We need a Hard Hitting Safety

Flugel

@atenears said:
Ahhh ... the 'dime-a-dozen' guy surfaces.
Rich has been telling me for years how the safety position doesn't matter.

Did these guys (below) make their name by being ankle-grabbers and holding on for bigger tougher guys to assist them on tackles, or did they seperate the receiver or running back from the ball, causing turn-overs, alligator arms, and boosting the morale of all their teammates by making the 'Big Hit' game-in and game-out?

Eric Turner

Don Rogers

Carnell Lake

Bob Sanders

Troy Polly

Ed Reed

Sean Taylor

Mike Brown

Ronnie Lott

Jack Tatum

Todd Bell

David Fulcher

John Lynch

Steve Atwater

These guys had as much to do with run support than they did coverage. Many of these guys could also be labeled 'ball hawks' but basically they had great football instincts, played farther off the ball than line-backers, and "erased mistakes" all over the field, making their clubs better. That is the exact recipe needed for this program, and always has been.

I LOVE that list - where have I seen it before? Just kidding - GOOD stuff in a great thread. Teams deep in the playoffs in the last few years have been there via BIG-PLAY guys like Bob Sanders, Ed Reed and Pollyneedsahaircut. Didn't Polly score the last TD on Baltimore? Taylor Mays LOOKED like alot of guys on that list - I was stunned and bummed when I saw he went back to USC for another year. MEN don't need to play against boys when they can play against MEN. Mays wants another year of playing with boys and all I can say to that is GOOSEFRABBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Tom F. (Like Skippy says, we need to get back to playing kill the guy with the ball. It's alot more attractive than watch us chase our tails)

? Aloysius

Here are highlight reels of some of the top safeties in this year's draft.

If you click on the prospect's name, you'll get a scouting report on the prospect. And if you click on the title of the clip, a larger, higher quality copy will open up in a new tab/window.

Louis Delmas, #9, Western Michigan

Patrick Chung, #15, Oregon

Stephen Hodge, #29, Boise State

Michael Hamlin, #25, Clemson

Courtney Greene, #36, Rutgers

William Moore, #1, Missouri

Chip Vaughn, #9, Wake Forest

Timugen

@ballpeen said:
I agree on safety, but unfortunately this isn't a very good draft for top safeties.
I want one, but I think it will need to be a later round player......Vaughn is a 3rd round prospect who looks pretty good.

Overall, I think next year is the year to think safety, and unless we improve a bunch, guys like Mays and Berry are perfect fits....though berry might be a top 5 pick...the guy is a beast.

I am already pimping that guy as our pick next year.

Wait a minute.

My eyes must deceive me.

Is this ballpeen actually taking into account players that will be available next year to influence who we should pick in this year's draft?

I'm pretty sure I remember Mr. Peen, just a few days ago, espousing the idea that you should NOT take into account next year's available players when considering who/what to select this year.

YtownBrownsBacker

@timugen said:
Wait a minute.
My eyes must deceive me.

Is this ballpeen actually taking into account players that will be available next year to influence who we should pick in this year's draft?

I'm pretty sure I remember Mr. Peen, just a few days ago, espousing the idea that you should NOT take into account next year's available players when considering who/what to select this year.

Personally, I think this is a very good draft at the Strong Safety position.

ATENEARS

Great post Aloysius. Thanks a lot for the video's and scouting reports ... I will try to make some time to go through them all tomorrow. Excellent piece!

? Aloysius

@ytownbrownsbacker said:
Personally, I think this is a very good draft at the Strong Safety position.

I disagree.

One of the things to take into account is that the top safety prospects are usually combo guys: physical enough to play in the box but also rangy enough to play centerfield. Other than Louis Delmas, there aren't any guys like that in this year's draft.

There are lot of pure strong safeties - guys who are either unproven or have deficient cover skills - but none talented enough to warrant serious first round consideration. Because of that, there may be a run on safeties in the second round, but how many of them actually deserve to go that high? Chung may be the best of the bunch, but I think even he's a slight reach talent-wise at #50.

If we didn't have a huge need at safety, I'd be all for taking a mid-Day Two flier on a guy like Courtney Greene (started off the season disastrously bad, then turned things around) or Stephen Hodge (tremendous hitter but wasn't really asked to play in coverage). But with a giant hole at strong safety, I'm not sure we can afford to go in that direction.

