Camp Ragland
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Nor was Jack Lambert that highly regarded coming out so how much do we want to pedestal the cubed root of ignorance about him? It was really creepy how stupid many of the first 25 teams were in the 96 draft regarding Ray Lewis. I'm not buying the theory he just inexplicably woke up a great football player in 1996 all of a sudden. Part of that was the A+ he got on the eye ball test plus earning All American honors as early as his sophomore year continuing on through his junior year. He clearly needed a bigger challenge. The guy is a classic example of why you don't count a 40 time more than instincts and skills jumping out at you on film. Understanding that, this article appears to be a much better indicator of what kind of player he was than the type of criteria that gift wrapped him to our biggest enemy outside of Pittsburgh.
As a freshman, he was an immediate contributor and became a starter for the Hurricanes' final five games. He compiled 81 tackles, two sacks, two tackles for loss, and four pass deflections en route to being named to the freshman All-American team.
In his sophomore season, Lewis earned first-team All-American and All-Big East honors. Lewis led the Big East with 153 tackles and also contributed nine tackles for a loss, two sacks, and an interception for a Hurricanes team that had the nation's top-ranked defense and finished No. 6 in both the writers' and coaches' polls.[10]
Lewis's junior campaign was even more successful, as he was again named to the All-American[11] and All-Big East teams, and finished as runner-up for the Butkus Award, given to the top linebacker in college football.[12] Lewis finished his junior season with 160 tackles, the second highest in University of Miami team history after Ed Weisacosky's 164 in 1965. Lewis also totaled eight tackles for loss, two sacks, two interceptions, a forced fumble, four pass deflections and one touchdown. Against West Virginia University, Lewis contributed 15 tackles. Lewis led the Big East in tackles his last two seasons and accumulated the fifth most in Miami history despite playing only three seasons.
After the 1995 season, Lewis decided to forgo his final year of college eligibility and enter the NFL draft.
Ragland didn't even start as a freshman or soph so was he ready to come out after his junior year like Lewis? That would have meant his last game playing college football was watching Zeke Elliott look like he was running a 10k with the football all over his defense virtually unchallenged. One of the weaknesses listed for Ragland in 3 different draft sites/magazines is "needs to improve his instincts." That said, he is listed at 6'1" like Lewis was.
So, you are saying that Ragland does not have the same kinds of instincts to play MLB like a Lewis...or other great ones had?
OK, I get that (not that that is something that I could personally perceive).
Why then is he considered mid first round material? Was he propped up by the Alabama defensive quality that they have demonstrated over the years.....where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? "He was great in that particular system....but as an individual talent, he is not all that great? Is that what I am hearing?
So, you are saying that Ragland does not have the same kinds of instincts to play MLB like a Lewis... - Gipper
Yes. Ray Lewis is one of the best of all time so it's not necessarily the insult both you and Warograw think it is. BTW, at least 3 different draft guides/magazines list instincts as a weakness for Ragland especially against the pass. - Flugel
or other great ones had? - Gipper
You never said other great ones - you clarified Ray Lewis. Why don't you just admit you got a little ahead of yourself with the comparison? - Flugel
OK, I get that (not that that is something that I could personally perceive). - Gipper
There's more to it than an extract of Ragland's greatest moments on video. Nashville is only 60 miles north of the Alabama border and they're on television 3 times as much as Vandy because they dominate the SEC. His d-line was lights out against the run making the ergonomics of playing LBer a piece of cake. Bama has a couple good LBers in the NFL and there's no reason they can't add to that. - Flugel
Why then is he considered mid first round material? - Gipper
Don't really care because we have the 8th overall pick, not to be confused with mid first round.
That said, have you ever heard of Trent Richardson? He was projected to go top 5 overall and we traded up from #4 to #3 with all the analysts on the NFL Channel and ESPN praising us. Does that mean he should have been compared to Jim Brown or Walter Payton before his first mini camp? And what happened when he went from a National Champion to Cleveland? Can you say culture shock?
This fluff and stuff about where they're projected - okay, I'll play. Why is a much better RB from Bama (Henry) projected to go late first round/early second round when Richardson was top 5 gotta-have? Why did Antonio Brown get drafted in round 6? Why didn't Victor Cruz, Wayne Chrebet, and Wes Welker get drafted? Why does Brandon Weeden and Ryan Tannehill get drafted ahead of Russell Wilson? Make sense? It shouldn't. - Flugel
Was he propped up by the Alabama defensive quality that they have demonstrated over the years.....where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? "He was great in that particular system....but as an individual talent, he is not all that great? Is that what I am hearing? - Gipper
I've already said I think he's a good LBer; but I also think he had a utopian situation the way that d-line helped devour the run there. If we trade back to the second half of round 1, I wouldn't hate the pick. Part of the reason I don't think we need to knee-jerk for him at #8 is because there's guys with better instincts that will be available in the middle of the draft where we have a ratload of picks (ie; a very instinctive Tyler Matakevich).
