Purge - 2017 - what'll happen?
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I would assume that we've got a few guys heading to free agency in March who aren't going to let the door hit them in the ass.
Im not sure.....anythings possible. but I certainly dont see another exodus like we had last season....(no good ones left)
I see only 2 viable players that other teams would be trying to get away from us.....Collins and Pryor.....
The rest?.....not much there....
Now, in 2017, there will be a few more......Greco, Bitonio, Kirksey, Bryant and Davis head the list......
it'll be interesting to see if our FO finds a way to seal a few of these up before hand....Bito and Kirksey in particular...
Im not sure.....anythings possible. but I certainly dont see another exodus like we had last season....(no good ones left)
I see only 2 viable players that other teams would be trying to get away from us.....Collins and Pryor.....
The rest?.....not much there....
Now, in 2017, there will be a few more......Greco, Bitonio, Kirksey, Bryant and Davis head the list......
it'll be interesting to see if our FO finds a way to seal a few of these up before hand....Bito and Kirksey in particular...
Precisely!
Losing Bitonio had a profound impact lending credence to the statement "absence makes the heart grow fonder." Bryant was our best 5 technique so losing him for all 16 weeks was big sting too. His age and his previous contract size could make re-signing him a challenge.
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Im not sure.....anythings possible. but I certainly dont see another exodus like we had last season....(no good ones left)
I see only 2 viable players that other teams would be trying to get away from us.....Collins and Pryor.....
The rest?.....not much there....
Now, in 2017, there will be a few more......Greco, Bitonio, Kirksey, Bryant and Davis head the list......
it'll be interesting to see if our FO finds a way to seal a few of these up before hand....Bito and Kirksey in particular...
Precisely!
Losing Bitonio had a profound impact lending credence to the statement "absence makes the heart grow fonder." Bryant was our best 5 technique so losing him for all 16 weeks was big sting too. His age and his previous contract size could make re-signing him a challenge.
Precisely!
Losing Bitonio had a profound impact lending credence to the statement "absence makes the heart grow fonder." Bryant was our best 5 technique so losing him for all 16 weeks was big sting too. His age and his previous contract size could make re-signing him a challenge.
Right.....and with all our issues on the OL......losing Greco and Bito would not be a smart way to go......they should work tirelessly to sign both THIS off season, instead of waiting for the courting and bidding war to begin.......
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Well the most obvious solution is to use multiple picks to move up and fill this team with a few first rate players.
Oh wait. This is the same whiz kids doing the draft again this year.
Won't happen.
Well the most obvious solution is to use multiple picks to move up and fill this team with a few first rate players.
Won't happen.
Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
The only thing your solution obviously is? Impractical...
You give them far more credit than they have deserved thus far Tim. But we shall see if they are fast learners, slow learners or uneducables.
Or you give them far less...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Precisely!
Losing Bitonio had a profound impact lending credence to the statement "absence makes the heart grow fonder." Bryant was our best 5 technique so losing him for all 16 weeks was big sting too. His age and his previous contract size could make re-signing him a challenge.
Right.....and with all our issues on the OL......losing Greco and Bito would not be a smart way to go......they should work tirelessly to sign both THIS off season, instead of waiting for the courting and bidding war to begin.......
Right.....and with all our issues on the OL......losing Greco and Bito would not be a smart way to go......they should work tirelessly to sign both THIS off season, instead of waiting for the courting and bidding war to begin.......
But once again the key questions will be, will they do this and have they the foresight to understand the stakes of not doing this?
And you are right Tour, I give them very little credit at all. And I am seeing that this has slowly been happening with several on here as we have watched all of 2016 unfold. So far it looks like an unstoppable disaster. I can only imagine what is going through Jimmy's mind, "WTF!"
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Don't be too sure of that.
These whiz kids have a year of their own scouting staff'/ reports, they have a firm grasp of what this team lacks and what this team possesses, and an idea of how to fill the voids.