Oldcrow1945

2010. Berry or Mays. I don't even care which. Berry may be more polished and a better defender against the pass but I love Mays freakish size and speed.

I think either is a no brainer in 2010....The only problem is I'm thinking with the awful schedule the Browns play, we could be 7-9 or better and won't be in the running to grab either one of these guys

Tobalaz

You want to talk about hard hitting safeties?

Don't forget Chuck Cecil, that cat hit so hard he used to knock himself out and get fined for his hits.

Not bad at all for a scrawny little white boy.

Mr. T

We have needed a safety since Brian Russell was allowed to move to Seattle. The only guy who could shut Ocho Stinko up!

Chicopee John

@atenears said:
I've been stating this since we returned to the league and was met with resistence often by the 'dine-a-dozen' crowd.
The Cleveland Browns may have been of a Running Back mentality back in the Jim Brown, Leroy Kelly days ... but they left town in the E-Rocc era. Don Rogers may have been the difference in going to the show and not being able to make that last play, hell even Stevon Moore delivered the hits. Our last decade before leaving town was all about defensive back play, and we've established nothing since returning.

Since we've been back, we've had under-acheiving Linebackers which were exposed greatly by no presence behind them (plueazzze Sean Jones had one blip season).

Watching the NFL networks TOP-10 TACKLERS of All-time, it is amazing how many times they mention the phrase, 'GAME CHANGING HIT' and it was delivered by a Safety.

Let's quick dicking around and get back to the basics of inflicting pain to opposing team ball carriers and receivers. Let's start taking someones head off. Win or Lose, let's get tough again.

Glad you mentioned Stevon Moore, Stan.

For my money, I'd love to have had two Stevon Moore's rather than one Stevon Moore and one E Rock.

E Rock had one great year - not be be brushed aside - but spent most of his career making big hits AFTEER the receiver made the catch. Overrated in my book.

He met a tragic end.

YtownBrownsBacker

Aloysius said:
I disagree.
One of the things to take into account is that the top safety prospects are usually combo guys: physical enough to play in the box but also rangy enough to play centerfield. Other than Louis Delmas, there aren't any guys like that in this year's draft.

There are lot of pure strong safeties - guys who are either unproven or have deficient cover skills - but none talented enough to warrant serious first round consideration. Because of that, there may be a run on safeties in the second round, but how many of them actually deserve to go that high? Chung may be the best of the bunch, but I think even he's a slight reach talent-wise at #50.

If we didn't have a huge need at safety, I'd be all for taking a mid-Day Two flier on a guy like Courtney Greene (started off the season disastrously bad, then turned things around) or Stephen Hodge (tremendous hitter but wasn't really asked to play in coverage). But with a giant hole at strong safety, I'm not sure we can afford to go in that direction.

So, what you are saying is there is, except for Delmas, a whole bunch of Sean Jones's available in the second round. But, they are healthy and hit harder. Steuber's analysis of Moore says he has hard hitting tackling ability and he is very good defending in coverage. Never could accuse Sean Jones of being a good cover man. Chung and Vaughn are weak in coverage, but that doesn't mean they can't cover, they didn't have to in college. They played in the box or dropped into the middle in zone coverage. Neither of their teams played a lot of cover 2.

This draft doesn't have a Sean Taylor or Reed but it has 4 or 5 very solid guys that could step right in as a starter for us and many other teams and grow into stars in this league. As much negative as you can find there is a whole lot of positive about these guys.

? Masters

In fairness Y-town, Jones was good when he was roaming free in a zone. But terrible when asked to play man.

? Aloysius

@ytownbrownsbacker said:
So, what you are saying is there is, except for Delmas, a whole bunch of Sean Jones's available in the second round. But, they are healthy and hit harder.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but Jones actually was one of those combo guys. He was listed as a FS coming out of college and that's the position he's expected to play in Philly. Sure, injuries have affected his play, but I don't think playing better than a seriously hobbled Jones is anything to write home about.

Steuber's analysis of Moore says he has hard hitting tackling ability and he is very good defending in coverage. Never could accuse Sean Jones of being a good cover man.

If you go back & read scouting reports on Jones from when he was coming out of college, a lot of them talk about his great burst, body control, and fluid backpedal. A lot of good things were said about his coverage ability.

