2016 O-Line Draft: Offensive Tackles
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Except I think Young is going to be only an OG in the pros.
Probably a terrific OG. I don't see him staying at tackle.
But character, work ethic, and love for the game has to be there.
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True, but like Cam Irving, you can gain strength. Looking at Young's 40 times...
at left or right tackle...
do you think they come into play much at all? 5.2...5.4... does it matter?
Or is it pretty much unrelated to the player's ability to slide out in pass protection?
Inquiring, don't-know mind wants to know.
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lol... First, let me point out that Cam hasn't shown any strength gain as yet...
I don't ignore 40 times, but other measures are more predictive IMO, e.g., the 10-yd split, 20-yd shuttle and 3-cone.
But predictive drills only go so far. There is a "look" that better OT candidates share... a fluidity of movement to compliment their technique. Beavers' fluidity grabbed me the very first play I saw.
A lot of the OT vs. interior slot decision is height and arm length driven as well. Nothing wrong with an OG that moves well enough to play OT, but lacks length.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
You have Clark listed as an LSU guy, Tour. He went to Tech, which I know you know because you cited some of his games. Just letting you know.
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Great stuff as usual T. Have you had a look at our new RT,LT,LG Alvin Bailey? Seems like your still digging? (never a bad idea though)
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Great stuff as usual T. Have you had a look at our new RT,LT,LG Alvin Bailey? Seems like your still digging? (never a bad idea though)
Great stuff as usual T. Have you had a look at our new RT,LT,LG Alvin Bailey? Seems like your still digging? (never a bad idea though)
Thanks... as usual I can't claim "great", but it is definitely "stuff"...
Haven't checked out Bailey. Is there a site that cuts down NFL game tape?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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J. Kyle Murphy (Stanford) 6'6 305 http://www.nfldrafts...=2016&genpos=OT
Against NW: no kick... no technique... waist bender who got ripped alot... moves well and gets to 2nd level, but cannot track/sustain blocks... slow to no reaction to stunts. Estimate about a -10 grade for the first half.
Against UCLA; Kicking pretty well.... Had help almost entire 1st Qtr, run and pass. Opposite was content to lay on him... no challenge. Q2 went solo and fared well.... Did meet Clark 1-on-1 once on a run and got mauled.
Against Cal: Same as UCLA, better tech, but not challenged by his opposite. Feet looked better. Really burrowed and drove in a couple short-yardage situations between two OL in unbalanced look.
Bottom line: NW was 1st game of season so maybe KM improved, but maybe his NW opposite was a better player than UCLA or Cal had to offer. Hard to know, but can't see him as a late 3rd/early 4th cusp OT where DraftScout projects him. Would take Avery Young a round later.
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Except I think Young is going to be only an OG in the pros.
Probably a terrific OG. I don't see him staying at tackle.
But character, work ethic, and love for the game has to be there.
Except I think Young is going to be only an OG in the pros.
Probably a terrific OG. I don't see him staying at tackle.
But character, work ethic, and love for the game has to be there.
Sometimes the ultimate showstoppers with changing a tackle to a guard when enters the NFL is the ability/lackthereof to trap and pull. 2 examples that jump out at me are Gilkey and Lauvao. Both, were really drive blockers at the line of scrimmage in college. Trapping and pulling is an art that every big frame doesn't necessarily have. Eric Steinbach played Offensive Tackle at Iowa under Kirk Ferentz (who was our Oline Coach the last time we won a playoff game in the 90s) before he became a very efficient OG in the NFL. Robert Gallery, who also played for Ferentz, struggled as a Tackle but rallied his way into a comfortable niche at OG shortly thereafter. Steinbach was terrific at pulling and trapping as well as getting to the next tier of defense, something that would rub off on Alex Mack very early on in his career here.
