The truth about the need for waterboarding...
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Try to not be stupid, K?
Your freedom of speech stops at my verbal doorstep.
Your freedom of speech is not permitted to deny my freedom of speech.
Freedom requires responsibility.
You were irresponsible. Your freedom of speech is still there,
just start your own damn thread. and I won't sabotage it.
So, there you go. Now stfu. LOL
Try to not be stupid, K?
Your freedom of speech stops at my verbal doorstep.
Your freedom of speech is not permitted to deny my freedom of speech.
Freedom requires responsibility.
You were irresponsible. Your freedom of speech is still there,
just start your own damn thread. and I won't sabotage it.
So, there you go. Now stfu. LOL
Wow even the "mighty" Cal can be fooled. Susan Boyle Maybe all the shit you been feeding us is wrong too. Good times.
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I meant loaded responses to the poll.
Along the lines of, Do you still beat your wife?
Steve: are you suggesting waterboarding isn't life-threatening? There are well-documented cases where fatalities have been the result instead of the new location of the WMD's. Not to mention the various throngs of problems that stem from oxygen deprivation to the brain & heart.
KFP: I got the moderator memo about your comments on the older singer. Though I never actually saw the posts (they weren't included in the memo & were gone by the time I got to the thread) so I can't comment. My position on deleting/editing posts is documented on this forum & probably search-able (I'm lazy/busy).
KFP: I got the moderator memo about your comments on the older singer. Though I never actually saw the posts (they weren't included in the memo & were gone by the time I got to the thread) so I can't comment. My position on deleting/editing posts is documented on this forum & probably search-able (I'm lazy/busy).
Sorry Leg, Cal was being Commie.
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Your freedom of speech is not permitted to deny my freedom of speech.
I must of missed that passage in reading the First Amendment.
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Slate has a shockingly objective piece :super
rollseyes: about the S.E.R.E. school (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape) which reveals that despite its opening in the early 1950's and the author's own attending of the school in the mid 1990's, The Bush Administration has been the only one to utilize it. And apparently only use it to train TEAM WATERBOARD.Despite the author's unrivaled ability to make Olbermann appear level headed, he does make a solid point about the direction these "training schools" should move in their instruction:
In fact, our soldiers need training from SERE based on an entirely different premise, as illustrated by the experience of Michael Durant, the helicopter pilot who spent several weeks in captivity when he was captured by Somali fighters during the 1993 "Black Hawk Down" raid. Durant survived by befriending his captors and forcing them to see him as a fellow human being. SERE conditions servicemen to expect nothing but the worst from their captors; Durant's life depended on his ability to understand his captors and find ways to manipulate them psychologically.
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@danamal said:
America always held it's head high that we were more evolved than that and we didnt need to resort to the level of the animals we were fighting ,and that made all the chuck norris vietnam vet/rambo lets bring the prisoners from vietnam movies of the reagan years movies so popular ,we were on the side of what was right and moral.
We are better than this.
Atleast we should be.
Serioulsly Dan that's a positive sentiment but I don't think it's realistic.
It's just that the outcry is only heard during republican administrations.
(Meaning I thik it's been the CIA MO all along.
I don't remember headlines with the Clinton era rendition program though I did hear complaints from human rights groups.
It just didn't make air then.
And let's be clear, we MUST draw the line at torture for sport.
WSS
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Seriously Cal, did you copy and paste this poll from FoxNews.com? It looks EXACTLY how they would write it. DTBH
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Nope, I wrote it entirely on my own. I just put conditions on the premise, that you make a choice between
two choices. Well, I put in a third to be funny...
To put in "All this waterboarding is WRONG and there MUST be a better way" assumes that a better way exists,
hence, the two narrow choices. I was just wondering, in light of the information that another 9/11 was in the works
for LA...
And, I didn't know how far the traing for our own servicemen went. That's stupid crap right there.
OUR servicemen are not the bad guys, THEY don't have information that they can give to end it.
When you mistreat a human being violently, and with torture in other ways, you change them. With children,
it easily becomes a cycle of violence. With terrorists, they are already violent and dangerous way over the edge.
But to treat our own soldiers this way? For what END? To condition them to accept violence and torture as
acceptable? The author makes an excellent point. I can only imagine the trouble some of these servicemen
have afterwards and especially, back in civilian life.
It's enough to be play acted to teach our servicemen, but to actually do it to them? That's a sick, twisted
experiment. That must be stopped.
In a small way, it reminds me of how saddam treated his sons brutally... to teach them to be cold blooded
monsters. Which, they certainly became.
I would seriously wonder, if this has caused some soldiers to come back to civilian life, and crack up,
going violent eventually....
Great relevant article.
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Seriously Cal, did you copy and paste this poll from FoxNews.com? It looks EXACTLY how they would write it. DTBH
***********************************************************************
Nope, I wrote it entirely on my own. I just put conditions on the premise, that you make a choice between
two choices. Well, I put in a third to be funny...
To put in "All this waterboarding is WRONG and there MUST be a better way" assumes that a better way exists,
hence, the two narrow choices. I was just wondering, in light of the information that another 9/11 was in the works
for LA...