One of my favorite first round picks ever was Clay Matthews (who was our second pick in the 1st round in 78). Former Pro Bowl Guard Joe Dellamaleure (sp?) came to a Rochester Browns Backers banquet and said of all the LBers he's ever gone against Clay Matthews was the toughest son of bitch he's ever faced. Joe D reminded the audience that Clay played every different LBer spot behind either front at a high level. Teammates and opponents knew Matthews was great he was way more than Sportswriters voting on who's in the HOF and who's not. He gave us excellent LBer play for a long time. If there's a LBer in this draft that can give us the same level of excellence for that length of time - I want him. - Flugel
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I'm not saying he is. Ray Lewis is in the Hall of Fame. I'm with TCPO on this. The attempts at comparing some of these draftees with generational players is ridiculous.
Sure....as a hindsight. But the comparison is made because Lewis wasn't Top 5, he was 26th.
I would rather have him compared to a generational good player (Lewis) than a generationally bad player (Junkin).
Certainly, we should probably not be comparing him to anyone. Ragland should just be evaluated for his own skills, not in comparison to others.
Let's see what happens when we do that:
PLAYER OVERVIEW A do-it-all linebacker for Nick Saban's defense, Ragland finished second on the team in tackles (95) and third in tackles for loss (10.5) in 2014, adding four passes defended and an interception.
He continued his ascent in 2015, being voted the SEC Defensive Player of the Year.
STRENGTHS WEAKNESSES
STRENGTHS: Demonstrates the blend of size, aggression, instincts ??? and reliable open-field tackling skills to project well inside to 4-3 and 3-4 principles, alike. Takes accurate first steps and shows excellent closing burst to arrive with pop at the point of attack.
Works off blocks well with balance and anticipation, looking through blockers to keep his eyes on the prize, doing a much better job downhill rather than in reverse. Physical striker with reliable breakdown skills in the open field, wrapping, driving and finishing. Dirtiest jersey on the field and plays each snap like it is his last.
WEAKNESSES: Overaggressive pursuit angles and needs to better throttle down in space to break down at the contact point. Hyper-focused run defender and will leave his eyes in the backfield too long at times, causing him to be late in coverage. Needs to widen his vision to protect from cut blocks, pick up crossers and better recognize routes. Out-matched trying to stick with slot receivers down the field in coverage. Violent play style leads to durability questions.
IN OUR VIEW: He isn't as talented as C.J. Mosley, but he's a better NFL prospect than Trey DePriest, falling somewhere in the middle of those two former Alabama players.
--Dane Brugler and Rob Rang (2/13/16)
Sure....as a hindsight. But the comparison is made because Lewis wasn't Top 5, he was 26th.
I would rather have him compared to a generational good player (Lewis) than a generationally bad player (Junkin).
Certainly, we should probably not be comparing him to anyone. Ragland should just be evaluated for his own skills, not in comparison to others.
Let's see what happens when we do that:
PLAYER OVERVIEW A do-it-all linebacker for Nick Saban's defense, Ragland finished second on the team in tackles (95) and third in tackles for loss (10.5) in 2014, adding four passes defended and an interception.
He continued his ascent in 2015, being voted the SEC Defensive Player of the Year.
STRENGTHS WEAKNESSES
STRENGTHS: Demonstrates the blend of size, aggression, instincts ??? and reliable open-field tackling skills to project well inside to 4-3 and 3-4 principles, alike. Takes accurate first steps and shows excellent closing burst to arrive with pop at the point of attack.
Works off blocks well with balance and anticipation, looking through blockers to keep his eyes on the prize, doing a much better job downhill rather than in reverse. Physical striker with reliable breakdown skills in the open field, wrapping, driving and finishing. Dirtiest jersey on the field and plays each snap like it is his last.
WEAKNESSES: Overaggressive pursuit angles and needs to better throttle down in space to break down at the contact point. Hyper-focused run defender and will leave his eyes in the backfield too long at times, causing him to be late in coverage. Needs to widen his vision to protect from cut blocks, pick up crossers and better recognize routes. Out-matched trying to stick with slot receivers down the field in coverage. Violent play style leads to durability questions.