As a former Guard way back in BC (Before Cellphones), our coach would always say you guys act bored with this stances and start stuff. Inevitably someone would ask how difficult is it to grasp this when we do it over and over and over? Then we would do Okie drills with David whipping Goliath's ass repeatedly without needing a sling shot. The we'd get treated to: "Too high out of stance? Welcome to the seat of your pants from the poet that wants you to know it!" Coach's favorite was busting our line for what's coming before we snapped the ball. He'd blow it dead during the QB cadence and say here comes a 48 quick pitch thanks to the dead give away from our OG's brand new stance with a lean this play. Or he'd say our Center wants his mother up in the top of the stands to know we're running to the right. Instinctive defensive players pick up on these pre-snap keys really easily. Relating this the Browns, every time Gilkey trapped or pulled - opponents had a defensive team meeting in our backfield. They picked it up on film and it turned out to be an easy pre-snap key. Another thing he was terrible at was his inability to stay tight to the line of scrimmage when he trapped. He bellied back and 1 time he clobbered our QB who was trying to sell a play action fake prior to handing off for the counter. Aside from bellying back, he had his head down. That doesn't happen in all cases; but it's the type of stuff you can get from inexperienced players on a position change that may not be best suited to play OG. Greco eventually became an efficient Guard here but that wasn't exactly immediate. Bitonio looks like he picked it up quicker than most so I feel like he's more of an exception to the rule at least in recent years here in Cleveland. 1 year later, we changed OCs and he struggled some albeit part of that was playing through/around injury. Love that kid! Moving forward, I would rather see us draft a true Guard mid-late that shows us on film he can trap and pull without tipping teams off. When you think about it, the run on guards usually starts much later than the run on tackles so this is a position you can steal later in the draft if you have a decent FO.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Excellent stuff, Mr. Flugels. ...need a campfire with Canton Mike and listen to you talk
about offensive line play !
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X. Ronnie Stanley (Notre Dame) 6'6 315 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=125299&draftyear=2016&genpos=OT
My first, head-scratching, "maybe he might be better inside???" candidate. Missing most major fundamental skills for OT. But he also tends to dance with run blocks rather than drive them, so how does that make him an inside candidate?
Early in 2015 he was crossing his feet instead of sliding to edge rushers. Did seem to overcome this deadly bad habit through the season, but still played with narrow stance in PassPro and added a weird back-peddle better suited for a DB. Has no kick step and bad knee flex.
Briefly flashed some decent chop and hand fighting in game vs. THE OSU, but played way too upright. In bowl game vs. Clemson he faced Lawson often and frequently looked overmatched. Really exposed his lack of athletic feet that both Tunsil and Decker have. Lawson threw a spin move at Stanley to which he responded with a fine form tackle.
Not sure where to place him, but definitely not in Round 1. For now he gets an "X" until I can see how low he drops on my "board". Likely a Day 2 guy, I think he needs a good combine to stay in Round 2. Have to see athletic numbers so know that if the technique comes, then so will a viable OL.
X. Ronnie Stanley (Notre Dame) 6'6 315 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=125299&draftyear=2016&genpos=OT
My first, head-scratching, "maybe he might be better inside???" candidate. Missing most major fundamental skills for OT. But he also tends to dance with run blocks rather than drive them, so how does that make him an inside candidate?
Early in 2015 he was crossing his feet instead of sliding to edge rushers. Did seem to overcome this deadly bad habit through the season, but still played with narrow stance in PassPro and added a weird back-peddle better suited for a DB. Has no kick step and bad knee flex.
Briefly flashed some decent chop and hand fighting in game vs. THE OSU, but played way too upright. In bowl game vs. Clemson he faced Lawson often and frequently looked overmatched. Really exposed his lack of athletic feet that both Tunsil and Decker have. Lawson threw a spin move at Stanley to which he responded with a fine form tackle.
Not sure where to place him, but definitely not in Round 1. For now he gets an "X" until I can see how low he drops on my "board". Likely a Day 2 guy, I think he needs a good combine to stay in Round 2. Have to see athletic numbers so know that if the technique comes, then so will a viable OL.
Nice work on this guy. He's got bad habits that won't be easy to break when the competition level gets even tougher. It feels like quite a few guys are really getting overrated this year. Athlon Sports' NFL Draft Guide has a mock draft (written before the Tits traded out) with Ronnie Stanley going 1st overall to them. Did I just discover where Farmer is working now? That, or the guy ranking the tackles and doing the mock draft was a ND grad/fan.
This is a very good year to trade back. It's an even better year to have voices of reason and research gurus from Harvard in our front office. We've already traded back once and I welcome another trade back conceivably with a team like the Tits that can afford to part with some picks in the top 100.
Here's a few mid to late round bargains I hope we consider and why:
1) ILB Tyler Matakevich from Temple. Very few ESPN kill shots, which might be the reason he's such a reliable form tackler aside from ideal 1st step instinct. After what we've witnessed I welcome just making the FREAKIN tackle and I don't feel like saying FREAKIN if ya know what I mean. Watch how many times guys going for the kill shot with the crown of their helmet (meaning their head is down with eyes off the ball carrier) whiff like Whitner per say. The small part of the Senior Bowl I watched, it seemed like TMAT was in on every tackle with him usually getting there first. Not as football sexy as he is reliable from the highlights I've observed and things I've read. Initiating contact with the shoulder pads can be the difference between a long NFL career and the one a former Wisconsin stand-out had to retire prematurely from SF just 2 years after he was drafted.