Year one was building a foundation. Acquire as much capital as possible and lay a YOUNG base to work from.
Year two - don't be surprised to see a decent move or two. Maybe a larger FA acquisition for a young talented player, possibly a package deal to move up and take an extra late first round/ early second rounder.
We're not going to be bringing in Tony Romo or any other aging veteran, that's certain. But a productive player coming off his second contract who may command a bit of coin? Maybe. An underperforming talent coming off their rookie contract? Almost certainly.
As for the draft, we're not walking out it with 14 more players, I know that much.
What foundation have they built this year? We've had a few positives but i haven't seen any foundation.
What foundation have they built this year? We've had a few positives but i haven't seen any foundation.
As critical as Ive been, I do see a glimmer of improvement on D and, at least, a start toward a foundation.....nothing earth shattering, but a step forward in some respects.....
This FO has the benefit of Shelton and Kirksey being one year better and looking like true "quality" pro's......plus, the addition of Ogbah and Collins has helped.....so, now, instead of complete disaster at DL and LB....we are 1/2 way settled.....
Cant believe I just said that......""blink""
Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
Lies.....all lies.....
I can....and WILL....be done.....daggommit....
But once again the key questions will be, will they do this and have they the foresight to understand the stakes of not doing this?
Who knows.....year one was full of whackadoodle decisions......maybe they've learned something.....maybe not.....
Year 2....they need to bring it.....or else.....
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Well the most obvious solution is to use multiple picks to move up and fill this team with a few first rate players.
Won't happen.
Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
The only thing your solution obviously is? Impractical...
You give them far more credit than they have deserved thus far Tim. But we shall see if they are fast learners, slow learners or uneducables.
Or you give them far less...
Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
Id say most teams have a goal to score 2 -3 players each draft......and they are allotted 7 picks each.....
So....with that in mind.....what is the goal when you have 14 picks?....and 5 inside the top 65?......
Definitely should have at least a "few first rate players" as your objective.....
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McC is more of like an offensive coordinator/mentor. RG3 can't even stay healthy enough to play in the league. What could he offer to teach young QBs?
How can you even prove this? Because he rode the bench for most of his career? Why do you guys feel like we need someone to teach our young qbs? At this point it feels like a wasted roster spot.
How can you even prove this? Because he rode the bench for most of his career? Why do you guys feel like we need someone to teach our young qbs? At this point it feels like a wasted roster spot.
More a case for McC over RG3...
RG is still in the "something to prove" mode... kinda like Hoyer was here. Means they can't or won't fully commit to mentoring the younger teammates trying to make sure they sit every Sunday.
McC on the other hand is at the point in his career where he is willing to accept whatever role falls to him.
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Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
Id say most teams have a goal to score 2 -3 players each draft......and they are allotted 7 picks each.....
So....with that in mind.....what is the goal when you have 14 picks?....and 5 inside the top 65?......
Definitely should have at least a "few first rate players" as your objective.....
Id say most teams have a goal to score 2 -3 players each draft......and they are allotted 7 picks each.....
So....with that in mind.....what is the goal when you have 14 picks?....and 5 inside the top 65?......
Definitely should have at least a "few first rate players" as your objective.....
If you are lucky and good, let the draft come to you and hit a couple Day 3 picks... then, maybe, just maybe, you might land five quality starters in a single draft. But the odds you put forth a couple days ago in a thread end up getting very long indeed.
The route of trading up just diminishes your chances...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
What foundation have they built this year? We've had a few positives but i haven't seen any foundation.
We have the youngest roster in the league and very few, if any, bloated veteran contracts eating up cap space (i.e. Kruger, Bess). Haden's contract may be our only minus contract.
We have enough draft capital to stay in place and add 4-5 starters and 4-5 backups, plus we're top ten in cap space in a year where there is some promising young talent hitting the market. The draft capital we have also allows us the freedom to move around in the first two rounds to ensure we get the guy(s) we want, as opposed to hoping for the best.
