How did Savage leave Browns heading into draft?
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I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick. That's why GB is so upset that they drafted Rodgers, why Tony Romo is a bust, why the Giants gave up on Eli after a few mediocre seasons, why James Harrison never made it off the Steeler's practice squad, why Michael Turner is a career backup, why the Falcons regret drafting Roddy White (his first season was weak), Leonard Davis is a bust, Thomas Jones will never rush for 1000, etc.
Oh, wait. None of that is true. In fact, it seems like it's perfectly normal for players to take a few years to prove their value. Yes, there are exceptions (the Dolphins aren't one. their QB and best defensive player came in through FA), but that doesnt disprove the rule. The argument has become whether or not we should wait a few years to make strong statements about the quality of a draft class. You don't think we should. I'm going to stand over here with 99% of football fans, commentators, GMs, coaches, etc and say you're wrong. And I'll save you some time by letting you know now that another 500 words isn't going to change my mind.
I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick. That's why GB is so upset that they drafted Rodgers, why Tony Romo is a bust, why the Giants gave up on Eli after a few mediocre seasons, why James Harrison never made it off the Steeler's practice squad, why Michael Turner is a career backup, why the Falcons regret drafting Roddy White (his first season was weak), Leonard Davis is a bust, Thomas Jones will never rush for 1000, etc.
Oh, wait. None of that is true. In fact, it seems like it's perfectly normal for players to take a few years to prove their value. Yes, there are exceptions (the Dolphins aren't one. their QB and best defensive player came in through FA), but that doesnt disprove the rule. The argument has become whether or not we should wait a few years to make strong statements about the quality of a draft class. You don't think we should. I'm going to stand over here with 99% of football fans, commentators, GMs, coaches, etc and say you're wrong. And I'll save you some time by letting you know now that another 500 words isn't going to change my mind.
Tom Tupa,the truth of the matter is,most of the players the Browns have drafted over the years never develop into difference makers or game changers. And those 2 reasons can stem from a number of things....character, poor position coaches, or for the fact they aren't as good as advertised.
Those players you brought up are poor examples to prove your point.
The Browns very rarely had established vets to mentor young players in order for them to ascend to the next level.
James Harrison benefits from playing under one of the best defensives minds in our era,Dick LeBeau. Plus I believe he was able to play behind Joey Porter. Harrison also is a student of the game.
Kamerion Wimbley is going to play for his 3 DC in 4 years.
Wimbley came in drafted in the 1st RD.....he was guarenteed to start right away. Wimbley hasn't progressed. He's regressed......For a guy drafted to bring heat from the edge,he's invisable.
A guy like Wimbley is projected to give results right away,not 4 years down the road.
Wimbley has no upper body strength and his legs are pixel sticks.
A 1,000 yards is no longer a benchmark.....any RB that averages 66 yards a game,gets a 1,000 yards.
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I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick. That's why GB is so upset that they drafted Rodgers, why Tony Romo is a bust, why the Giants gave up on Eli after a few mediocre seasons, why James Harrison never made it off the Steeler's practice squad, why Michael Turner is a career backup, why the Falcons regret drafting Roddy White (his first season was weak), Leonard Davis is a bust, Thomas Jones will never rush for 1000, etc.
Oh, wait. None of that is true. In fact, it seems like it's perfectly normal for players to take a few years to prove their value. Yes, there are exceptions (the Dolphins aren't one. their QB and best defensive player came in through FA), but that doesnt disprove the rule. The argument has become whether or not we should wait a few years to make strong statements about the quality of a draft class. You don't think we should. I'm going to stand over here with 99% of football fans, commentators, GMs, coaches, etc and say you're wrong. And I'll save you some time by letting you know now that another 500 words isn't going to change my mind.
I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick.
You're not even close to getting it. You got your nipples twisted because I sorted through a couple hundred "ifs" and corrected your insinuations that Opey was acing his GM gig here in Cleveland. Then I backed it up with examples you refused to find convenient causing you to get silly. In the process you're confusing Charlie Frye with Tony Romo - good luck with that.
You said you need at least 3 years to define the quality of work of the GM at a draft. Here's the sum of 05 draftees I gave you that started in 08:
Braylon Edwards, WR = 1 for offense + Brodney Pool, Safety = 1 for defense
None of the other draft picks remain with this team from that class and our record 4 years later is 4-12. None of them resurfaced on any of the 31 other rosters either. I didn't see the same bunch of James Harrisons you saw. I was moved by your imagination and creativity though.
Opey's 2008 Draft = 0 day 1 picks & sum of 5 draftees. Compare that to other 08 draft volumes in the AFC North: Balt 10 draftees, Cincy 10 draftees, Pittsburgh 7 draftees. For 2009 = Phil set us up w/ 4 draft picks before Winslow got traded (1 was dded since). This means Phil set us up with a total of 9 picks for 08 & 09. He had you at "hello" Tupa.
