The 3-4 is dead in cleveland
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Given how much our defence will face a 3+ WR set and we're forced in to the nickel, along with the very clichéd 'hybrid' nature of horton's defense, the 3-4/4-3 debate is largely moot. I wonder how many times we have 3 down linemen and how many 4? If you check the snap count vs PIT, we had 240 snaps played by DL guys (including Ogbah so could be slightly off) across 69 plays, meaning we had a shade under 3.5 DL per play; 206 LBer snaps for just under 3 per play and 312 DB snaps for a little over 4.5 per play. And yes, 3.5+3+4.5 = 11.
So in general we're lining up with more DL than LB and we're sometimes showing a 3-4 front, sometimes a 4-3, and often a 4-2 because we're in nickel. I'm sure you could argue that we should *never* be in a three man front, but how often does it actually happen?
If you go back to the ravens game you see we end up (on average again) in almost exactly the same ratios, just under 3.5 DL, 3 LB and a little over 4.5 DBs per play.
Against the cowboys it was a little over 3.3 for both DL and LB, and 4.4 DBs.
Against the Jets - and this is while Ogbah was still listed as a backer, and before the Collins trade - it was 2.9 - 3.1 - 5.
Bengals - 3.1 - 3.3 - 4.7 (with rounding)
Titans - 2.6 - 4.0 - 4.4
Now obviously there's more to it than just the snap counts but it's the best we can do without going through snap by snap and deciding what front we're in - I'm not going to do that but feel free to give better info if you want. But generally it seems like we're moving towards having more DL on the field per snap - 2.6/3.1/2.9/3.3/3.5/3.5. Does that make you happy, Clévé?
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Whilst on the topic of the D, they've been under-the-radar getting somewhat better as the season's gone on. Haden being back and healthy has helped, and clearly having Collins has been pretty big, while the emergence of Shelton, and in turn Kirksey, has been pretty big.
Last week they held the steelers to 17 points, and this week the giants to 20. It's not unreasonably to ask an offense to score 21 points in a game to get the W, but in both games the O gave up a negative score, meaning they effectively contributed 2 and 6 points to the games respectively.
We still lack a pass rush and there are still some missed tackles around but our secondary has improved no end, especially dead-body calhoun, who is now more like zombie calhoun - not quite living and breathing, but actually moving - and we're making plays. Yesterday they forced the giants to punt nine times on 13 possessions.
The Giants had under 300 yards of total offense. The steelers had only 313 total. There's progress, of a sort.
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Whilst on the topic of the D, they've been under-the-radar getting somewhat better as the season's gone on. Haden being back and healthy has helped, and clearly having Collins has been pretty big, while the emergence of Shelton, and in turn Kirksey, has been pretty big.
Last week they held the steelers to 17 points, and this week the giants to 20. It's not unreasonably to ask an offense to score 21 points in a game to get the W, but in both games the O gave up a negative score, meaning they effectively contributed 2 and 6 points to the games respectively.
We still lack a pass rush and there are still some missed tackles around but our secondary has improved no end, especially dead-body calhoun, who is now more like zombie calhoun - not quite living and breathing, but actually moving - and we're making plays. Yesterday they forced the giants to punt nine times on 13 possessions.
The Giants had under 300 yards of total offense. The steelers had only 313 total. There's progress, of a sort.
Whilst on the topic of the D, they've been under-the-radar getting somewhat better as the season's gone on. Haden being back and healthy has helped, and clearly having Collins has been pretty big, while the emergence of Shelton, and in turn Kirksey, has been pretty big.
Last week they held the steelers to 17 points, and this week the giants to 20. It's not unreasonably to ask an offense to score 21 points in a game to get the W, but in both games the O gave up a negative score, meaning they effectively contributed 2 and 6 points to the games respectively.
We still lack a pass rush and there are still some missed tackles around but our secondary has improved no end, especially dead-body calhoun, who is now more like zombie calhoun - not quite living and breathing, but actually moving - and we're making plays. Yesterday they forced the giants to punt nine times on 13 possessions.
The Giants had under 300 yards of total offense. The steelers had only 313 total. There's progress, of a sort.
chris i understand your fanitude and yes i'm a browns freak too, BUT to hang your hat on saying well there's 3-4 guys that actually look good is laughable when other fans of other teams are talking the same way about their entire team. not just 3 guys.
3 guys in a rainstorm will get you 3 wet guys. that's it.
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Whilst on the topic of the D, they've been under-the-radar getting somewhat better as the season's gone on. Haden being back and healthy has helped, and clearly having Collins has been pretty big, while the emergence of Shelton, and in turn Kirksey, has been pretty big.