We have established two legitimate receiving threats in the WR corps, two legitimate threats on the offensive line, two legitimate threats in our linebacking corps, two solid enough runners, two solid enough defensive linemen and a solid enough tight end.
Those are all foundational pieces in rebooting a franchise. The number of wins on the board doesn't matter in the least right now.
We have the youngest roster in the league and very few, if any, bloated veteran contracts eating up cap space (i.e. Kruger, Bess). Haden's contract may be our only minus contract.
We have enough draft capital to stay in place and add 4-5 starters and 4-5 backups, plus we're top ten in cap space in a year where there is some promising young talent hitting the market. The draft capital we have also allows us the freedom to move around in the first two rounds to ensure we get the guy(s) we want, as opposed to hoping for the best.
We have established two legitimate receiving threats in the WR corps, two legitimate threats on the offensive line, two legitimate threats in our linebacking corps, two solid enough runners, two solid enough defensive linemen and a solid enough tight end.
Those are all foundational pieces in rebooting a franchise. The number of wins on the board doesn't matter in the least right now.
I like your optimism dude. And i know it might take a few years to do sashi's "plan". Shit if we make the playoffs in a few years it'll be worth it. But if we go 0-16 this year, and 0-16 next year, my patience will be wearing thin.
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Id say most teams have a goal to score 2 -3 players each draft......and they are allotted 7 picks each.....
So....with that in mind.....what is the goal when you have 14 picks?....and 5 inside the top 65?......
Definitely should have at least a "few first rate players" as your objective.....
If you are lucky and good, let the draft come to you and hit a couple Day 3 picks... then, maybe, just maybe, you might land five quality starters in a single draft. But the odds you put forth a couple days ago in a thread end up getting very long indeed.
The route of trading up just diminishes your chances...
If you are lucky and good, let the draft come to you and hit a couple Day 3 picks... then, maybe, just maybe, you might land five quality starters in a single draft. But the odds you put forth a couple days ago in a thread end up getting very long indeed.
The route of trading up just diminishes your chances...
I could see us packaging some of our mid round capital to take another player in the second, still leaving us with a surplus of picks. I don't think we'll attempt to get two top ten picks or anything like that.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
We have the youngest roster in the league and very few, if any, bloated veteran contracts eating up cap space (i.e. Kruger, Bess). Haden's contract may be our only minus contract.
We have enough draft capital to stay in place and add 4-5 starters and 4-5 backups, plus we're top ten in cap space in a year where there is some promising young talent hitting the market. The draft capital we have also allows us the freedom to move around in the first two rounds to ensure we get the guy(s) we want, as opposed to hoping for the best.
We have established two legitimate receiving threats in the WR corps, two legitimate threats on the offensive line, two legitimate threats in our linebacking corps, two solid enough runners, two solid enough defensive linemen and a solid enough tight end.
Those are all foundational pieces in rebooting a franchise. The number of wins on the board doesn't matter in the least right now.
I like your optimism dude. And i know it might take a few years to do sashi's "plan". Shit if we make the playoffs in a few years it'll be worth it. But if we go 0-16 this year, and 0-16 next year, my patience will be wearing thin.
I like your optimism dude. And i know it might take a few years to do sashi's "plan". Shit if we make the playoffs in a few years it'll be worth it. But if we go 0-16 this year, and 0-16 next year, my patience will be wearing thin.
I don't think it will take as long as people think for us to be competitive.
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Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
Id say most teams have a goal to score 2 -3 players each draft......and they are allotted 7 picks each.....
So....with that in mind.....what is the goal when you have 14 picks?....and 5 inside the top 65?......
Definitely should have at least a "few first rate players" as your objective.....
Id say most teams have a goal to score 2 -3 players each draft......and they are allotted 7 picks each.....
So....with that in mind.....what is the goal when you have 14 picks?....and 5 inside the top 65?......
Definitely should have at least a "few first rate players" as your objective.....