I want a GM that understands the following:
1) WHAT division he's in; 2) WHAT defensive alignment he's selecting for; 3) WHAT types of linemen on both sides of the ball are WORTH drafting AFTER rd 1; 4) NFL WEAR & TEAR on FA signees before they hold us hostage; and 5) Saying you build through the draft means you build through the draft instead of continuance to throw 100% of your marbles into the same free agency that has bitten this franchise in the fanny.
- Tom F. (Thomas Dimitroff and Bill Parcells showed that you can go from chaos to playoffs in 1 intelligent offseason while you were too happy to remind us noone better than Phil was available for upgrade. Thatta boy!)
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We got Shaun Rogers for one of those draft picks. Do you like that move? Y or N? If yes, then stop complaining that we didnt have a draft pick last year. If no, I'd love an explanation.
We used last year's #1 to move up to get Quinn. The move was widely lauded at the time and we currently have no idea how it will play out. So your criticism that we didn't have a #1 last year is hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.
We used some of this year's draft picks to move up last year. You have no idea if Bell, Hubbard and Rucker were good picks. So your criticism of how many picks we had this year is completely hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.
We used last year's #2 on Corey Williams. I can understand if people don't like that trade. Personally, I think he played fairly well considering the fact that he was in a new system and injured, but I won't begrudge you some crankiness on this one.
We used last year's 6th round pick on Hank Fraley. I doubt anyone thinks this was a bad use of a 6th round pick.
We traded last year's 7th round pick for a backup CB who ended up starting a game because we were hit so hard by injuries. I'm okay with that, are you?
There you have our lack of draft picks. I see MAYBE 2 picks that you can be upset about right now (one of them involves a 7th rounder), and I think it makes sense to give Williams another year before you flip out over that pick. Again, your complaints about our lack of draft picks are hollow right now. Come back in a year or two.
Your criticism of Edwards is a great example of why it is stupid to try to judge Phil's work right now. If we had done this last year, we would have been talking about a Pro Bowl WR and a QB that we picked off Balt's practice sqaud that they now wanted to trade a 1st round pick for. Doesnt this conversation make a lot more sense now that we have a better idea of how Edwards and Anderson play?
Phil's 2005 draft was weak. We've discussed that endlessly here as well. I don't give him a pass for it. He had a bad year. Boo on him. But that doesnt tell the whole story. In fact, Phil's 2005 draft looks AMAZING next to the Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski. Bad years happen. We'll have a good picture of how good his body of work was in a couple of years. I'm sorry, but it's true.
I have to admit that I get a kick out of your consistent complaints that we don't build through the draft and then your references to Bill Parcells and Miami. They drafted jake long first overall last year. So they get as much credit as Phil does for Joe Thomas. After that, they drafted DEs that combined for about 50 tackles. So how did their roster really improve last year? FAs named Chad Pennington and Joey Porter come to mind. Of course, I should also admit that I dont see Miami being a perennial winner. Their season last year looks alot more like our 2007 than the beginning of a Patriot-esque decade. But you love those snap one-year judgments, dont you?
you were too happy to remind us noone better than Phil was available for upgrade. Thatta boy!)
I'm sorry, but when I posted stat after stat about Phil being as good as other GMs in the league, did you really expect me to be persuaded by your argument that there must be some guy out there that we havent heard of who is better?
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We got Shaun Rogers for one of those draft picks. Do you like that move? Y or N? If yes, then stop complaining that we didnt have a draft pick last year. If no, I'd love an explanation.
We used last year's #1 to move up to get Quinn. The move was widely lauded at the time and we currently have no idea how it will play out. So your criticism that we didn't have a #1 last year is hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.
We used some of this year's draft picks to move up last year. You have no idea if Bell, Hubbard and Rucker were good picks. So your criticism of how many picks we had this year is completely hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.
We used last year's #2 on Corey Williams. I can understand if people don't like that trade. Personally, I think he played fairly well considering the fact that he was in a new system and injured, but I won't begrudge you some crankiness on this one.
We used last year's 6th round pick on Hank Fraley. I doubt anyone thinks this was a bad use of a 6th round pick.
We traded last year's 7th round pick for a backup CB who ended up starting a game because we were hit so hard by injuries. I'm okay with that, are you?
There you have our lack of draft picks. I see MAYBE 2 picks that you can be upset about right now (one of them involves a 7th rounder), and I think it makes sense to give Williams another year before you flip out over that pick. Again, your complaints about our lack of draft picks are hollow right now. Come back in a year or two.
Your criticism of Edwards is a great example of why it is stupid to try to judge Phil's work right now. If we had done this last year, we would have been talking about a Pro Bowl WR and a QB that we picked off Balt's practice sqaud that they now wanted to trade a 1st round pick for. Doesnt this conversation make a lot more sense now that we have a better idea of how Edwards and Anderson play?
Phil's 2005 draft was weak. We've discussed that endlessly here as well. I don't give him a pass for it. He had a bad year. Boo on him. But that doesnt tell the whole story. In fact, Phil's 2005 draft looks AMAZING next to the Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski. Bad years happen. We'll have a good picture of how good his body of work was in a couple of years. I'm sorry, but it's true.