Last week they held the steelers to 17 points, and this week the giants to 20. It's not unreasonably to ask an offense to score 21 points in a game to get the W, but in both games the O gave up a negative score, meaning they effectively contributed 2 and 6 points to the games respectively.
We still lack a pass rush and there are still some missed tackles around but our secondary has improved no end, especially dead-body calhoun, who is now more like zombie calhoun - not quite living and breathing, but actually moving - and we're making plays. Yesterday they forced the giants to punt nine times on 13 possessions.
The Giants had under 300 yards of total offense. The steelers had only 313 total. There's progress, of a sort.
chris i understand your fanitude and yes i'm a browns freak too, BUT to hang your hat on saying well there's 3-4 guys that actually look good is laughable when other fans of other teams are talking the same way about their entire team. not just 3 guys.
3 guys in a rainstorm will get you 3 wet guys. that's it.
chris i understand your fanitude and yes i'm a browns freak too, BUT to hang your hat on saying well there's 3-4 guys that actually look good is laughable when other fans of other teams are talking the same way about their entire team. not just 3 guys.
3 guys in a rainstorm will get you 3 wet guys. that's it.
After a posted a whole thing about 3-4 vs 4-3 I was very confused by your reply! But I'm not hanging anything on saying any of these guys are good. I'm saying as it stands, Shelton, Kirksey and Collins are playing at or close to pro bowl level. I'm saying Haden, Davis, Ogbah would be getting serious playing time on playoff defences. We're just missing a vast amount of the 'middle of the road' guys - like Joe Thomas said a few months back. Imagine if we'd kept Sheard, TJ Ward and Tashaun Gipson, how good this D would be looking right about now. It's not like they're a million miles away from being at least middle of the pack with a couple of solid starters in the secondary and maybe one top pass rusher.
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chris i understand your fanitude and yes i'm a browns freak too, BUT to hang your hat on saying well there's 3-4 guys that actually look good is laughable when other fans of other teams are talking the same way about their entire team. not just 3 guys.
3 guys in a rainstorm will get you 3 wet guys. that's it.
After a posted a whole thing about 3-4 vs 4-3 I was very confused by your reply! But I'm not hanging anything on saying any of these guys are good. I'm saying as it stands, Shelton, Kirksey and Collins are playing at or close to pro bowl level. I'm saying Haden, Davis, Ogbah would be getting serious playing time on playoff defences. We're just missing a vast amount of the 'middle of the road' guys - like Joe Thomas said a few months back. Imagine if we'd kept Sheard, TJ Ward and Tashaun Gipson, how good this D would be looking right about now. It's not like they're a million miles away from being at least middle of the pack with a couple of solid starters in the secondary and maybe one top pass rusher.
And after the Bye, we'll see the rise of our Zombie 3-4... Book It!
I'm saying as it stands, Shelton, Kirksey and Collins are playing at or close to pro bowl level. I'm saying Haden, Davis, Ogbah would be getting serious playing time on playoff defences.
Haden looks young again... Boody flashed a little more than usual yesterday.... and I'm kinda feeling Reynolds at Safety.
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Gotta disagree with you about Haden..
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Develop? Like over exposed film? Develop as in ' we don't know if they suck yet'?
Man did khalil mack, becham jr., dak and zeke have to develop? How come it's always us browns fans that have to settle for that argument as other teams draft instant HOFers?Develop? Like over exposed film? Develop as in ' we don't know if they suck yet'?
Man did khalil mack, becham jr., dak and zeke have to develop? How come it's always us browns fans that have to settle for that argument as other teams draft instant HOFers?
Honestly.....what I hope to have out of these rookies that have been drafted the last couple of years are some serviceable players that can contribute to a winning team. So, in that regard, yes, they need a bit of time to develop. Now, to have a winning team....we need stars.
We have 2 first round picks next year......THEN is when we need to get our stars. Our Dak and Zeke like players (though I hope one will be on defense). Yes, I have been advocating that one be the QB...which we do need. But give us a couple of stars to hang our hats on.
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Just putting 4 down lineman in the game doesnt make ur defensive identity the "4-3". Putting guys on the end that sometimes stand sometimes sit or even lie down....thats not a 4-3.....thats just 4 down lineman. I want a real god damn mother fucking 4-3 with real defensive ends
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So caught up in what to call it. Majority of the defensive snaps see the browns in a 4-2-5. 3-4...4-3...they don't play much of either.
So your getting upset about nothing, really
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U guys are missing the issue. If we commit to one defense we groom players for a specific role. Take og and nas, both have played 5tech, olb'er and 43 DE. Thats horseshit. If u dont understand that u dont know football. Olb'er/DE hybrid'ing is already sketchy but some systems (like NE) make it work. But then 5 teching them too? Bullshit
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