Raiders did pretty good in 2014
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The reason they have committed to this process is job security. They have sold Jimmy on this system.
Once they draft a QB at the top of the draft, the process starts
If they keep saying, "there isn't a QB worth starting a team with" they can keep their jobs
If they would've taken Wentz last draft, they would be gone after next year.
Now they have a bunch of loser QBs and can say they don't have their guy yet
Once they take the QB of the future, and they still suck, they are gone
The reason they have committed to this process is job security. They have sold Jimmy on this system.
Once they draft a QB at the top of the draft, the process starts
If they keep saying, "there isn't a QB worth starting a team with" they can keep their jobs
If they would've taken Wentz last draft, they would be gone after next year.
Now they have a bunch of loser QBs and can say they don't have their guy yet
Once they take the QB of the future, and they still suck, they are gone
I never thought if it like that! Several sports writers project the Browns second pick at 18 and taking an OLB
at number one Myles Garett is the BPA so far!
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If you are lucky and good, let the draft come to you and hit a couple Day 3 picks... then, maybe, just maybe, you might land five quality starters in a single draft. But the odds you put forth a couple days ago in a thread end up getting very long indeed.
The route of trading up just diminishes your chances...
I could see us packaging some of our mid round capital to take another player in the second, still leaving us with a surplus of picks. I don't think we'll attempt to get two top ten picks or anything like that.
I could see us packaging some of our mid round capital to take another player in the second, still leaving us with a surplus of picks. I don't think we'll attempt to get two top ten picks or anything like that.
If we use the Harvard chart, as I suspect we do for obvious reasons, instead of the "standard" NFL chart, then we value picks too much to package and move up.
I don't think it will take as long as people think for us to be competitive.
For the division? 2018... as much due to others decline as our rise.
For the conference? Much harder call...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well the most obvious solution is to use multiple picks to move up and fill this team with a few first rate players.
Won't happen.
Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
The only thing your solution obviously is? Impractical...
You give them far more credit than they have deserved thus far Tim. But we shall see if they are fast learners, slow learners or uneducables.
Or you give them far less...
Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
The only thing your solution obviously is? Impractical...
Ah, but it was indeed done Tour- once. How about 4 HOF guys? 1974 Steelers. Probably never be repeated, but we can hope......
*Lynn Swann, wide receiver, USC, first round, 21st overall.
*Jack Lambert, linebacker, Kent State, second round, 46th overall.
*John Stallworth, wide receiver, Alabama A&M, fourth round, 82nd overall.
*Mike Webster, center, Wisconsin, fifth round, 125th overall
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I could see us packaging some of our mid round capital to take another player in the second, still leaving us with a surplus of picks. I don't think we'll attempt to get two top ten picks or anything like that.
If we use the Harvard chart, as I suspect we do for obvious reasons, instead of the "standard" NFL chart, then we value picks too much to package and move up.
I don't think it will take as long as people think for us to be competitive.
For the division? 2018... as much due to others decline as our rise.
For the conference? Much harder call...
If we use the Harvard chart, as I suspect we do for obvious reasons, instead of the "standard" NFL chart, then we value picks too much to package and move up.
At a base level, maybe, since the chart indicates that there might not be a significant drop off in career value from the second to the third round...or even from the first to the second.
However, applying sample data here is a dangerous game, since we are dealing with individuals and not groups. What's more important, in my opinion, is the variance. That's what allows for more informed decisions when applying sample data to the individual - exactly what we're doing when we make draft picks.
For example, the coefficient of variation drastically increases the further in the draft you move along, meaning that later picks are infinitely more volatile and harder to predict compared to earlier picks, contrary to what many in here have stated.
Yes, it's true...a first round bust hurts much more than a fifth round bust. But that doesn't mean that picking a first round player is harder. On the contrary, the Harvard study shows that you have a statistically better chance of picking a legitimate contributing player in the early rounds compared to the later rounds.
