Where to start.....
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I'm tired of the old "yeah, but how long have we been waiting for a winner..."
FOUNDATION. A GREAT ROOF on a FRAME. For the first time since '99.
And Im tired of hearing how great things will be, when it's so painfully obvious they are not.....
The foundation of ANY team is in the trenches....O line and D line secure things to let skill players do their thing...
Our O line and D line are not a good foundation....cant stop the run and cant protect the QB....
So....the comments that we've built a strong foundation are what piss me off most......
After looking over all the posts here and on other threads it really starts here.And Im tired of hearing how great things will be, when it's so painfully obvious they are not.....
The foundation of ANY team is in the trenches....O line and D line secure things to let skill players do their thing...
Our O line and D line are not a good foundation....cant stop the run and cant protect the QB....
So....the comments that we've built a strong foundation are what piss me off most......
A great pass rush can make your DBs look good.
A mediocre QB can lead a great team into the playoffs.
A great OL besides saving your QB's life can make ok RBs look better than they really are.
On it goes.
I'm waiting after many failed attempts to see if the BROWNS can get some franchise DEs and some good middle DL players to see if they can actually win the field position and time of possession battle as step 1.
I've been watching the NFL since the Jim Brown days and am afraid it might take some amazing draft classes including FAs to get headed in the right direction. GO BROWNS, we still love ya'....just like an old marriage or maybe car? LOL.
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We didn't try to make any decent free agent signings, let our Oline walk. Let out Dline go with no one to replace but youngins..... We're in complete rebuild. I just hope we don't get rid of haden and gordon next to save jimmy a few more bucks.
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We didn't try to make any decent free agent signings, let our Oline walk. Let out Dline go with no one to replace but youngins..... We're in complete rebuild. I just hope we don't get rid of haden and gordon next to save jimmy a few more bucks.
We didn't try to make any decent free agent signings, let our Oline walk. Let out Dline go with no one to replace but youngins..... We're in complete rebuild. I just hope we don't get rid of haden and gordon next to save jimmy a few more bucks.
Like you said about the complete rebuild, what gotta-have free agents wanted any part of the 3-13 Cleveland Browns starting another massive cupboard cleaning session?
Mack was leaving either way. The loss of Schwartz will sting. However, we only won 3 games with both Mack and Schwartz here last year.
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I mean you're not wrong either, it's just what the Browns are doing and HAS worked for other teams like the Panthers, Sehawks etc. Literally the number one thing that turns a an above average team to a super-bowl contender is getting value FA's and nailing late round picks. Go down the list of super bowl winners and look at guys like Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Ray Lewis, etc etc.
The BIG problem is we've had awful people picking players. All I can do is what I've done with all the other FO's-give their guys a chance.
I get that....and know that late picks and UDFA's fill gaps and some end up being big time contributors.....but, I assure you, those teams did not cut all their top players and insert a bunch of UDFA's in the hopes they would gel and grow into great teams....just didnt happen that way....
The ONLY team that has done anything remotely close were the Colts....and they got LUCK.....and havent won shit since.....and, they were a 10 win team in 2011, when they tanked(and didnt get rid of ALL their players either)...and jumped right back to 11 wins the next year....soooo, how long before this team sees 11 wins???....
I get that....and know that late picks and UDFA's fill gaps and some end up being big time contributors.....but, I assure you, those teams did not cut all their top players and insert a bunch of UDFA's in the hopes they would gel and grow into great teams....just didnt happen that way....
The ONLY team that has done anything remotely close were the Colts....and they got LUCK.....and havent won shit since.....and, they were a 10 win team in 2011, when they tanked(and didnt get rid of ALL their players either)...and jumped right back to 11 wins the next year....soooo, how long before this team sees 11 wins???....
I mean, I can't sit there and recall what specific teams who are good now did to cut players or not. But talking about FA, the only guy that might have looked like a mistake to lose was Schwartz. Mack didn't want to be here (clearly), Gipson was a tweener at best, and who else really?
What cut has been "dear God they let HIM go!". I'll not holding my breath here man. This team was absolutely devoid of talent sans 4-5 players. Cutting the fat of below-average players to rebuild is fine with me.
Also, are you saying you wouldn't want 11 wins and that means they "haven't won shit". Jesus christ if the browns won 10 games I might die from excitement.
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1. Get a good QB
2. Win football games
1. Get a good QB
2. Win football games
If you suddenly got Otto Graham or Joe Montana back in their prime they'd have a hard time with this bunch to go 8-8, a good start maybe to attract good FAs but not the total fix.
The first ~5+ or so years back from the dead the BROWNS had opportunities to start building a playoff caliber team starting with the DL but it didn't happen (remember a few names?