I have to admit that I get a kick out of your consistent complaints that we don't build through the draft and then your references to Bill Parcells and Miami. They drafted jake long first overall last year. So they get as much credit as Phil does for Joe Thomas. After that, they drafted DEs that combined for about 50 tackles. So how did their roster really improve last year? FAs named Chad Pennington and Joey Porter come to mind. Of course, I should also admit that I dont see Miami being a perennial winner. Their season last year looks alot more like our 2007 than the beginning of a Patriot-esque decade. But you love those snap one-year judgments, dont you?
you were too happy to remind us noone better than Phil was available for upgrade. Thatta boy!)
I'm sorry, but when I posted stat after stat about Phil being as good as other GMs in the league, did you really expect me to be persuaded by your argument that there must be some guy out there that we havent heard of who is better?
Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski.
I assume you mean 2006 -- that is the year Stephen Gostkowski was drafted. Uhmm, so you would rate Laurence Maroney a draft bust?? Tell you what: I'll trade him for Wimbley right now -- forget that Wimbley was taken 8 slots higher. Come back to me at the end of this season and we'll discuss it. Didn't we trade down with Baltimore out of the slot to pick Ngata for the one-move wonder?? Yeah, Savage was the brains behind the draft in Baltimore.
You can't really look at the Patriots drafts and compare them to the Browns. Half the guys on our squad that stick on the roster -- junk like Leon Williams or Iasac Sowells, for instance -- wouldn't make it out of their rookie training camp with the Patriots.
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@jadbf said:
I'll jump in here with Tom a bit to say this.once again. How many of these guys that Savage drafted haven't improved because of the EXTREME LACK OF COACHING we had here the whole time Savage was here?
Again, use the Harrison example from Pittsburg. here's a guy who got cut from practice squads of TWO TEAMS only to eventually become the force he is. And why is he the force that he is? because he plays under a D coordinator who gets the best out of every player on his squad and designs his scheme around their strengths. I believe Wimbley's lack of progress goes straight to what type of coach he played under (and worry this coaching group won't be much better). RAC's defense was a "read and react, keep the ball in front of you" type defense, and from what I see, that's not Wimbley's strength.
and I am not saying Savage has not made bad picks and is not to blame. I'm say the combination of factors that a) you had a coach and GM who really weren't communicating as much as they claimed, and the GM was drafting players the coach didn't want and the coach then didn't want to play them. and b ) the coach has in my opinion a clear history of not giving these rookies a chance. To me, that makes me agree with Tom that evaluating any of the players that were drafted under the previaous regime a crap shoot at best.
Coaching was definitely 50% of the nightmare JADBF but that doesn't excuse the GM here and I'll explain why.
Keep in mind, there's 31 other teams for a Nick Speegle, Travis Hill, David McMillan, Chase Pittman, Jon Dunn, Andrew Hoffman, Antonio Perkins, Justone Hamilton, Babe Oshinowo and NONE of them got snapped up elsewhere. That's says not JUST the coach or they'd all be out there on other teams proving it was just the coach.
Meanwhile, Harrison was on a talent rich team waiting for an opportunity behind a Pro Bowl starter named Joey Porter. There's a BIG difference between going to Cleveland's 31st rated D for an opportunity and going to a talent stocked team frequenting the playoffs. SURE coaching is a BIG part of that so WHY did Phil give RAC a raise if it was such a problem? That's another example of that communication gap between the Head Coach and GM you were referring to JADBF.
I think Phil starting us off with Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye on deck at QB was brutal and I had all kinds of homer hope for Charlie. TRUST ME. I didn't escape the stages of denial. I also look at how many free agents he signed that were past their expiration dates of decent football like Joe Andruzzi, Jason Fisk and Ted Washington. Then there's the BAD choices like Kevin Shaffer, Donte Stallworth, Kenny Wright-weed and Shaun Smith. Now there's the agiing guys running into the nagging injury frequencies from previous wear and tear like Joe J, Robaire Smith, Willie McGinest. Then there's the BAD LUCK signees like Baxter, Bentley, Peek and Stewart. Add it all up and YES Steinbach and Rogers were wonderful but look how many overcommitments we made at the expense of draft picks and building our future.
If you're 4-12 in your 4th year and you only combine 9 picks for the 08 & 09 drafts with the volume of holes in our starting lineup and depth - you weren't acing the GM gig IMO. Knowing our history of injuries I'm not just talking about the 22 starters we haven't completed. I'm talking about depth for the unplanned injuries ahead. They happen every year. We've seen us competing in 3 AFC Championships so we know what GOOD management looks like. Conversely, we've also seen us without a single playoff win since 1993 and I dare say it's 2009 right now.
Let me just ask this question: If Kokinos & Mangini stood before us and said we're going to be 4-12 in the 4th year of our gig without 1 single playoff appearance - are they the right leadership for the Cleveland Browns? If Mangini isn't capable of making his players better - would you want to see him getting a big raise from the GM? That would be a communication problem
- Tom F.
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Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski.
