I called it before the season started that some of you wouldn't make it halfway through before..

Tour2ma

We could trade Hue...

SF might be willing to deal Chip to us.

Then Jimmah would finally land have his first, true HC love... four-years later...

miktoxic

can't blow it up. we know the tank is in and a lot of us knew before the season.

but there has to be a measuring stick (?). there has to be a deadline. the this has to be done by then date. when is it for hue and the FO? another year of garbage talent ain't gonna cut it. i mean a lot here bitch about those who bitch BUT to a large extent i think most of us 'bitchers' have held it together quite nicely so far. but week number 6 next year the kettle on the stove will have been on for hours and the steam will be making that piercing noise…...

hoorta

@miktoxic said:

can't blow it up. we know the tank is in and a lot of us knew before the season.

but there has to be a measuring stick (?). there has to be a deadline. the this has to be done by then date. when is it for hue and the FO? another year of garbage talent ain't gonna cut it. i mean a lot here bitch about those who bitch BUT to a large extent i think most of us 'bitchers' have held it together quite nicely so far. but week number 6 next year the kettle on the stove will have been on for hours and the steam will be making that piercing noise…...

Nah mik- it's week #7. that's when we have the potential to tie Tampa's record for consecutive losses.

I honestly don't see the Browns winning a game this season. If they do, big surprise. As Ag said after week 8, that's when we should have started seeing some improvement with the young 'uns. I haven't seen anything dramatic yet. As a team they've regressed. Hue pulling Kessler because supposedly he wanted Cody to take some chances. I hope he was really happy watching Josh take chances while we were getting blown out in the second half.

StinkHole

Prophetic Cleve comes through again.

Yeah you called it...you also predicted Pettine wasn't going anywhere, and that no way Trump would become president. So go ahead and use this rare opportunity to puff your chest out.(please no one turn this into a political discussion)

I believe Hue can turn it around.

Eventually.

But so could have Eric Mangini turned it around. Eventually. Problem is that browns fans want a winner now. Been waiting way too long, and wanting a winner now is understandable.

Coaches don't want to come here. The coaches that do know full well they are taking a risk, and have evaluated the risk/reward possibilities.

The reward is of epic proportions. If they are "the one" that has finally succeeded in Cleveland, the one that brings back the once rich tradition this team once enjoyed, then that coach becomes a God in this rabid football town...and highly respected throughout the league.

The risk is that if he fails, his head coaching opportunities go down the toilet...his future is relegated to some assistant or coordinator job.

Kinda like how Cleveland ruins quarterbacks.

If I'm not mistaken Romeo Crennel was the only fired browns coach to become a head coach elsewhere....but not immediately. He was a coordinator first and kind of fell into the position because he was already there.

Tour2ma

@stinkhole said:
(please no one turn this into a political discussion)

Says the guy who opened the door...

How 'bout dem Cowboys!

gftChris

Yeah I don't get it. Every year - "we need stability guys! but, we need to find the right coach before stability!" You know, the one that can come in to an organisation that is 37-90 since 2008, has basically like 3 good players, and immediately turn them in to a winning team based on less and less coaching time allowed. That guy, that'll be obvious right? And so we just keep firing guys after a year or two until we find him?

miktoxic

what we need most that we've been missing since the rebirth is a roster.

i mean a roster with more than just 2-3 guys you can point to. a roster of linemen on both sides of the ball that will beat the piss out of you. thank you dallas and oakland and any other good team for pointing that out to fans of the diva WRs and flashy QBs. get the beef up front then add the steak sauce.

TexasAg1969

@miktoxic said:

what we need most that we've been missing since the rebirth is a roster.

i mean a roster with more than just 2-3 guys you can point to. a roster of linemen on both sides of the ball that will beat the piss out of you. thank you dallas and oakland and any other good team for pointing that out to fans of the diva WRs and flashy QBs. get the beef up front then add the steak sauce.

Is that hearsay or heresy? Or both?

flyingfooldoug

@gftchris said:
Yeah I don't get it. Every year - "we need stability guys! but, we need to find the right coach before stability!" You know, the one that can come in to an organisation that is 37-90 since 2008, has basically like 3 good players, and immediately turn them in to a winning team based on less and less coaching time allowed. That guy, that'll be obvious right? And so we just keep firing guys after a year or two until we find him?