)Barring some minor miracles from the current young group it looks like more of the same going back 20 years since Cleveland lost pro football. ......geezzz how dreary that sounds.
GO BROWNS, surprise us!
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Archie Manning was a good qb. Went to the Saints.
lost for years.
How did Tenn do last year?
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Mud, I think it's safe to say that many of us share your concerns. I know your feelings on Kruger, and they are justified. He's slow, poor against the run, and easily blocked. My only concern is a rookie is taking his place. Perhaps our coaching staff has the confidence in Ogbah to play better, and frankly, he probably can. But placing that much faith in a rookie who has been moved around all camp is rather frightening.
We aren't going to be good this year, let's get that right. But I think your diagnosis of our offense is a tad bit premature. By no means do I believe we're going to be some damn juggernaut, but I do think we have some decent games scoring the ball this year. Now, the games we DON'T score or move well will be mainly because our defense has placed us in a hole, and RG III has to pass every down while scanning the field. We get down early and it WILL get ugly. We'll have to pass without the threat of running, and after we go 3 and out, the opposition will run all over us and drain the clock. A bad combination to say the least. But if by some miracle we have some games that are pretty close, I could see us moving the ball.
Hue Jackson will employ a rather gimmicky offense, and he will work hard to provide RG III with easy reads. My point being is that he is going to show very little in the preseason of our true offense. Sure, we can glean some aspects from the preseason, but I have to think Hue is playing his cards close to the vest. We've shown the "read-option" a couple times, but we haven't shown it a lot, and we haven't shown variations. The two times or so I saw the option, RG III kept the ball. Once for a huge gain (that could've been way more), and another that Tampa diagnosed well. I'm sure we ran it more than that, but those are the two I remember. What I'm getting at is, I think the read-option will be a slightly bigger part of our playbook than people think, and I'm ok with that. I saw Marcus Mariota complete many easy throws that went for big yards, so I don't want to hear how it's a dead strategy and defenses have figured it out. I'm not saying it will be the basis for our offense, but we'll run it several times a quarter. We showed the basics in preseason, but there are countless variations yet to come.
Coleman didn't practice for about 9 days before the Bucs game, and his rust was obvious. The one catch that was called back for a penalty (shocking) was one of my favorite plays, and Coleman looked right at home with it. He tore up our team before his hammie injury, and while our corners aren't great, and neither are the safeties, I think he'll make an impact. Pryor has also demonstrated the ability to catch the ball and make plays, and Hawkins and Gabriel can too. Toss in Gary, Duke, and possibly Higgins, and I think we'll make it work until Gordon gets back.
Our defense sucks and I can't argue with you. I want to, but I can't. People heard me talk about Shelton, and I hope he works out, but I have my doubts. Gilbert won't cut it, Mingo is gone, Haden needs to be healthy, and we don't have any OLB's that can get to the QB. Oh, and we also can't stop the run, and it might be worse. We lost K'Waun Williams, and our safeties are unproven, and probably undertalented. We're basically a mess, and it pains me.
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1. Get a good QB
2. Win football games
If you suddenly got Otto Graham or Joe Montana back in their prime they'd have a hard time with this bunch to go 8-8, a good start maybe to attract good FAs but not the total fix.
The first ~5+ or so years back from the dead the BROWNS had opportunities to start building a playoff caliber team starting with the DL but it didn't happen (remember a few names?
)Barring some minor miracles from the current young group it looks like more of the same going back 20 years since Cleveland lost pro football. ......geezzz how dreary that sounds.
GO BROWNS, surprise us!
If you suddenly got Otto Graham or Joe Montana back in their prime they'd have a hard time with this bunch to go 8-8, a good start maybe to attract good FAs but not the total fix.
The first ~5+ or so years back from the dead the BROWNS had opportunities to start building a playoff caliber team starting with the DL but it didn't happen (remember a few names?
)Barring some minor miracles from the current young group it looks like more of the same going back 20 years since Cleveland lost pro football. ......geezzz how dreary that sounds.
GO BROWNS, surprise us!
The best strategy would have been to not draft like 8 or10 busts in a row in the first round.
But, whattay gonna do about that now?