I assume you mean 2006 -- that is the year Stephen Gostkowski was drafted. Uhmm, so you would rate Laurence Maroney a draft bust?? Tell you what: I'll trade him for Wimbley right now -- forget that Wimbley was taken 8 slots higher. Come back to me at the end of this season and we'll discuss it. Didn't we trade down with Baltimore out of the slot to pick Ngata for the one-move wonder?? Yeah, Savage was the brains behind the draft in Baltimore.
You can't really look at the Patriots drafts and compare them to the Browns. Half the guys on our squad that stick on the roster -- junk like Leon Williams or Iasac Sowells, for instance -- wouldn't make it out of their rookie training camp with the Patriots.
I assume you mean 2006 -- that is the year Stephen Gostkowski was drafted. Uhmm, so you would rate Laurence Maroney a draft bust?? Tell you what: I'll trade him for Wimbley right now -- forget that Wimbley was taken 8 slots higher. Come back to me at the end of this season and we'll discuss it. Didn't we trade down with Baltimore out of the slot to pick Ngata for the one-move wonder?? Yeah, Savage was the brains behind the draft in Baltimore.
You can't really look at the Patriots drafts and compare them to the Browns. Half the guys on our squad that stick on the roster -- junk like Leon Williams or Iasac Sowells, for instance -- wouldn't make it out of their rookie training camp with the Patriots.
Yeah, I did mean 2006, thanks. And yes, I would keep Wimbley over Maroney. But let's go to 2007 anyway. Anybody jealous of this draft?
1 (24) Brandon Meriweather, S
4 (127) Kareem Brown, DT
5 (171) Clint Oldenburg, OL
6 (180) Justin Rogers, DE
6 (202) Mike Richardson, CB
6 (208) Justise Hairston, RB
6 (209) Corey Hilliard, T
7 (211) Oscar Lua, LB
7 (247) Mike Elgin, OL
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We got Shaun Rogers for one of those draft picks. Do you like that move? Y or N? If yes, then stop complaining that we didnt have a draft pick last year. If no, I'd love an explanation.
We used last year's #1 to move up to get Quinn. The move was widely lauded at the time and we currently have no idea how it will play out. So your criticism that we didn't have a #1 last year is hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.
We used some of this year's draft picks to move up last year. You have no idea if Bell, Hubbard and Rucker were good picks. So your criticism of how many picks we had this year is completely hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.
We used last year's #2 on Corey Williams. I can understand if people don't like that trade. Personally, I think he played fairly well considering the fact that he was in a new system and injured, but I won't begrudge you some crankiness on this one.
We used last year's 6th round pick on Hank Fraley. I doubt anyone thinks this was a bad use of a 6th round pick.
We traded last year's 7th round pick for a backup CB who ended up starting a game because we were hit so hard by injuries. I'm okay with that, are you?
There you have our lack of draft picks. I see MAYBE 2 picks that you can be upset about right now (one of them involves a 7th rounder), and I think it makes sense to give Williams another year before you flip out over that pick. Again, your complaints about our lack of draft picks are hollow right now. Come back in a year or two.
Your criticism of Edwards is a great example of why it is stupid to try to judge Phil's work right now. If we had done this last year, we would have been talking about a Pro Bowl WR and a QB that we picked off Balt's practice sqaud that they now wanted to trade a 1st round pick for. Doesnt this conversation make a lot more sense now that we have a better idea of how Edwards and Anderson play?
Phil's 2005 draft was weak. We've discussed that endlessly here as well. I don't give him a pass for it. He had a bad year. Boo on him. But that doesnt tell the whole story. In fact, Phil's 2005 draft looks AMAZING next to the Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski. Bad years happen. We'll have a good picture of how good his body of work was in a couple of years. I'm sorry, but it's true.
I have to admit that I get a kick out of your consistent complaints that we don't build through the draft and then your references to Bill Parcells and Miami. They drafted jake long first overall last year. So they get as much credit as Phil does for Joe Thomas. After that, they drafted DEs that combined for about 50 tackles. So how did their roster really improve last year? FAs named Chad Pennington and Joey Porter come to mind. Of course, I should also admit that I dont see Miami being a perennial winner. Their season last year looks alot more like our 2007 than the beginning of a Patriot-esque decade. But you love those snap one-year judgments, dont you?
you were too happy to remind us noone better than Phil was available for upgrade. Thatta boy!)
I'm sorry, but when I posted stat after stat about Phil being as good as other GMs in the league, did you really expect me to be persuaded by your argument that there must be some guy out there that we havent heard of who is better?
I have to admit that I get a kick out of your consistent complaints that we don't build through the draft and then your references to Bill Parcells and Miami. They drafted jake long first overall last year. So they get as much credit as Phil does for Joe Thomas. After that, they drafted DEs that combined for about 50 tackles. So how did their roster really improve last year?
That's good because you were getting really angry over a sports discussion. Glad to hear it.
Anyway, Miami was 1-15 the year before Parcells and playoff bound WITH him. I appreciate the creativity though.
Meanwhile we were 4-12 in the 4th year of the Savage plan. Savage found a FEW good men in his 4 years BUT our divisional opponents are consistently finding MORE good players. Therefore, when I say I'm concerned he only left us with 5 picks in 08 and only 4 picks in 09 (until Winslow's trade added 1 more) - that perpetuates the problem of us overcommiting to too many FAs past their primes on our roster.