As for Moore - sorry, just don't see it. I know that some Mizzou fans criticize former DC/current Browns LB coach Matt Eberflus for playing him closer to the line this year. But it's not a good sign when a DB gets burned by slower receivers or is too tight-hipped to make plays in run support.

I'm kind of surprised that you like him so much; of all the prospects, he's the most similar to Sean Jones. As Mike Mayock says, Moore had a "Jekyll and Hyde" college career in which he looked like a top prospect his junior season but mostly played like a 5th rounder last year. That reminds me a lot of Jones.

Chung and Vaughn are weak in coverage, but that doesn't mean they can't cover, they didn't have to in college. They played in the box or dropped into the middle in zone coverage. Neither of their teams played a lot of cover 2

The first clip of Chung above shows him having some trouble in coverage. I think one of his biggest problems is that he doesn't change directions all too well.

Vaughn reportedly looked stiff during DB drills at his pro day. He also doesn't have great instincts, which hinders his ability to tap into his good athleticism.

This draft doesn't have a Sean Taylor or Reed but it has 4 or 5 very solid guys that could step right in as a starter for us and many other teams and grow into stars in this league. As much negative as you can find there is a whole lot of positive about these guys.

Just don't know who those 4 or 5 guys are. I guess you could start some of these guys immediately, but they're going to struggle like hell.

Just to add in an outside perspective, here's how theOBR's Brent "Sobo" Sobleski grades some of the top strong safety prospects:

Patrick Chung - #54 (mid-late 2nd round)
Kevin Ellison - #79 (mid 3rd round)
Stephen Hodge - #86 (mid-late 3rd round)
William Moore - #94 (late 3rd round)
Chip Vaughn - #118 (mid-late 4th round)
Michael Hamlin - #196 (early 7th round)
Courtney Greene - #290 (UDFA)

Sure, some of these guys will be taken higher than they're graded, but that was my point above - because the safety class is so weak, teams are going to reach in the 2nd for a guy who isn't a legit 2nd round talent.

YtownBrownsBacker

Aloysius said:
I know it doesn't seem like it, but Jones actually was one of those combo guys. He was listed as a FS coming out of college and that's the position he's expected to play in Philly. Sure, injuries have affected his play, but I don't think playing better than a seriously hobbled Jones is anything to write home about.
If you go back & read scouting reports on Jones from when he was coming out of college, a lot of them talk about his great burst, body control, and fluid backpedal. A lot of good things were said about his coverage ability.

As for Moore - sorry, just don't see it. I know that some Mizzou fans criticize former DC/current Browns LB coach Matt Eberflus for playing him closer to the line this year. But it's not a good sign when a DB gets burned by slower receivers or is too tight-hipped to make plays in run support.

I'm kind of surprised that you like him so much; of all the prospects, he's the most similar to Sean Jones. As Mike Mayock says, Moore had a "Jekyll and Hyde" college career in which he looked like a top prospect his junior season but mostly played like a 5th rounder last year. That reminds me a lot of Jones.

The first clip of Chung above shows him having some trouble in coverage. I think one of his biggest problems is that he doesn't change directions all too well.

Vaughn reportedly looked stiff during DB drills at his pro day. He also doesn't have great instincts, which hinders his ability to tap into his good athleticism.

Just don't know who those 4 or 5 guys are. I guess you could start some of these guys immediately, but they're going to struggle like hell.

Just to add in an outside perspective, here's how theOBR's Brent "Sobo" Sobleski grades some of the top strong safety prospects:

Patrick Chung - #54 (mid-late 2nd round)

Kevin Ellison - #79 (mid 3rd round)

Stephen Hodge - #86 (mid-late 3rd round)

William Moore - #94 (late 3rd round)

Chip Vaughn - #118 (mid-late 4th round)

Michael Hamlin - #196 (early 7th round)

Courtney Greene - #290 (UDFA)

Sure, some of these guys will be taken higher than they're graded, but that was my point above - because the safety class is so weak, teams are going to reach in the 2nd for a guy who isn't a legit 2nd round talent.

Well, this time of year you can get 10 different opinions of the draft status of these players. Some say Dalmas and Moore could be 1st rounders. So, we'll see how they fall and they end up players or not. Personally, Delmas, Moore, Chung and Vaughn are all better then Jones and would be a major upgrade.