A stat that's even worse. Since 1999 we are 5-11 average overall

gftChris

@flyingfooldoug said:
A stat that's even worse. Since 1999 we are 5-11 average overall

The one thing that struck me is that .500 stat. Since the birth of the franchise, the browns had never been at .500, let alone below it. The days of newsome, brown, kosar etc meant that even though this team has lost about a hundred more games than it's won since its return in '99, the total record was still a winning one. This shell of a franchise has finally even sucked that record away.

I guess it's a sign of parity, it's just taken a generation of losing to overcome the generation(s) of winning previously. Maybe now we can move forward, and keep this franchise over .500.

Bob806

Stinkhole, Hue WANTED to come here. He WANTED this, a chance to turn it around. He has made some dumb moves for sure, but I for one thinks that he can get the ship righted.

Yeah, the way it looks the Browns blew a few games early, and 0-16 is looking real unless there's a turnover fest or a nasty weather game that turns into a game neutralizer.

The diehards will hang on. This sucks now & has sucked bad since 2007. Mostly sucked since Modell fired Paul Brown.

Stand pat in the draft, no trading down, and better days lie ahead.

jiggins7919

Listen, I would guess that 99% of Browns fans KNOW that "blowing it up" isn't the right thing to do, but what people need to understand is fans are absurdly frustrated. Fans don't really have an outlet for that frustration OTHER than saying "fire the coach!" or "fire the DC!". The team obviously isn't going to get a new owner, so what is there REALLY to change, right?

I don't know one single fan who REALLY thought we'd have a good season. In fact, most of us were solidly rooted in the "this year will completely suck" camp, but even those people probably didn't think we'd be 0-10. Even ONE victory helps and lessens the sting of complete suckdom, and to be honest, WE SHOULD'VE HAD that one victory. Hell, we probably should've had more than one. I said before the season started that we might actually shock some people, and start off 2-2, or 2-3...something like that. I wasn't THAT far off, as we came out swinging and just couldn't finish. I then said that once the injuries started to mount, we'd begin the severe losing because bad teams simply don't have the depth. That's where we're at now.

I want to win ONE game, and that's it. I want the top pick in the draft so bad I can taste it. As luck would have it, there is no "Andrew Luck or Jameis Winston" type QB coming out, and that's how it is for us. I could argue that Trubiskey has just as high of a ceiling, but whatever. We need the top pick so we can do whatever we want, whether it's trading it (noooo!), or just taking the guy we want. I think we still will win a game, but I also think the 49's will beat the Bears, so we won't be in jeopardy of losing the top selection.

Browns fans are tired of the losing, tired of looking like crap, and we want something to be proud of. That being said, I don't really believe ANYONE when they say Hue Jackson has to go. Even Ray Horton, who I NEVER loved, deserves two years. If we aren't making SOME kind of progress by 32 games, then yes...he can go. But we aren't losing Hue Jackson. Who could we POSSIBLY replace him with? So Browns fans, if you want to say "Fire Hue Jackson!", I get it, I really do. You're frustrated, and you should be. But I don't really believe that's truly what you want.

I like Cody Kessler, but I'm not sure he's more than a good backup. But guess what? How important is a backup QB in today's NFL? And you know what else? Maybe Cody continues to GET BETTER! Maybe he IS the guy. We don't know right now, and we can always hope. I DO KNOW that Cody needs more time to throw. I DO KNOW he needs a running game. And I DAMN SURE KNOW he needs a defense that can string together two solid halves and keep the opposition out of the damn end zone.

gftChris

I agree, and we *would* have had that one victory had our kicker not broken himself the day before the Miami game, or had we not had that XP blocked and returned against the Ravens, or, or, or...

It sucks that we're winless but if we reset the season and run it through again a hundred times, in 90% of them we're not winless at this stage. We probably end up somewhere between 2-14 and 5-11.

flyingfooldoug

Ya, if anything gets blown up, it should be the owner. Hopefully he gets it before then. I still don't quite get the chain of command yet. Guess I'm still old skool... Hire a GM, he is in charge of hiring a coach and axes staff as needed. Farmer was a puppet gm and now it's a triad? Quad? Duo? Poof! It's like....confusing.

gftChris

@flyingfooldoug said:
Ya, if anything gets blown up, it should be the owner. Hopefully he gets it before then. I still don't quite get the chain of command yet. Guess I'm still old skool... Hire a GM, he is in charge of hiring a coach and axes staff as needed. Farmer was a puppet gm and now it's a triad? Quad? Duo? Poof! It's like....confusing.