- Tom F.
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I have to admit that I get a kick out of your consistent complaints that we don't build through the draft and then your references to Bill Parcells and Miami. They drafted jake long first overall last year. So they get as much credit as Phil does for Joe Thomas. After that, they drafted DEs that combined for about 50 tackles. So how did their roster really improve last year?
That's good because you were getting really angry over a sports discussion. Glad to hear it.
Anyway, Miami was 1-15 the year before Parcells and playoff bound WITH him. I appreciate the creativity though.
Meanwhile we were 4-12 in the 4th year of the Savage plan. Savage found a FEW good men in his 4 years BUT our divisional opponents are consistently finding MORE good players. Therefore, when I say I'm concerned he only left us with 5 picks in 08 and only 4 picks in 09 (until Winslow's trade added 1 more) - that perpetuates the problem of us overcommiting to too many FAs past their primes on our roster.
- Tom F.
That's good because you were getting really angry over a sports discussion. Glad to hear it.
Anyway, Miami was 1-15 the year before Parcells and playoff bound WITH him. I appreciate the creativity though.
Angry? Have I been gone so long that you misinterpret my posts that poorly? I'll use more smiley faces in the future.
Creative c&p on my Parcells comment. Clearly they got better. My point was twofold:
1) their biggest improvements came through free agency (although getting their RBs back from injury and suspension didn't hurt) They didn't make big changes through the draft. and
2) they aren't as good as their record. One year doesnt prove much. Phil was 10-6 a year ago, wasn't he?
I'd also add that they made a huge change in coaching. The WildDawg certainly deserves more of the credit than their draft class. It reflects well on Parcells, but doesnt fit your "build through the draft" plan very well.
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@jadbf said:
I'll jump in here with Tom a bit to say this.once again. How many of these guys that Savage drafted haven't improved because of the EXTREME LACK OF COACHING we had here the whole time Savage was here?
Again, use the Harrison example from Pittsburg. here's a guy who got cut from practice squads of TWO TEAMS only to eventually become the force he is. And why is he the force that he is? because he plays under a D coordinator who gets the best out of every player on his squad and designs his scheme around their strengths. I believe Wimbley's lack of progress goes straight to what type of coach he played under (and worry this coaching group won't be much better). RAC's defense was a "read and react, keep the ball in front of you" type defense, and from what I see, that's not Wimbley's strength.
and I am not saying Savage has not made bad picks and is not to blame. I'm say the combination of factors that a) you had a coach and GM who really weren't communicating as much as they claimed, and the GM was drafting players the coach didn't want and the coach then didn't want to play them. and b ) the coach has in my opinion a clear history of not giving these rookies a chance. To me, that makes me agree with Tom that evaluating any of the players that were drafted under the previaous regime a crap shoot at best.
Coaching was definitely 50% of the nightmare JADBF but that doesn't excuse the GM here and I'll explain why.
Keep in mind, there's 31 other teams for a Nick Speegle, Travis Hill, David McMillan, Chase Pittman, Jon Dunn, Andrew Hoffman, Antonio Perkins, Justone Hamilton, Babe Oshinowo and NONE of them got snapped up elsewhere. That's says not JUST the coach or they'd all be out there on other teams proving it was just the coach.
Meanwhile, Harrison was on a talent rich team waiting for an opportunity behind a Pro Bowl starter named Joey Porter. There's a BIG difference between going to Cleveland's 31st rated D for an opportunity and going to a talent stocked team frequenting the playoffs. SURE coaching is a BIG part of that so WHY did Phil give RAC a raise if it was such a problem? That's another example of that communication gap between the Head Coach and GM you were referring to JADBF.
I think Phil starting us off with Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye on deck at QB was brutal and I had all kinds of homer hope for Charlie. TRUST ME. I didn't escape the stages of denial. I also look at how many free agents he signed that were past their expiration dates of decent football like Joe Andruzzi, Jason Fisk and Ted Washington. Then there's the BAD choices like Kevin Shaffer, Donte Stallworth, Kenny Wright-weed and Shaun Smith. Now there's the agiing guys running into the nagging injury frequencies from previous wear and tear like Joe J, Robaire Smith, Willie McGinest. Then there's the BAD LUCK signees like Baxter, Bentley, Peek and Stewart. Add it all up and YES Steinbach and Rogers were wonderful but look how many overcommitments we made at the expense of draft picks and building our future.
If you're 4-12 in your 4th year and you only combine 9 picks for the 08 & 09 drafts with the volume of holes in our starting lineup and depth - you weren't acing the GM gig IMO. Knowing our history of injuries I'm not just talking about the 22 starters we haven't completed. I'm talking about depth for the unplanned injuries ahead. They happen every year. We've seen us competing in 3 AFC Championships so we know what GOOD management looks like. Conversely, we've also seen us without a single playoff win since 1993 and I dare say it's 2009 right now.