IN OUR VIEW: He isn't as talented as C.J. Mosley, but he's a better NFL prospect than Trey DePriest, falling somewhere in the middle of those two former Alabama players.
--Dane Brugler and Rob Rang (2/13/16)
Lindy's Draft Guide:
Not fit for a scheme that demands regularly dropping into coverage. Gets out of position, ignoring his lane and pursuit angle. Must be better throttling down in space to make the tackle at first contact.
Athlon Sports - The NFL Daft Guide:
Not an elite athlete for a LBer and he could have more range in pursuit. Needs to improve instincts in zone coverage. Will play high at times. Too many flags for horse collar tackles and face masks. Suffered a significant tear in his meniscus during practice, forcing him to miss most of the 2015 season. It showed he only played 3 games in 2015 and we know he didn't start in 2012 and 2013 leaving the only full season as his junior year in 2014.
Harris Publications Pro Draft Guide 2016:
Lacks athleticism. Will struggle when asked to cover RBs and TEs. Excellent football IQ. Physical thumper and sure tackler.
The good news is he doesn't have a lot of mileage on him if we do trade back to later in round 1.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
He does lack some athleticism, though that seems common with some of the nastier MLBs out there. Vontaze isn't a great athlete either.
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Ragland is no more than his Tide teammate CJ Mosley at Baltimore. Than we scored 30 on them with Mc Cown. Far from Ray Lewis Days..
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends Team Brotherhood-"It's not about You,Me or I. It's about building We"..Hue Jackson -
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Geez.
CJ Mosley was a frickin Pro Bowler and AFCN ROY....
Somebody had to be & somebody had to go. Why is your only opinion on Buckner is "he sucks"? Why War Kiper?
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Ragland is no more than his Tide teammate CJ Mosley at Baltimore. Than we scored 30 on them with Mc Cown. Far from Ray Lewis Days..
Ragland is no more than his Tide teammate CJ Mosley at Baltimore. Than we scored 30 on them with Mc Cown. Far from Ray Lewis Days..
CJ exceeded my expectations, so clearly I'm no authority on BAMA ILBs transitioning to the Pros, but most of my Mosely misgivings were injury related.
I don't see Ragland being as good as a healthy CJ.
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"Violent play style leads to durability questions."
Love it
Not sure anyone personified that more than the Colts' Bob Sanders...
Maybe the Bolts/Pats Safety, Rodney Harrison, but not quite.
Not sure anyone personified that more than the Colts' Bob Sanders...
Maybe the Bolts/Pats Safety, Rodney Harrison, but not quite.
Maybe Dick Butkus, maybe Ray Nitscke, Jack Tatum, Ronnie Lott. Mike Singletary
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So, you are saying that Ragland does not have the same kinds of instincts to play MLB like a Lewis... - Gipper
Yes. Ray Lewis is one of the best of all time so it's not necessarily the insult both you and Warograw think it is. BTW, at least 3 different draft guides/magazines list instincts as a weakness for Ragland especially against the pass. - Flugel
or other great ones had? - Gipper
You never said other great ones - you clarified Ray Lewis. Why don't you just admit you got a little ahead of yourself with the comparison? - Flugel
OK, I get that (not that that is something that I could personally perceive). - Gipper
There's more to it than an extract of Ragland's greatest moments on video. Nashville is only 60 miles north of the Alabama border and they're on television 3 times as much as Vandy because they dominate the SEC. His d-line was lights out against the run making the ergonomics of playing LBer a piece of cake. Bama has a couple good LBers in the NFL and there's no reason they can't add to that. - Flugel
Why then is he considered mid first round material? - Gipper
Don't really care because we have the 8th overall pick, not to be confused with mid first round.
That said, have you ever heard of Trent Richardson? He was projected to go top 5 overall and we traded up from #4 to #3 with all the analysts on the NFL Channel and ESPN praising us. Does that mean he should have been compared to Jim Brown or Walter Payton before his first mini camp? And what happened when he went from a National Champion to Cleveland? Can you say culture shock?