2) WR Leonte Carroo from Rutgers. He's a very strong and compact 217 lbs at 6' tall with 29 TDs in his last 3 seasons at Rutgers. Here's his ypc: 17.1 in 2013, 19.7 in 2014, 20.7 in 2015. His imperfection is supposed to be he doesn't have real long arms. On a WR Corps where 3 TD receptions in 2014 and 5 TD receptions led them in back to back years - I'd say we can use a guy that can score TDs.
3) DE Bronson Kaufusi from BYU. This 6'7" 281 lb DE has been described as a tenacious tackler with good form that also has a nose for the ball. And he takes smart angles? Sound like a guy that might be a good fit in our front 7 on a team bad at tackling? Had 19.5 tackles for losses in 2015 and 10.5 sacks. Was a power forward on the basketball team in 2012 and 2013. Horton and his tutor Dick LeBeau loves the 5 technique types and he definitely looks like he can bring the diesel of a Brett Keisel.
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I watched a lot of Temple and Rutgers football this year. A bunch of my family went to both schools. I really like Matakevich and Carroo.
You described Tyler's game well. He is in on every play and just cleans it up. Nothing highlight reel but a sound tackler.
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I watched a lot of Temple and Rutgers football this year. A bunch of my family went to both schools. I really like Matakevich and Carroo.
You described Tyler's game well. He is in on every play and just cleans it up. Nothing highlight reel but a sound tackler.
I watched a lot of Temple and Rutgers football this year. A bunch of my family went to both schools. I really like Matakevich and Carroo.
You described Tyler's game well. He is in on every play and just cleans it up. Nothing highlight reel but a sound tackler.
Thanks LFS! Now that Farmer's gone - we have a better chance the new FO will be identifying reliable tacklers on film.
Canton Mike informed me Carroo has a domestic violence incident or 2 which was a bad undersight on my part. My apology for the bad idea. That said, there's gotta be other WRs with equitable talent and skills we can snag as mid to late bargains though.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I. Avery Young (AUB) - 6'5 328 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=125946&draftyear=2016&genpos=OTSometimes the other guy might be the guy? May not exactly be the case here, but opposite his more publicized, LT counterpart (you have to look at Coleman tape to see Young), Avery looks pretty good.While I like Coleman better, taking Young at least one day later may be the better value. The experience of watching Young at RT opposite Coleman at LT was reminiscent of seeing Schwartz opposite Joe in that you know one is better, but the other is nearly as effective.Young showed a good chop in PassPro with generally good feet in all aspects of his game. He used his hands well in run blocking keeping them inside... not so much in PassPro. Bad habit of dipping his head at impact in either run or pass blocking which he pays for at times.Lined up opposite Nkemdiche in one short yardage situation and got stuffed...
I. Avery Young (AUB) - 6'5 328 http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=125946&draftyear=2016&genpos=OTSometimes the other guy might be the guy? May not exactly be the case here, but opposite his more publicized, LT counterpart (you have to look at Coleman tape to see Young), Avery looks pretty good.While I like Coleman better, taking Young at least one day later may be the better value. The experience of watching Young at RT opposite Coleman at LT was reminiscent of seeing Schwartz opposite Joe in that you know one is better, but the other is nearly as effective.Young showed a good chop in PassPro with generally good feet in all aspects of his game. He used his hands well in run blocking keeping them inside... not so much in PassPro. Bad habit of dipping his head at impact in either run or pass blocking which he pays for at times.Lined up opposite Nkemdiche in one short yardage situation and got stuffed...I took Avery in Round 7 for the Jags in our mock ....... he has upside
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I watched a lot of Temple and Rutgers football this year. A bunch of my family went to both schools. I really like Matakevich and Carroo.
You described Tyler's game well. He is in on every play and just cleans it up. Nothing highlight reel but a sound tackler.
Thanks LFS! Now that Farmer's gone - we have a better chance the new FO will be identifying reliable tacklers on film.
Canton Mike informed me Carroo has a domestic violence incident or 2 which was a bad undersight on my part. My apology for the bad idea. That said, there's gotta be other WRs with equitable talent and skills we can snag as mid to late bargains though.