The "Harvard chart" draws three broadstroke conclusions:
- On average, there isn't as drastic of a statistical dropoff in players careers from one round to the next as we thought.
- There is a much larger degree of variance in the career trajectories of late round picks than there is in early round players.
- The potential of picking a superstar player significantly diminishes the further into the draft you get.
Looking at this roster, I'm not seeing a lack of contributing members, I'm seeing a lack of high-level superstar potential.
At a very generalized level, the article calls Josh McCown essentially "Mr. NFL Average" - a CAV of 15 and what should be expected for a third round pick based on their findings. He's a marginal player who is, at best, a spot starter but really is a mid-to-high level backup. Meanwhile, the first overall pick is a Rodney Harrison.
We have a ton of Josh McCown's, yet few Rodney Harrison's.
If I'm in this FO, I'm looking at the revamped "Harvard chart" and putting my eggs in the 10-40 pick range. That allows us the chance to take a handful of players that are more statistically likely to be above the "McCown-level", with the distinct possibility of achieving the "Harrison-level".
(And, though it shouldn't have to be said, this study shows that one should never expect a Manning-level contributor, even at the top pick. Those are an anomaly. The highest you should ever expect from a #1 QB is a career similar to that of Rich Gannon or Drew Bledsoe. Just want to make sure that's noted again.)
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
I'm still willing to give the FO the benefit of the doubt... it's only been 1 year in a 3 to 5-year plan, since the owner wishes to build through the draft - which means NO high priced free agent signings... which everyone seems to ignore on these boards... Translation: no instant-gratification-1-year-turnaround.
They needed bodies with the first draft. They went after them. 1 year isn't enough to evaluate anyone's career. I didn't think they got enough for the trade-down from 8 to 15, but we will see.
They didn't see a franchise QB, so didn't draft a mediocre one. Great call. I give them excellent marks for that.
They still need more bodies, so the next draft might be similar, but in year 2 of this plan I would also expect them to use the picks instead of trading them. Maybe this year the trade down from 2 to 8 nets an actual pick, instead of another trade... which they didn't get enough for last time, IMO
The FO expectation for this year was probably 2-4 wins. Couple of early games they should have won, but didn't. Still can win 2 of last 4. Still looks like they're competing to me. They're in every game until the last 1.5 quarters.
Year 2 of this rebuild was probably a 6-8 win projection for this FO. Doable.
Follow the process.
There are no instant turn arounds when you are building through the draft and there aren't many players who walk off college field and onto pro and are instant superstars. Don't need a lot of analytics to figure that one out.
If they're in the same spot next year, i'll be much more critical, but this isn't the time to start calling for people's heads.
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Man this 'we're gonna sit on our rookie roster and watch them develop ' thing is just horseshit. Too many seasons and too many busts to put up with it anymore. I don't care if you were a top ten pick or a 5th round pick, you've been playing football good enough half your life to make it to the nfl now all of a sudden you can't block tackle or cover? GTFO. Theses guys are young for sure but to show that product on the field rests in the lap of the FO and coaching staff.
Pitiful. -
Man this 'we're gonna sit on our rookie roster and watch them develop ' thing is just horseshit. Too many seasons and too many busts to put up with it anymore. I don't care if you were a top ten pick or a 5th round pick, you've been playing football good enough half your life to make it to the nfl now all of a sudden you can't block tackle or cover? GTFO. Theses guys are young for sure but to show that product on the field rests in the lap of the FO and coaching staff.
Pitiful.
Agree. I've been told that they can't make any halftime adjustments to the game plan for lack of talent. The kids know how to play the game. It's our GM quadrafuck that doesn't get it and coaching that doesn't or can't make game time adjustments.Man this 'we're gonna sit on our rookie roster and watch them develop ' thing is just horseshit. Too many seasons and too many busts to put up with it anymore. I don't care if you were a top ten pick or a 5th round pick, you've been playing football goodvenough half your life to make it to the nfl now all of a sudden you can't block tackle or cover? GTFO. Theses guys are young for sure but to show that product on the field rests in the lap of the FO and coaching staff.