Let me just ask this question: If Kokinos & Mangini stood before us and said we're going to be 4-12 in the 4th year of our gig without 1 single playoff appearance - are they the right leadership for the Cleveland Browns? If Mangini isn't capable of making his players better - would you want to see him getting a big raise from the GM? That would be a communication problem
- Tom F.
Keep in mind, there's 31 other teams for a Nick Speegle, Travis Hill, David McMillan, Chase Pittman, Jon Dunn, Andrew Hoffman, Antonio Perkins, Justone Hamilton, Babe Oshinowo and NONE of them got snapped up elsewhere. That's says not JUST the coach or they'd all be out there on other teams proving it was just the coach.
Travis Wilson is now with the Cowboys. According to Chris Mortensen, he's a "sleeper" to contribute for them next year.
Pittman was on the Browns' p-squad last year, and the new regime only recently told him that they don't want him back. I wouldn't be surprised to see him latch on with another team before training camp.
Dunn and Hoffman were late 6th/early 7th round picks - is it really a surprise that they didn't pan out? Hoffman was a guy with 3-4 experience, so taking a flier on him seemed to make sense. Dunn was a developmental OT. Sometimes, those guys don't develop.
Hamilton showed some potential, but he couldn't stay healthy. And when you're a backup safety, you need to be able to go out there every week on specials if you're going to fill a roster spot. Still, he was with the Redskins for most of last year.
Oshinowo's still kicking around the league. He's with the Panthers now.
Anyway, I don't get what any of this proves. Late round picks often amount to nothing, and Phil's work on day two in '05 was particularly bad/unlucky. Still, he brought in some good players on the second day and as UDFA's: Josh Cribbs, Jerome Harrison, Lawrence Vickers, Brandon McDonald, among others. He also signed Lance Moore as a UDFA and claimed Jovan Haye off the waiver wire, but I guess we're supposed to blame him for the coaching staff not seeing anything in those guys.
Personally, I think the behind the scenes issues are reason enough to say that Phil needed to be fired. That said, I don't see his personnel moves as proving that he's somehow a terrible talent evaluator. His personnel moves weren't good enough to justify overlooking his interpersonal/management issues. However, they also weren't bad enough in and of themselves to justify getting rid of the guy.
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Personally, I think the behind the scenes issues are reason enough to say that Phil needed to be fired. That said, I don't see his personnel moves as proving that he's somehow a terrible talent evaluator. His personnel moves weren't good enough to justify overlooking his interpersonal/management issues. However, they also weren't bad enough in and of themselves to justify getting rid of the guy.
I agree. -
That's good because you were getting really angry over a sports discussion. Glad to hear it.
Anyway, Miami was 1-15 the year before Parcells and playoff bound WITH him. I appreciate the creativity though.
Angry? Have I been gone so long that you misinterpret my posts that poorly? I'll use more smiley faces in the future.
Creative c&p on my Parcells comment. Clearly they got better. My point was twofold:
1) their biggest improvements came through free agency (although getting their RBs back from injury and suspension didn't hurt) They didn't make big changes through the draft. and
2) they aren't as good as their record. One year doesnt prove much. Phil was 10-6 a year ago, wasn't he?
I'd also add that they made a huge change in coaching. The WildDawg certainly deserves more of the credit than their draft class. It reflects well on Parcells, but doesnt fit your "build through the draft" plan very well.
Angry? Have I been gone so long that you misinterpret my posts that poorly? I'll use more smiley faces in the future.
Creative c&p on my Parcells comment. Clearly they got better. My point was twofold:
1) their biggest improvements came through free agency (although getting their RBs back from injury and suspension didn't hurt) They didn't make big changes through the draft. and
2) they aren't as good as their record. One year doesnt prove much. Phil was 10-6 a year ago, wasn't he?
I'd also add that they made a huge change in coaching. The WildDawg certainly deserves more of the credit than their draft class. It reflects well on Parcells, but doesnt fit your "build through the draft" plan very well.
LOL! No need for smiley faces. I was just busting your chops in this thread since I hadn't seen you in a while.
Believe it or not, I don't disagree too much of what you're saying about Miami.
Here's what I liked about how Miami made room for their cap efficient FA choices - they first got rid of the following guys who couldn't justify their cap hits:
Jason Taylor DE, Zach Thomas LB, Marty Booker WR, Cleo Lemon QB, LJ Shelton OT, Mike Rosenthal OT, Keith Traylor DT, Derrick Pope LB, Rex Hadnot OG, Chris Liwienski OG, Lance Shulters S, Donnie Spragan LB, Travares Tillman S, Cameron Worrell S and Lorenzo Booker RB.
As far as the record goes, I think you have to merely look at going from 1 win to 11 wins as moving in the right direction. And YES I agree Coaching was a HUGE reason it worked in Miami. So was the QB position where there appeared to be a consensus from Parcells to the Head Coach. The main reason Sparano was Parcells' choice was they shared a philosophy that you improve your offense through it's running game. And the WildDawg was a nice wrinkle for that running game. They kept their D off the field and won because of it.