This fluff and stuff about where they're projected - okay, I'll play. Why is a much better RB from Bama (Henry) projected to go late first round/early second round when Richardson was top 5 gotta-have? Why did Antonio Brown get drafted in round 6? Why didn't Victor Cruz, Wayne Chrebet, and Wes Welker get drafted? Why does Brandon Weeden and Ryan Tannehill get drafted ahead of Russell Wilson? Make sense? It shouldn't. - Flugel
Was he propped up by the Alabama defensive quality that they have demonstrated over the years.....where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? "He was great in that particular system....but as an individual talent, he is not all that great? Is that what I am hearing? - Gipper
I've already said I think he's a good LBer; but I also think he had a utopian situation the way that d-line helped devour the run there. If we trade back to the second half of round 1, I wouldn't hate the pick. Part of the reason I don't think we need to knee-jerk for him at #8 is because there's guys with better instincts that will be available in the middle of the draft where we have a ratload of picks (ie; a very instinctive Tyler Matakevich).
One of my favorite first round picks ever was Clay Matthews (who was our second pick in the 1st round in 78). Former Pro Bowl Guard Joe Dellamaleure (sp?) came to a Rochester Browns Backers banquet and said of all the LBers he's ever gone against Clay Matthews was the toughest son of bitch he's ever faced. Joe D reminded the audience that Clay played every different LBer spot behind either front at a high level. Teammates and opponents knew Matthews was great he was way more than Sportswriters voting on who's in the HOF and who's not. He gave us excellent LBer play for a long time. If there's a LBer in this draft that can give us the same level of excellence for that length of time - I want him. - Flugel
So, you are saying that Ragland does not have the same kinds of instincts to play MLB like a Lewis... - Gipper
Yes. Ray Lewis is one of the best of all time so it's not necessarily the insult both you and Warograw think it is. BTW, at least 3 different draft guides/magazines list instincts as a weakness for Ragland especially against the pass. - Flugel
But, the one I quoted said his instincts were one of his strengths!!
or other great ones had? - Gipper
You never said other great ones - you clarified Ray Lewis. Why don't you just admit you got a little ahead of yourself with the comparison? - Flugel
Well, if I was going to compare him I wanted to compare him to the best of recent vintage....not going back to Butkus/Lambert/Nitschke etc.
If he becomes a Brown.....then I want him to compare to all those guys. Optimism....so sue me!
OK, I get that (not that that is something that I could personally perceive). - Gipper
There's more to it than an extract of Ragland's greatest moments on video. Nashville is only 60 miles north of the Alabama border and they're on television 3 times as much as Vandy because they dominate the SEC. His d-line was lights out against the run making the ergonomics of playing LBer a piece of cake. Bama has a couple good LBers in the NFL and there's no reason they can't add to that. - Flugel
So, when I said that he was helped by the Alabama defensive system, you are saying I am right?
On the other hand, many great MLBs of the past also had great DLs in front of them. Certainly Lambert did....Singletary, etc.
Just because the guys in front of him were good does not mean that he also would not be good.
Why then is he considered mid first round material? - Gipper
Don't really care because we have the 8th overall pick, not to be confused with mid first round.
That said, have you ever heard of Trent Richardson? He was projected to go top 5 overall and we traded up from #4 to #3 with all the analysts on the NFL Channel and ESPN praising us. Does that mean he should have been compared to Jim Brown or Walter Payton before his first mini camp? And what happened when he went from a National Champion to Cleveland? Can you say culture shock?
No one has documented draft busts on here more than I. Yea, I know them all.
This fluff and stuff about where they're projected - okay, I'll play. Why is a much better RB from Bama (Henry) projected to go late first round/early second round when Richardson was top 5 gotta-have? Why did Antonio Brown get drafted in round 6? Why didn't Victor Cruz, Wayne Chrebet, and Wes Welker get drafted? Why does Brandon Weeden and Ryan Tannehill get drafted ahead of Russell Wilson?
In the latter case: purely height.
Make sense? It shouldn't. - Flugel
Was he propped up by the Alabama defensive quality that they have demonstrated over the years.....where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? "He was great in that particular system....but as an individual talent, he is not all that great? Is that what I am hearing? - Gipper
I've already said I think he's a good LBer; but I also think he had a utopian situation the way that d-line helped devour the run there. If we trade back to the second half of round 1, I wouldn't hate the pick. Part of the reason I don't think we need to knee-jerk for him at #8 is because there's guys with better instincts that will be available in the middle of the draft where we have a ratload of picks (ie; a very instinctive Tyler Matakevich).