It's like Jimmy has deferred power to Sashi, to be 'decision maker in chief', where big decisions are made by a committee of he, paul depodesta, hue jackson and maybe the relevant other guy - andrew berry for player acquisition, ray horton for defensive stuff, pep hamilton for offensive stuff etc.

Sashi has the final say, and it's his job to not fall in love with a player, or overreact to a few bad games etc.

jiggins7919

I think we're going to be ok, but it'll take some time. Let's look at this last draft for instance. I've heard that it takes a few years until the success/failure of a draft can fully be evaluated, but when we look at this previous draft, I think I can make an argument for it being a success. Was it perfect? Of course not. Did we miss on players? Hell yes we did, as did other teams. Nobody saw Dak Prescott being that good, and while he went to the perfect team, it's safe to say that he took those advantages and ran with them. But let's look at what we DO have. Coleman shows promise, and was derailed by a crazy, bullshit injury. Just our luck. Ogbah has flashed, but remains largely inconsistent to my eyes. He does NOT, however, appear to be a "bust". He needs to finish strong, and it was good to see him get a few hits on Flacco. That one penalty on him was total crap. Nassib has also flashed, although his play seems to have tailed off after the injury. He remains a threat to knock down passes, and his motor is high, but he too needs to finish strong. Seth Devalve has struggled just to get on the field, and his injury history has definitely flared up in the worst way. But you know what? We thought he could be a mismatch guy, and he put that on full display with that incredible touchdown against the Ravens. This was no 4 yard quick hitch, it was a deep pass beautifully executed by our offense that gave us the LEAD. No garbage time here. It was a huge play. To me, that's promise.

And what about the Collins trade? It was a shocking, ballsy, and amazing trade we executed to give us a defensive spark, and it worked. Now, Collins is just one guy, but his presence has been noted. He literally can "do it all", but nothing will matter with him if he walks at the end of the year. I don't care WHAT IT TAKES, we simply must lock him up. I don't care if he's the highest paid player on our team. He's THAT important.

Although not a draft pick, how about Terrell Pryor? Just like with Collins, we HAVE to find a way to lock him up as well. We found Pryor, nurtured his ability, and we need to KEEP HIM. He's another success story, as is Cody Kessler. As I previously stated, Cody might not be the starter we so desperately need, but at the very least, he IS a solid backup. That's important, and we drafted him.

What I'm saying is, we actually have a few successes. It might not mean much because we're 0-10, but I think it does. We're building a FOUNDATION. 2017 Draft will mean everything for our team. But the front office we have now made some good moves, we've selected some promising young guys, and I think maybe...just maybe...we have finally got it right. Talk to me this time NEXT year, and let's see where we are. Do I expect to make the playoffs next year? No, no I don't. But do I expect us to be CLOSE? Yep.

The Gipper

@londonbrown said:
Harry Potter cunt LOL

Tour2ma

@jiggins7919 said:
What I'm saying is, we actually have a few successes. It might not mean much because we're 0-10, but I think it does. We're building a FOUNDATION. 2017 Draft will mean everything for our team. But the front office we have now made some good moves, we've selected some promising young guys, and I think maybe...just maybe...we have finally got it right. Talk to me this time NEXT year, and let's see where we are. Do I expect to make the playoffs next year? No, no I don't. But do I expect us to be CLOSE? Yep.

With you all the way up to your 2017 expectations... Close to the playoffs? No... can't see 7-9 or so in 2017 from where we are now.

Yes... we could have, maybe should have won as many as two games to date this season, but we did not. This is a team that is still finding ways to lose. Step one is to break that habit, stay in every game and make opponents earn every victory. Step two is finding a way to win close games. Step three? Find ways to win games when we are being outplayed. To my mind playoff contention comes somewhere between steps two and three.