For what it's worth, Scouts.com has William Moore as the #45 player in the whole draft and #1 safety in the draft. Of course that isn't counting guys like Jenkins that most likely will end up as a safety.

Delmas #53 player in the draft

Chung #68 player in the draft

So, opinions are wide ranging and speculative, at best. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. fftoolbox.com list Moore as a 1st round pick, draftcountdown.com list him as a 1st rounder, walterfootball.com say Delmas and Moore are late 1st rounders or top of 2nd round. Their mock has Chung going first and Delmas to Cleveland and Moore to Atlanta in round 2. ESPN has Delmas as the #30 player in the draft.

You can google and find 50 places and all have different opinions. Some list both Delmas and Moore as FS. Chung is a pure SS, but every site I looked at had all three gone by the end of round two.

Hey, JMO

YtownBrownsBacker

Masters said:
In fairness Y-town, Jones was good when he was roaming free in a zone. But terrible when asked to play man.

again, JMO, but Jones was a good SS when he had two good legs and never was a good cover guy. He hung McDonald and Wright out to dry way too many times last year when he couldn't get back to help in coverage. When he played deep in a cover 3 scheme he did do well but then again that isn't what you really need from a SS.

But, I respect your opinion.

? Aloysius

Sure, you can find varying opinions on these guys. The important thing is to find guys/sites you really respect and to take their opinions into account.

But I still don't see why you're high on all of these guys. Yes, beauty is in the eye of beholder, but when did these guys show you anything special? I've looked hard, and Delmas is the only one who's really impressed me. And because I haven't seen a lot of him, I can't really say whether he's going to be a good pro.

Moore, at times, looks like a solid player, but he also can look absolutely horrible. There's a reason why Geech doesn't think he's a first round type and why JD & others think he's a better fit at linebacker. He had a good combine and pro day, but that doesn't erase the 5th round play he exhibited last season.

Chung is a very good tackler, but I think his lack of size & explosion will prevent him from being an enforcer in the secondary type. He's a smaller James Sanders - adequate, but nothing special.

Because of that, I think some of the Day Two guys may offer better value. But - as I said - we may need to take a safety high. And that's unfortunate.

Oldcrow1945

Aloysius said:
.
But - as I said - we may need to take a safety high. And that's unfortunate.

Amen.

For me that is a shame when day 1 is solid through so many other positions.

Tobalaz

Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?

It's just when you're hurting all over and Adams did decent PLUS there's a good crop next draft it makes you wonder if we'll hold out one more year to snag one that's an "impact" player instead of just "good enough."

I'm sorry I just don't see a safety this draft that could fit that Polyneedsahaircut/ Ed Reed mold for us and just because you need something when you have a wide variety of needs you take the best players that have the best chance at becoming long term starters for you.

Oldcrow1945

@tobalaz said:
Anybody else here think there's a good chance EM might think Adams is good enough for now, pass on a safety in the draft and hope one gets cut on roster trimdowns we could use?

I think that makes a lot of sense.....There will have to be a decent SS available when teams make some cuts.

Although I still think they'll draft a safety for depth. Hopefully it's round 4 or 6 and not early.

I wish we had a 5th round pick I think MSU's Otis Wiley would be a nice 5th rounder.

Maybe EM likes Nick Sorenson?

? Aloysius

@oldcrow1945 said:
I wish we had a 5th round pick I think MSU's Otis Wiley would be a nice 5th rounder.

Interesting - he's a guy I've been trying to get a handle on. Seems like durability and consistency are big issues for him, but he has the talent to be a decent player.

His 40 time at his pro day was unimpressive (4.64), but that may not be such an issue. Mangini's got a history of drafting safeties who compensate for poor long speed by having good to great short area quickness. When he was DC in New England, they drafted James Sanders, who ran a 4.65 40 but also had a great 4.02 shuttle time. And when he took over in New York, he drafted Eric Smith, who ran a 4.63 40 at the Combine but had a freakish 3.97 shuttle time at his pro day.

There doesn't seem to be a guy who fits the same profile this year - Wiley's shuttle time was an average 4.34. Not sure if he plays with good short area quicks - my only memory is of him falling on his ass on the first play from scrimmage in the Florida Atlantic game, resulting in a TD. But I'm guessing he's a better player than that would seem to indicate.