And, I didn't know how far the traing for our own servicemen went. That's stupid crap right there.
OUR servicemen are not the bad guys, THEY don't have information that they can give to end it.
When you mistreat a human being violently, and with torture in other ways, you change them. With children,
it easily becomes a cycle of violence. With terrorists, they are already violent and dangerous way over the edge.
But to treat our own soldiers this way? For what END? To condition them to accept violence and torture as
acceptable? The author makes an excellent point. I can only imagine the trouble some of these servicemen
have afterwards and especially, back in civilian life.
It's enough to be play acted to teach our servicemen, but to actually do it to them? That's a sick, twisted
experiment. That must be stopped.
In a small way, it reminds me of how saddam treated his sons brutally... to teach them to be cold blooded
monsters. Which, they certainly became.
I would seriously wonder, if this has caused some soldiers to come back to civilian life, and crack up,
going violent eventually....
Great relevant article.
To put in "All this waterboarding is WRONG and there MUST be a better way" assumes that a better way exists,
It does.
The absolutely shocking tortures by the terrorists and middle east dictators probably work a lot better in a Machiavellina way.
It just doesn't get as much press, save for the Pearl beheading.
Honestly I don't know why sodium pentathol isn't a first line.
Ask a million questions you already know the answers to and check their validity before you proceed.
WSS
WSS
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ar, ar.... LOL
what I MEANT was, a better, more decent and acceptable way to acquire the desperately needed information to save American lives.
Comedy that goes around, comes around, says I. Ya big turkey. @@
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Heh
I revised that as you responded bud.
WSS
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Heh. I'm hurrying too much. Have to go work outside all day. Nice fix....
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I don't believe ANY freakin thing this corrupt Obama admin says.
They lie, they manipulate right out of Saul Alinkski's Rules for Radicals.
This White House presidency is full of stinkie stink.
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Man, reading cal is mind-numbing to the max.
Thankfully, we have smart guys like Salon's Glenn Greenwald to turn to afterwards.
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Well under that circumstance you obviously waterboard because it is the only thing to do.
The problem is that in the real world for every real lead gained through torture, there are tons of bogus ones. And I seriously doubt that a situation would arise where you know that only waterboarding would work. The real way to foil plots is through police work, not torture.
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It's a very difficult question, 'spec, as evidenced by all of these disparate responses and feelings we, in this small subset of the population, have here.
Personally, I'm against torture as a pure human rights issue. I'm also not inclined to believe information given under duress as being valuable. As Harvey Keitel said in Reservoir Dogs, "cut off his little finger, and tell him his thumb is next. After that, he'll tell you he wears women's underwear."
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@inspecta said:
Wanna ask a serious question here.Had we had water boarding in 2000, would you have been in favor of it had we captured a guy with intimate knowledge of 9/11 and water boarding was the only way to get him to talk?
We did have it. And so did the Spanish Inquisition. Only The Bush Administration (the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition "dun dun dunnnhhh" would be appropriate here) gets blamed for it, which was the point of my post.
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It's a very difficult question, 'spec, as evidenced by all of these disparate responses and feelings we, in this small subset of the population, have here.
Personally, I'm against torture as a pure human rights issue. I'm also not inclined to believe information given under duress as being valuable. As Harvey Keitel said in Reservoir Dogs, "cut off his little finger, and tell him his thumb is next. After that, he'll tell you he wears women's underwear."
mz. said:
It's a very difficult question, 'spec, as evidenced by all of these disparate responses and feelings we, in this small subset of the population, have here.Personally, I'm against torture as a pure human rights issue. I'm also not inclined to believe information given under duress as being valuable. As Harvey Keitel said in Reservoir Dogs, "cut off his little finger, and tell him his thumb is next. After that, he'll tell you he wears women's underwear."
I am all for human rights too. But wouldn't it be worse to let thousands die in a terrorist attack than it would to dump water on someone with medics by their side?
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mz. said:
It's a very difficult question, 'spec, as evidenced by all of these disparate responses and feelings we, in this small subset of the population, have here.Personally, I'm against torture as a pure human rights issue. I'm also not inclined to believe information given under duress as being valuable. As Harvey Keitel said in Reservoir Dogs, "cut off his little finger, and tell him his thumb is next. After that, he'll tell you he wears women's underwear."
I am all for human rights too. But wouldn't it be worse to let thousands die in a terrorist attack than it would to dump water on someone with medics by their side?
Sivlerback DPOY said:
I am all for human rights too. But wouldn't it be worse to let thousands die in a terrorist attack than it would to dump water on someone with medics by their side?How do we know what the guy is "confessing" isn't the result of telling us what we want to hear due to torture?
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Information corroboration.
Speaking of waterboarding, once again,
Nasty Pelosi is a liar. Just found out this evening, from a Rep. Congressman, that the waterboarding, etc.
policy was discussed and established in conjunction with DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS in CONGRESS.
CONGRESS was BRIEFED more than SEVERAL TIMES and CONGRESS GAVE THE GREEN LIGHT.
So, watch any Dem investigation go nowhere and quietly goes away.
No wonder Obama doesn't want to have the investigation into the issue. This should be good.
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