I just see a guy at the top that EVERYONE bought into and didn't question. As a fan, I WANTED Phil to work but I saw too many things that told me it was more than just bad coaching going wrong. When you think about it what fan wants a new GM or Head Coach for his/her team to suck?
In 05 we won 6 games and in 06 we went back to 4 wins. In 07 we had arguably my favorite draft and a FUN season. However, there were some questions regarding the way 07 ended AND some degree of wonderment as to WHO we were in the overall AFC. We only played 3 AFC opponents that won more than 8 games and lost to all 3. The starting QB regressed in the last 6 weeks or so. The D still ranked about 30th overall. Then in 08 it was right back to the 4-12 football Phil was hired to improve upon in the first place. We're heading toward our 11th season since 1999 and I'd like our fanbase to START feeling like they deserve a little better than 4-6 wins every year.
- Tom F.
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Keep in mind, there's 31 other teams for a Nick Speegle, Travis Hill, David McMillan, Chase Pittman, Jon Dunn, Andrew Hoffman, Antonio Perkins, Justone Hamilton, Babe Oshinowo and NONE of them got snapped up elsewhere. That's says not JUST the coach or they'd all be out there on other teams proving it was just the coach.
Travis Wilson is now with the Cowboys. According to Chris Mortensen, he's a "sleeper" to contribute for them next year.
Pittman was on the Browns' p-squad last year, and the new regime only recently told him that they don't want him back. I wouldn't be surprised to see him latch on with another team before training camp.
Dunn and Hoffman were late 6th/early 7th round picks - is it really a surprise that they didn't pan out? Hoffman was a guy with 3-4 experience, so taking a flier on him seemed to make sense. Dunn was a developmental OT. Sometimes, those guys don't develop.
Hamilton showed some potential, but he couldn't stay healthy. And when you're a backup safety, you need to be able to go out there every week on specials if you're going to fill a roster spot. Still, he was with the Redskins for most of last year.
Oshinowo's still kicking around the league. He's with the Panthers now.
Anyway, I don't get what any of this proves. Late round picks often amount to nothing, and Phil's work on day two in '05 was particularly bad/unlucky. Still, he brought in some good players on the second day and as UDFA's: Josh Cribbs, Jerome Harrison, Lawrence Vickers, Brandon McDonald, among others. He also signed Lance Moore as a UDFA and claimed Jovan Haye off the waiver wire, but I guess we're supposed to blame him for the coaching staff not seeing anything in those guys.
Personally, I think the behind the scenes issues are reason enough to say that Phil needed to be fired. That said, I don't see his personnel moves as proving that he's somehow a terrible talent evaluator. His personnel moves weren't good enough to justify overlooking his interpersonal/management issues. However, they also weren't bad enough in and of themselves to justify getting rid of the guy.
Aloysius said:
Travis Wilson is now with the Cowboys. According to Chris Mortensen, he's a "sleeper" to contribute for them next year.He slept in Cleveland too so that's appropriate. Here's Oshinowo's career:
Cleveland Browns - On September 19, 2006 Cleveland signed Oshinowo from their practice squad. He was active for 3 games and played in the season finale against the Houston Texans, recording 2 tackles.
Chicago Bears - On September 19, 2007 the Chicago Bears signed Oshinowo to their practice squad. He was signed to the Bears active roster with 3 games remaining in the 2007 season. The Bears waived Oshinowo on May 7, 2008.
Washington Redskins - On July 29, 2008, the Washington Redskins signed Oshinowo and waived defensive tackle Zarnell Fitch. He was waived by the team on August 24.
Philadelphia Eagles - Oshinowo was signed to the practice squad of the Philadelphia Eagles on November 19, 2008 after linebacker Andy Studebaker was signed by the Kansas City Chiefs.
Carolina Panthers - Oshinowo signed a future contract with the Carolina Panthers on January 28, 2009.
Doesn't look like he's cracking too many starting lineups or making himself keepable for too many teams' futures. It's not like the 31st ranked defense was a tougher place to make an impression IMO. RAC came from a defense where all these guys were 1st round talents: Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest, Ty Warren. I believe Jarvis Green was the only 2nd round guy. When he had a FA like Ted Washington there he was pre expiration date. There was quite a difference in front line talent provided. These guys were studs BEFORE they arrived at NE.
Getting back to the title of this thread "How did Savage Leave Browns Heading into draft?"
We're coming off 4 wins with only 5 draft picks to address the following needs:
WR - Stallworth out, Patton is in his 30s and Edwards might get traded.
RB - Lewis looked shotso last year as the starter - Harrison is a good backup
Center - Philly deemed Fraley too old 3 years ago but he looked like a Rocky Balboa comeback if we compared him with the 7 or 8 goofballs Phil auditioned prior to Fraley.
Right Side of Oline - Womack and St Clair are affordable stop gap solutions but depth and young guys to groom as future starters are needed.
OLBer - Willie is gone & Wimbley hasn't been impressive the last 2 years.
ILBer - D'Qwell & Barton should be able to handle this BUT Barton's age offers no guarantees for how long. Depth is needed.
Dline - Need rotation guys.
