6 million, including $10.8 million over the first two years. It also includes $6.8 million guaranteed including a $3.8 million roster bonus this season – money that will count toward the Browns' cap this year but not in future seasons.
But for Hawkins, it wasn't just about finally getting his first substantial contract. In Cleveland, he believes he's found a chance to be more than a No. 4 receiver, which he had become with the Bengals.
The former Miami Dolphins wide receiver agreed to a two-year, $6 million contract with the Cleveland Browns, Hartline’s agent Drew Rosenhaus told ESPN’s Adam Schefter. Hartline had a diminished role with the Dolphins last season, catching just 39 passes for 474 yards and two touchdowns.
Dwayne Bowe signed a 2 year, $12,500,000 contract with the Cleveland Browns, including a $3,500,000 signing bonus, $9,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $6,250,000. In 2016, Bowe will earn a base salary of $6,150,000 and a workout bonus of $100,000. Bowe has a cap hit of $8,000,000 while his dead money value is $4,600,000.
Benjamin lead our WR Corps with 68 receptions, 966 yards 14.2 ypc, 39 first downs and 5 TD receptions plus he returned punts and added 1 TD there from a 4th round salary. This was a guy that stayed out of trouble, overcame a brutal knee injury, and steadily improved throughout 4 different OCs in 4 years. Not sure I understand the hostilities some guys in here have toward him or those of us that appreciated his work ethic and progress.
Which begs the question.. Why is Bowe still on the roster?
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for the record fwiw i don't believe in voodoo, or Hanukkah.
Benjamin coulda easily been like, "there will always be fond memories from Cleveland that I will take with me, but I'm ready to start a new chapter"...or ANYTHING besides how he put it.
he knew what he was saying, and he was well aware he may be viewed as a jerk and did not care. we're in his rearview mirror, and now he's in mine.
until that comment i had planned on casually following his career in SD. call me fickle.
It sounded to me like he wanted to be paid by the team he blew his knee out for and came back 1 year later to lead our WR Corps with 17.4 yards per catch and TD receptions in 2014 (via part time duty) and then lead the WR Corps in receptions, first downs, TDs, ypc, and yards in 2015 at a 4th round salary while WRs like Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins (all completely worthless in 2015) made all the money in the WR Corps. So which guy gets told he's not worth keeping? Let's not pretend if we were in his shoes watching who's getting the tenure around here - we wouldn't feel just as frustrated or unappreciated.
All I keep reading is -"he's only a #2 WR or a #3 WR at best." That's fine. The debate starts at - then why was he easily our #1 WR in 2015? We were paying generous FA $ for guys to handle all that stuff but couldn't. The only guy from our 2015 WR Corps advertising best football ahead was Benjamin. The same guy making the least money so he's the bad guy in here. When Dwayne Bowe leaves here complimenting Cleveland for their generosity and the fan base for their loyalty - he'll be a terrific guy. And don't forget, Manziel said the fans are great...
I'm glad nobody was worried about how much money Bowe, Hawkins and Harline made here.
It sounded to me like he wanted to be paid by the team he blew his knee out for and came back 1 year later to lead our WR Corps with 17.4 yards per catch and TD receptions in 2014 (via part time duty) and then lead the WR Corps in receptions, first downs, TDs, ypc, and yards in 2015 at a 4th round salary while WRs like Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins (all completely worthless in 2015) made all the money in the WR Corps. So which guy gets told he's not worth keeping? Let's not pretend if we were in his shoes watching who's getting the tenure around here - we wouldn't feel just as frustrated or unappreciated.
All I keep reading is -"he's only a #2 WR or a #3 WR at best." That's fine. The debate starts at - then why was he easily our #1 WR in 2015? We were paying generous FA $ for guys to handle all that stuff but couldn't. The only guy from our 2015 WR Corps advertising best football ahead was Benjamin. The same guy making the least money so he's the bad guy in here. When Dwayne Bowe leaves here complimenting Cleveland for their generosity and the fan base for their loyalty - he'll be a terrific guy. And don't forget, Manziel said the fans are great...
I'm glad nobody was worried about how much money Bowe, Hawkins and Harline made here.
i don't begrudge the man his due, nor have i unappreciated him as some have in the past, including you Flugs. in fact i believe i was one of the posters that helped bring you back around to him.
i even made a post recently showing how he's only dropped something like 8 passes his entire career.
i wouldn't have minded if Sashi & Co. retained him, nor did i expect him to take a discount for us. if I were him i would have maximized my money as well.
it was his comment and his comment alone i took umbrage with. it felt completely unnecessary and like a cheap shot in my opinion.
how hard would it be to tweet after the fact--even now--and say that's not what he really meant? until that happens, he meant it and it was intentional.
EDIT: i'm glad he clarified.
--> teaching moment.
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sisky-see Mark O's link above. Benjy has amended it.
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thanks Homey, just saw that.
all's well that ends well.
in hindsight i very much like that Sashi didn't pony up 6M.
prediction: Hartline's gonna have a great 2016 season.
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I'm with Flugel on this & Benjamin is gone, so I'll post no more on this thread.
We lost our best 2015 WR, period. For this year, Hartline is a health ? & Gordon & Bowe are just BIG ??.
Mike
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we lost our best wide receiver last year the year before...and HOPEFULLY we are just about to get him back.
saying Benjamin was our best WR is about like saying Kruger was our best pass rusher, Bademosi was our best special teamer, or Crowell was our best RB. everything is relative.
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It sounded to me like he wanted to be paid by the team he blew his knee out for and came back 1 year later to lead our WR Corps with 17.4 yards per catch and TD receptions in 2014 (via part time duty) and then lead the WR Corps in receptions, first downs, TDs, ypc, and yards in 2015 at a 4th round salary while WRs like Bowe, Hartline, and Hawkins (all completely worthless in 2015) made all the money in the WR Corps. So which guy gets told he's not worth keeping? Let's not pretend if we were in his shoes watching who's getting the tenure around here - we wouldn't feel just as frustrated or unappreciated.
All I keep reading is -"he's only a #2 WR or a #3 WR at best." That's fine. The debate starts at - then why was he easily our #1 WR in 2015? We were paying generous FA $ for guys to handle all that stuff but couldn't. The only guy from our 2015 WR Corps advertising best football ahead was Benjamin. The same guy making the least money so he's the bad guy in here. When Dwayne Bowe leaves here complimenting Cleveland for their generosity and the fan base for their loyalty - he'll be a terrific guy. And don't forget, Manziel said the fans are great...
I'm glad nobody was worried about how much money Bowe, Hawkins and Harline made here.
i don't begrudge the man his due, nor have i unappreciated him as some have in the past, including you Flugs. in fact i believe i was one of the posters that helped bring you back around to him.
i even made a post recently showing how he's only dropped something like 8 passes his entire career.
i wouldn't have minded if Sashi & Co. retained him, nor did i expect him to take a discount for us. if I were him i would have maximized my money as well.
it was his comment and his comment alone i took umbrage with. it felt completely unnecessary and like a cheap shot in my opinion.
how hard would it be to tweet after the fact--even now--and say that's not what he really meant? until that happens, he meant it and it was intentional.
EDIT: i'm glad he clarified.
--> teaching moment.
i don't begrudge the man his due, nor have i unappreciated him as some have in the past, including you Flugs.
My recollection on the Benjamin subject is you got twisted nipples when someone said Flugel might be right about him when he was looking good in the preseason. You jumped in and said you were saying everything I had been saying well before I even came back to the board. If anything, people are tired of me praising him. That said, I didn't really start until about June or July.
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