One of my favorite first round picks ever was Clay Matthews (who was our second pick in the 1st round in 78). Former Pro Bowl Guard Joe Dellamaleure (sp?) came to a Rochester Browns Backers banquet and said of all the LBers he's ever gone against Clay Matthews was the toughest son of bitch he's ever faced. Joe D reminded the audience that Clay played every different LBer spot behind either front at a high level. Teammates and opponents knew Matthews was great he was way more than Sportswriters voting on who's in the HOF and who's not. He gave us excellent LBer play for a long time. If there's a LBer in this draft that can give us the same level of excellence for that length of time - I want him. - Flugel
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Sure....as a hindsight. But the comparison is made because Lewis wasn't Top 5, he was 26th.
I would rather have him compared to a generational good player (Lewis) than a generationally bad player (Junkin).
Certainly, we should probably not be comparing him to anyone. Ragland should just be evaluated for his own skills, not in comparison to others.
Let's see what happens when we do that:
PLAYER OVERVIEW A do-it-all linebacker for Nick Saban's defense, Ragland finished second on the team in tackles (95) and third in tackles for loss (10.5) in 2014, adding four passes defended and an interception.
He continued his ascent in 2015, being voted the SEC Defensive Player of the Year.
STRENGTHS WEAKNESSES
STRENGTHS: Demonstrates the blend of size, aggression, instincts ??? and reliable open-field tackling skills to project well inside to 4-3 and 3-4 principles, alike. Takes accurate first steps and shows excellent closing burst to arrive with pop at the point of attack.
Works off blocks well with balance and anticipation, looking through blockers to keep his eyes on the prize, doing a much better job downhill rather than in reverse. Physical striker with reliable breakdown skills in the open field, wrapping, driving and finishing. Dirtiest jersey on the field and plays each snap like it is his last.
WEAKNESSES: Overaggressive pursuit angles and needs to better throttle down in space to break down at the contact point. Hyper-focused run defender and will leave his eyes in the backfield too long at times, causing him to be late in coverage. Needs to widen his vision to protect from cut blocks, pick up crossers and better recognize routes. Out-matched trying to stick with slot receivers down the field in coverage. Violent play style leads to durability questions.
IN OUR VIEW: He isn't as talented as C.J. Mosley, but he's a better NFL prospect than Trey DePriest, falling somewhere in the middle of those two former Alabama players.
--Dane Brugler and Rob Rang (2/13/16)
Lindy's Draft Guide:
Not fit for a scheme that demands regularly dropping into coverage. Gets out of position, ignoring his lane and pursuit angle. Must be better throttling down in space to make the tackle at first contact.
Athlon Sports - The NFL Daft Guide:
Not an elite athlete for a LBer and he could have more range in pursuit. Needs to improve instincts in zone coverage. Will play high at times. Too many flags for horse collar tackles and face masks. Suffered a significant tear in his meniscus during practice, forcing him to miss most of the 2015 season. It showed he only played 3 games in 2015 and we know he didn't start in 2012 and 2013 leaving the only full season as his junior year in 2014.
Harris Publications Pro Draft Guide 2016:
Lacks athleticism. Will struggle when asked to cover RBs and TEs. Excellent football IQ. Physical thumper and sure tackler.
The good news is he doesn't have a lot of mileage on him if we do trade back to later in round 1.
Lindy's Draft Guide:
Not fit for a scheme that demands regularly dropping into coverage. Gets out of position, ignoring his lane and pursuit angle. Must be better throttling down in space to make the tackle at first contact.
Athlon Sports - The NFL Daft Guide:
Not an elite athlete for a LBer and he could have more range in pursuit. Needs to improve instincts in zone coverage. Will play high at times. Too many flags for horse collar tackles and face masks. Suffered a significant tear in his meniscus during practice, forcing him to miss most of the 2015 season. It showed he only played 3 games in 2015 and we know he didn't start in 2012 and 2013 leaving the only full season as his junior year in 2014.
Harris Publications Pro Draft Guide 2016:
Lacks athleticism. Will struggle when asked to cover RBs and TEs. Excellent football IQ. Physical thumper and sure tackler.
The good news is he doesn't have a lot of mileage on him if we do trade back to later in round 1.
So, what you are saying is that two different scouts can look at the same guy and have totally opposite opinions? That is why 50% of all first rounders bust.
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Maybe Dick Butkus, maybe Ray Nitscke, Jack Tatum, Ronnie Lott. Mike Singletary
Hard hitters for sure, but ones that did not knock themselves out of games with the frequency of Sanders or Harrison.
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Medical check came back that Ragland has an enlarged aorta.
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Medical check came back that Ragland has an enlarged aorta.
Medical check came back that Ragland has an enlarged aorta.
Ooh.....and I was thinking maybe he was a guy the Browns could not take at #32. Maybe not.
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