Safety - This area could use some upgrading and depth. Right now we have Adams, Pool and Sorensen.
Corner - a 3rd corner for passing downs, depth and possibly someone to challenge McDonald.
Hopefully the QB position will get settled this year.
I would have liked to seen better luck with more FA choices but I think much of those misfortunes stemmed from injury, wear & tear predisposing injury and upside remaining in those choices. There weren't enough Steinbachs and Rogers types justifying the length of FA contracts we mortgaged our future on. I'm sure my HATE of 4 wins taints this debate in the direction some don't like. Oh well, I was hoping for a better path. Rac was just as accountable so just remember he received a raise from the GM so there's a communication breakdown in the message implied if he's not maximizing the talents of his players. I saw that as GM in over his head. I'm sure there's differing opinions on that.
- Tom F.
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@jadbf said:
But Tom, I think you're trying to make two different arguements here that are not the same arguement.I don't think ANYONE here is claiming Savage did a great job, and Romeo was the whole problem. I don't think ANYONE here is saying that Savage should not have been fired. And again, I 100% agree that the BIGGEST problem with the Savage/Crennel regime was the lack of communication and cooperation that went into drafting players. and honestly I'll lay most of the blame for that on Savage. He wanted too badly to be the face of the organization, and I don't think he listened to his coaches enough about the players they wanted to have drafted. His EGO overcame his football sense and it doomed him. You can pull out all the failed draft picks you think Savage made and I can go to every successful franchise and pick out their failurs too, that's not what this arguement is about
HOWEVER! THAT DOES NOT MEAN that every player Savage drafted that hasn't quite panned out yet is all the fault of Savage or that players lack of skill. Or that you can even JUDGE THEM ALL FAIRLY. Again, I'll go to coaching. and you like to say that Harrison went to a "talent rich team". Well he went to two of them Balt and Pitt, and was CUT from both teams. But kept getting back on their practice squads where he could continue to grow and learn in their system. SO you are actually making my point for me. because your right, a guy like Wimbley gets SCREWED for being drafted to a team that was 31st in defense and is imediately expected to become the savior of said defense. I'll put it to you this way. If Harrison had started his career with the Browns under Romeo Crennel, do you think he'd be the player he is today?? I sure don't.
So in the over all question of judging the players we have drafted, I'd place the blame 60% on Crennel and 40% on Savage.
Thanks JADBF! Good stuff.
I'm WITH everyone about RAC being just as brutal so the huge raise saying "great job Romeo" didn't make sense to me. And it's NOT like the guy hired himself (even if it wasn't Savage that hired him) or gave himself that raise. If RAC wasn't right for the job and Phil KNEW this after the Xmas day embarassment vrs Pitt in season #2 - he didn't do his job in convincing Randy Lerner that RAC needed to be fired IMO. Going from 6 wins down to 4 and losing by 50 to Pitt at home in the 2nd to last game should have been pink slip all the way. Sorry!
The draft was only HALF of what bothered me about Savage. Saying he was going to build through the draft to improve continuity and promote healthier capanomics got me excited about his arrival here. I LOVED our 2007 draft believe it or not. Didn't think much of the 2005 or 2006 drafts and noticed we traded away day 1 of 08 and only had 5 picks. Then I think we only had 4 picks for 09 prior to the Winslow trade. I remembered Phil saying that putting too many marbles into free agency haunts teams that do that. Then Phil put too many marbles into overpaid FAs and that shortchanged planning to build through the draft. I just don't see 9 picks in 2 years as GOOD planning. Every time there was an injury to a FA - I STOPPED saying we just have bad luck and started telling myself we're STILL too over-reliant on overpaid FAs.
We kept bringing in free agents that were either past their prime or nobody else liked their price tags:
Fisk - past prime
Washington - past prime
Andruzzi - HUGE contract for that much wear and tear. He looked crippled in his first month of games.
Wright - marijuana
Stallworth - history showed NONE of his teams wanted to keep him
Dilfer - awful
Joe J - when healthy - productive but it felt like he attended more of our games in blue jeans in 3 years
Shaffer - Got unbelievable cake to play left tackle and he wasn't very good at all
Matt Stewart - bad luck with torn labrum after ho-hum level
Robaire Smith - productive in half his contract - but he's at the age where you get more susecptible to the final injury
Antonio Bryant - talented but was out of football after us because of character issues.
Bentley - BAD luck with the injury but all the marbles went into him
Baxter - bad luck with the injury but he was made 3rd highest player at 1 time which is "all the marbles" thinking again
Peek - Bad luck with too many injuries.
Shaun Smith - Decent flashes in 07 but head case in 08.
Lewis - I LOVED his 07 season but saw the guy Baltimore got impatient with in 08. He looks tired and worn.
All these guys might not sound so bad BUT you have to to understand when you're going heavy hitter with FAs and trading for high priced players like Rogers and Corey Williams, you're back to lowering the priority of the draft. If 1 of those guys doesn't pan out like Corey Williams didn't and the other needs oxygen for 50% of our defensive reps - their overall impact didn't prevent us from 12 losses.
- Tom F.
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