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A little late to the game but good stuff as always there Mr. Mud. Honestly, the thing I think some people don't want to accept that I did months ago is this will be a LOOONG season of browns football. For once, I actually appreciated the brass calling it for what it is. They've basically said since the draft that this year was all about young guys taking lumps and hopefully molding into a cohesive unit. We dropped guys like Whitner and Kruger (which I know Mud and I can jive on) who on a great team can contribute (maybe) but on a true rebuilding team do nothing but take reps away from potential long-term starters. The Browns will be a position by week 6-7 I imagine where 75% of the starters will be guys with less than 3 years NFL experience. But you know what? That's okay. This the first time I've felt the Browns are doing this right and the way it has to be done. Stop filling in holes with decent but not great vets for the sake of winning a game or two more and being 5-11 instead of 3-13. Get the guys who you think are the future the reps early and often and let the bumps occur now instead of two years later when the investment hasn't paid off.
I get it for you older folks, I really do. I think it is pretty well known here that I'm a younger gentlemen in his mid (soon to be late) 20's so the misery isn't as set-in as you guys. But as noted, this is definitely going to be an "enjoy the ride" type of season. Hopefully these guys can show towards the back-end of the season that the team has a real future and not one of "I can't wait to see this same crap next season". Honestly, that's all we can do right? At least this rebuild is being done with 10,000 pounds of TNT as opposed to a gallon of gas.
P.S.-Will never agree with you Pettine Mud but we've had that convo once or twice.
I appreciate what your saying...I honestly do.....but you are assuming these young guys are gonna all be good and there is ZERO reason to believe that....MOST of them are mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts....there are only a FEW that even remotely show promise to be anything better than average(if that)....one, maybe two, who show all star potential...
So.....just because they are young, doesn't mean a damn thing......a lot of bad teams are full of young, middling and below average players.....
Honestly....this is gonna be a 5 year deal and I aint gonna participate much in it, cause Im tired of it.....at least Ill have my fall weekends back, for the first time in 40 years.....
I appreciate what your saying...I honestly do.....but you are assuming these young guys are gonna all be good and there is ZERO reason to believe that....MOST of them are mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts....there are only a FEW that even remotely show promise to be anything better than average(if that)....one, maybe two, who show all star potential...
So.....just because they are young, doesn't mean a damn thing......a lot of bad teams are full of young, middling and below average players.....
Honestly....this is gonna be a 5 year deal and I aint gonna participate much in it, cause Im tired of it.....at least Ill have my fall weekends back, for the first time in 40 years.....
OK... time to take a deep breath, my friend... can't go on about Krug's "no talent" play and then decry his replacement just because he is not ready.
What difference does it make how ready Ogbah is? What difference does a few weeks of camp make to his development? Make the change... let the learning begin.
This is not a "team" season. It is not about W/L. It's about player evaluation. It's about establishing the feedback loop for the Big Brown Analytics' Machine (BBAM). It's about seeing if what the FO thought they detected in those "mid to late picks, with a sprinkling of UDFA's and other teams cuts" is really there and to what extent.
... RG III has to pass every down while scanning the field.
Premise is correct. Conclusion assumes facts not in evidence.
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Archie Manning was a good qb. Went to the Saints.
lost for years.
How did Tenn do last year?
Archie Manning was a good qb. Went to the Saints.
lost for years.
How did Tenn do last year?
I remember an interview with Terry Bradshaw during the Steelers hot 70's saying the best QB back then was indeed Archie Manning. Too bad he got killed weekly on a bad 'Aints team as the locals calling them while wearing paper bags on their heads.
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Archie Manning was a good qb. Went to the Saints.
lost for years.
How did Tenn do last year?
I remember an interview with Terry Bradshaw during the Steelers hot 70's saying the best QB back then was indeed Archie Manning. Too bad he got killed weekly on a bad 'Aints team as the locals calling them while wearing paper bags on their heads.
I remember an interview with Terry Bradshaw during the Steelers hot 70's saying the best QB back then was indeed Archie Manning. Too bad he got killed weekly on a bad 'Aints team as the locals calling them while wearing paper bags on their heads.
If the Steelers had taken Archie and the Saints had taken Bradshaw, we likely could be taking about Archie being the guy with the 4 rings.
But they were drafted a year apart....so its irrelevent.
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I remember an interview with Terry Bradshaw during the Steelers hot 70's saying the best QB back then was indeed Archie Manning. Too bad he got killed weekly on a bad 'Aints team as the locals calling them while wearing paper bags on their heads.
If the Steelers had taken Archie and the Saints had taken Bradshaw, we likely could be taking about Archie being the guy with the 4 rings.
But they were drafted a year apart....so its irrelevent.
If the Steelers had taken Archie and the Saints had taken Bradshaw, we likely could be taking about Archie being the guy with the 4 rings.
But they were drafted a year apart....so its irrelevent.
Oh yeah maybe 5 rings, he was that good and tough and he could run when needed. Plus two sons who won Super Bowl rings amazing blood lines there!
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It pretty much feels like we're at expansion-team level talent, like it's 1999
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