Thanks LFS! Now that Farmer's gone - we have a better chance the new FO will be identifying reliable tacklers on film.
Canton Mike informed me Carroo has a domestic violence incident or 2 which was a bad undersight on my part. My apology for the bad idea. That said, there's gotta be other WRs with equitable talent and skills we can snag as mid to late bargains though.
Yeah didn't know about all that. No way they should take that guy. Already had enough drama.
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Except I think Young is going to be only an OG in the pros.
Probably a terrific OG. I don't see him staying at tackle.
But character, work ethic, and love for the game has to be there.
Sometimes the ultimate showstoppers with changing a tackle to a guard when enters the NFL is the ability/lackthereof to trap and pull. 2 examples that jump out at me are Gilkey and Lauvao. Both, were really drive blockers at the line of scrimmage in college. Trapping and pulling is an art that every big frame doesn't necessarily have. Eric Steinbach played Offensive Tackle at Iowa under Kirk Ferentz (who was our Oline Coach the last time we won a playoff game in the 90s) before he became a very efficient OG in the NFL. Robert Gallery, who also played for Ferentz, struggled as a Tackle but rallied his way into a comfortable niche at OG shortly thereafter. Steinbach was terrific at pulling and trapping as well as getting to the next tier of defense, something that would rub off on Alex Mack very early on in his career here.
As a former Guard way back in BC (Before Cellphones), our coach would always say you guys act bored with this stances and start stuff. Inevitably someone would ask how difficult is it to grasp this when we do it over and over and over? Then we would do Okie drills with David whipping Goliath's ass repeatedly without needing a sling shot. The we'd get treated to: "Too high out of stance? Welcome to the seat of your pants from the poet that wants you to know it!" Coach's favorite was busting our line for what's coming before we snapped the ball. He'd blow it dead during the QB cadence and say here comes a 48 quick pitch thanks to the dead give away from our OG's brand new stance with a lean this play. Or he'd say our Center wants his mother up in the top of the stands to know we're running to the right. Instinctive defensive players pick up on these pre-snap keys really easily. Relating this the Browns, every time Gilkey trapped or pulled - opponents had a defensive team meeting in our backfield. They picked it up on film and it turned out to be an easy pre-snap key. Another thing he was terrible at was his inability to stay tight to the line of scrimmage when he trapped. He bellied back and 1 time he clobbered our QB who was trying to sell a play action fake prior to handing off for the counter. Aside from bellying back, he had his head down. That doesn't happen in all cases; but it's the type of stuff you can get from inexperienced players on a position change that may not be best suited to play OG. Greco eventually became an efficient Guard here but that wasn't exactly immediate. Bitonio looks like he picked it up quicker than most so I feel like he's more of an exception to the rule at least in recent years here in Cleveland. 1 year later, we changed OCs and he struggled some albeit part of that was playing through/around injury. Love that kid! Moving forward, I would rather see us draft a true Guard mid-late that shows us on film he can trap and pull without tipping teams off. When you think about it, the run on guards usually starts much later than the run on tackles so this is a position you can steal later in the draft if you have a decent FO.
Sometimes the ultimate showstoppers with changing a tackle to a guard when enters the NFL is the ability/lackthereof to trap and pull. 2 examples that jump out at me are Gilkey and Lauvao. Both, were really drive blockers at the line of scrimmage in college. Trapping and pulling is an art that every big frame doesn't necessarily have. Eric Steinbach played Offensive Tackle at Iowa under Kirk Ferentz (who was our Oline Coach the last time we won a playoff game in the 90s) before he became a very efficient OG in the NFL. Robert Gallery, who also played for Ferentz, struggled as a Tackle but rallied his way into a comfortable niche at OG shortly thereafter. Steinbach was terrific at pulling and trapping as well as getting to the next tier of defense, something that would rub off on Alex Mack very early on in his career here.
As a former Guard way back in BC (Before Cellphones), our coach would always say you guys act bored with this stances and start stuff. Inevitably someone would ask how difficult is it to grasp this when we do it over and over and over? Then we would do Okie drills with David whipping Goliath's ass repeatedly without needing a sling shot. The we'd get treated to: "Too high out of stance? Welcome to the seat of your pants from the poet that wants you to know it!" Coach's favorite was busting our line for what's coming before we snapped the ball. He'd blow it dead during the QB cadence and say here comes a 48 quick pitch thanks to the dead give away from our OG's brand new stance with a lean this play. Or he'd say our Center wants his mother up in the top of the stands to know we're running to the right. Instinctive defensive players pick up on these pre-snap keys really easily. Relating this the Browns, every time Gilkey trapped or pulled - opponents had a defensive team meeting in our backfield.