Pitiful.
Hell, even the News Herald is yelling at the Haslam's that they should petition the NFL for a name change. They don't deserve the name Cleveland Browns
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Not a matter of won't... it's a matter of "can't". You simply cannot land "a few first rate players" in a single draft... it cannot be done.
The only thing your solution obviously is? Impractical...
Ah, but it was indeed done Tour- once. How about 4 HOF guys? 1974 Steelers. Probably never be repeated, but we can hope......
*Lynn Swann, wide receiver, USC, first round, 21st overall.
*Jack Lambert, linebacker, Kent State, second round, 46th overall.
*John Stallworth, wide receiver, Alabama A&M, fourth round, 82nd overall.
*Mike Webster, center, Wisconsin, fifth round, 125th overall
Ah, but it was indeed done Tour- once. How about 4 HOF guys? 1974 Steelers. Probably never be repeated, but we can hope......
*Lynn Swann, wide receiver, USC, first round, 21st overall.
*Jack Lambert, linebacker, Kent State, second round, 46th overall.
*John Stallworth, wide receiver, Alabama A&M, fourth round, 82nd overall.
*Mike Webster, center, Wisconsin, fifth round, 125th overall
lol... if it helps you sleep better, h, then I'll not mention that you're one player shy of "a few" by my count...
At a base level, maybe, since the chart indicates that there might not be a significant drop off in career value from the second to the third round...or even from the first to the second.
However, applying sample data here is a dangerous game, since we are dealing with individuals and not groups. What's more important, in my opinion, is the variance. That's what allows for more informed decisions when applying sample data to the individual - exactly what we're doing when we make draft picks.
No doubt... if there's a prospect who is in danger of leaving the board that we have to have, then, yes, there's a chance we'll try to make a trade. But the difference in valuations of the 2 charts is so vastly different that it is hard to see us pulling the trigger.
Let's say we want to move our 1st pick in R3 (#65 overall) to R2's 53rd overall. By the traditional chart the 53rd's value is 370 and our 65th overall's is 265. Depending on the number of compensatories handed out at the end of R3 our first pick in R4 should make up the difference of ~100 points. So a traditional deal of:
#65 + #98 ---> #65... or in points 265+108 = 373 ---> 370
should get done.
But looking at the deal through Harvard's eyes brings a much different points evaluation of:
128.0+89.5 = 217.5 -----> 142.8!!!
In essence Harvard's chart says you are trading away half again, 150%, of the value you are getting. And if you believe in the Harvard chart then the player you'd be targeting has to be a faller you had pegged for the late first round... a player you'd already presumably have passed over three times including early in R2 when his value was first in line with your pick.
The only way I'd pursue such a deal is if I saw a gap developing in my board that devalued the two picks I was trading away and I did not see an advantageous trade-down developing.
This does not mean we can't get "that player" as there is another, far more economical means to land him/them ... reaching/over-drafting them. Not that this is a spur of the moment thing... it's not... it's an outcome of our big board process. It's what we did pretty clearly did with Kessler and arguably a "few" others in the 2016 draft. I look for a repeat in 2017.
Man this 'we're gonna sit on our rookie roster and watch them develop ' thing is just horseshit. Too many seasons and too many busts to put up with it anymore. I don't care if you were a top ten pick or a 5th round pick, you've been playing football goodvenough half your life to make it to the nfl now all of a sudden you can't block tackle or cover? GTFO. Theses guys are young for sure but to show that product on the field rests in the lap of the FO and coaching staff.
Just as High School players get culled in college, so, too, do college kids get culled in the Pros. Always has been that way; always will be that way.
Sometimes it is simply a matter of no longer being able to control whomever is in front of you... because "whomever" is suddenly a different player, one much better than the one you blocked/tackled/covered at the last level.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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