Learning how to win is one of those NFL cliches we hear repeatedly, but it is one I believe to be true.

jiggins7919

Yeah, it's tough to argue with you, but I can see us making some progress and being 6-10 next year. If you win 6 games, you probably lost a handful of others that were close, and it means the playoffs might be right around the corner. Of course, when you're 0-10, 6 wins seems like a total pipe dream, but I don't want people to forget he won 8 games in Oakland with marginal talent. I realize 8 games isn't the "be all, end all" of coaching achievements, but it's not bad considering what that team was working with.

Nothing is going to matter until we get our defense shored up. The back end is utterly atrocious, and we all know our pass rush completely sucks too. We took steps to address that in the 2016 draft and trading for Collins, so hopefully in 2017 we reap the rewards. The back end will be infinitely more difficult, as rookies tend to have a very high learning curve, and shouldn't be counted on to kick ass right away. Veteran safeties and corners that are quality players, either don't leave or will command a shitload of money. Remember our safety Gipson? Yeah, he sucks btw. Like...big time in Jax. Justin Gilbert not working out basically destroyed us. We need SO MUCH secondary help, that it's not possible to fix in one offseason. Hope I'm wrong.

Our biggest hope for a quicker turnaround is the play of Cody Kessler. If he can find his niche and pick up the pace scoring points (doesn't have to WIN, but does need to increase 3rd down and point totals), we can win 6 games or so MUCH faster than if he doesn't work out. I mean, think about it. If Cody ISN'T the guy...who in the natural HELL is going to suit up as QB? I went back and watched Cody's drives against the Ravens, and you know what? The kid hardly EVER had enough time to throw. So guess what happened? Cody got "happy feet" and bailed on the pocket before he really had to a few times, and THAT'S what probably pissed off Hue Jackson the most (only my opinion). I went back and saw a few times where Cody just bailed out and rolled right WAY before he had to, but it was really hard to blame him. Baltimore sent multiple blitzes from about every angle possible, and our genius OL wasn't always able to pick them up efficiently. We did have a few good plays too, one of them early when Vitale picked up a hard charging blitzer, and Cody found Coleman for a nice little gain of around 9 yards. Problem is, that was the exception, not the rule.

Something else I noticed was the obvious attempt at looking down the field, but either we didn't have the time for the route to develop, or Cody went elsewhere with the ball. I also saw two pass interferences that weren't called...both on 3rd down. So if the defense is loading up against the pass, why can't we run it? Why can't we get 4-5 yards on some runs? How are the backs getting hit in the backfield so much? Why did we run like one quick slant? Why didn't we try some crossing patterns like Baltimore killed us with? Where was the creativity?

We have a long ways to go, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we DO completely suck next year and we have another round of "hoping to win one game". But I don't think so. I'm giving Hue a lot of credit here, but I'm hoping he takes the painful lessons from the Ravens game, the Cowboys game, the Bengals and every other loss and applies the data towards finding solutions. Yeah, we look awful right now. We look like we don't have ANYTHING. Nothing on offense, next to nothing on defense, and a whole lot of crap in between. But right now it's about surviving. Keep the staff together, use our draft picks well, sign some free agents if possible, AND KEEP COLLINS AND PRYOR. I think we can get better, and I'd love nothing more than for us to close out the season on a strong note. Maybe not winning 3 in a row, but just playing better football. With all that said, here's what I can tell you with 100% certainty: If we don't figure out a way to run the ball and give our QB some time to throw, NOTHING will matter. The run sets up the entire ballgame, and it's the primary reason Cody isn't scoring more points.

Tour2ma

... and certainly your optimism is only outsized compared to my skepticism which restricts me to 4-ish wins in 2018 2017.

OL: Getting Bito back certainly helps shore up the OL leaving only one widely accepted hole. Even on our existing roster there are two possible solutions that would allow his replacement with the thickest resume, Greco, to slide over permanently: Drango or Paz... with the latter requiring Shon Coleman to finally step up. Either of which still leaves Reiter as a fall back direct replacement.

Front 7: A Garett (4-3 DE) or Allen (3-4) opposite an extended Collins appeals. Add a returning Des Bryant, Ogbah and Stample, and a developed Nassib?

2ndary: A new safety to pair with the winner of a Poyer/Kindred/Campbell competition?

And then it's on the QB... agree there are signs of Kess possibilities, but the unresolved shadow of RG3 lingers as well. That resolution should indicate how deep the belief in Kess is.