I know I give you shit at times for your... ummmm... "verbiational" volume... but there are times when your recall astounds me... This was one of those times.
Were there at least walkie-talkies"in your time"?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Sometimes the ultimate showstoppers with changing a tackle to a guard when enters the NFL is the ability/lackthereof to trap and pull. 2 examples that jump out at me are Gilkey and Lauvao. Both, were really drive blockers at the line of scrimmage in college. Trapping and pulling is an art that every big frame doesn't necessarily have. Eric Steinbach played Offensive Tackle at Iowa under Kirk Ferentz (who was our Oline Coach the last time we won a playoff game in the 90s) before he became a very efficient OG in the NFL. Robert Gallery, who also played for Ferentz, struggled as a Tackle but rallied his way into a comfortable niche at OG shortly thereafter. Steinbach was terrific at pulling and trapping as well as getting to the next tier of defense, something that would rub off on Alex Mack very early on in his career here.
As a former Guard way back in BC (Before Cellphones), our coach would always say you guys act bored with this stances and start stuff. Inevitably someone would ask how difficult is it to grasp this when we do it over and over and over? Then we would do Okie drills with David whipping Goliath's ass repeatedly without needing a sling shot. The we'd get treated to: "Too high out of stance? Welcome to the seat of your pants from the poet that wants you to know it!" Coach's favorite was busting our line for what's coming before we snapped the ball. He'd blow it dead during the QB cadence and say here comes a 48 quick pitch thanks to the dead give away from our OG's brand new stance with a lean this play. Or he'd say our Center wants his mother up in the top of the stands to know we're running to the right. Instinctive defensive players pick up on these pre-snap keys really easily. Relating this the Browns, every time Gilkey trapped or pulled - opponents had a defensive team meeting in our backfield.
I know I give you shit at times for your... ummmm... "verbiational" volume... but there are times when your recall astounds me... This was one of those times.
Were there at least walkie-talkies"in your time"?
I know I give you shit at times for your... ummmm... "verbiational" volume... but there are times when your recall astounds me... This was one of those times.
Were there at least walkie-talkies"in your time"?
From the vaults of Flugs
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Sometimes the ultimate showstoppers with changing a tackle to a guard when enters the NFL is the ability/lackthereof to trap and pull. 2 examples that jump out at me are Gilkey and Lauvao. Both, were really drive blockers at the line of scrimmage in college. Trapping and pulling is an art that every big frame doesn't necessarily have. Eric Steinbach played Offensive Tackle at Iowa under Kirk Ferentz (who was our Oline Coach the last time we won a playoff game in the 90s) before he became a very efficient OG in the NFL. Robert Gallery, who also played for Ferentz, struggled as a Tackle but rallied his way into a comfortable niche at OG shortly thereafter. Steinbach was terrific at pulling and trapping as well as getting to the next tier of defense, something that would rub off on Alex Mack very early on in his career here.
As a former Guard way back in BC (Before Cellphones), our coach would always say you guys act bored with this stances and start stuff. Inevitably someone would ask how difficult is it to grasp this when we do it over and over and over? Then we would do Okie drills with David whipping Goliath's ass repeatedly without needing a sling shot. The we'd get treated to: "Too high out of stance? Welcome to the seat of your pants from the poet that wants you to know it!" Coach's favorite was busting our line for what's coming before we snapped the ball. He'd blow it dead during the QB cadence and say here comes a 48 quick pitch thanks to the dead give away from our OG's brand new stance with a lean this play. Or he'd say our Center wants his mother up in the top of the stands to know we're running to the right. Instinctive defensive players pick up on these pre-snap keys really easily. Relating this the Browns, every time Gilkey trapped or pulled - opponents had a defensive team meeting in our backfield.
I know I give you shit at times for your... ummmm... "verbiational" volume... but there are times when your recall astounds me... This was one of those times.
Were there at least walkie-talkies"in your time"?
I know I give you shit at times for your... ummmm... "verbiational" volume... but there are times when your recall astounds me... This was one of those times.
Were there at least walkie-talkies"in your time"?
LOL! Yeah there were walkie-talkies; but roosters were still competing with alarm clocks.
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