Draft Talk
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Absolutely. But as much as you hear "this team is terrible, it'll take more than one year to fix it" in January, come March, all the free agents that leave are all stars, the guys coming in are all mercenary busts, by May all the guys we've drafted are busts because they're not Brady or Watt or OBJ, and so come actual football season, people have no patience, so after a (predictably) terrible season, they're clamouring for whichever college QB is the new saviour in their eyes.
Has that happened a ton of times in the past, or are you letting recency bias take hold?
I can't remember any of our players that departed that became stars outside of Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz and TJ Ward...and all of them already were stars when they were here. Gipson is garbage, Gabriel is nothing, Snead is a middling WR on a high-octane passing offense, Benjamin has about the same statline as TP, DQ was a whole bunch of nothing...am I missing anyone?
Luckily, the fans have no say in the matter. So bitch as much as they want, it's all solely on what Haslam decides.
We don't have many stars right now, but that was not the stage of the rebuild we were in last year. We were building a base. This year, we can start to swing for crazy talent, even if it doesn't align with the holes we have. If it makes you feel better, look at the draft this way:
Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+) Here's our Watt
Round 1 Pick 11: Mitch Trubisky, QB, North Carolina (A+) Here's our Rodgers
Round 2 Pick 1: Desmond King, CB, Iowa (A) Here's our Peterson
Round 2 Pick 14: Marcus Williams, FS, Utah (A+) Here's our Reed
Round 3 Pick 1: Royce Freeman, RB, Oregon (A+) Here's our AP
Round 4 Pick 1: Avery Gennesy, OT, Texas A&M (
Here's our other JTRound 5 Pick 30: Pharaoh Brown, TE, Oregon (A-) Here's our Gronk
Round 6 Pick 1: Jake Eldrenkamp, OG, Washington (A) Here's our other Bitonio
See....now they're all stars.
Has that happened a ton of times in the past, or are you letting recency bias take hold?
I can't remember any of our players that departed that became stars outside of Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz and TJ Ward...and all of them already were stars when they were here. Gipson is garbage, Gabriel is nothing, Snead is a middling WR on a high-octane passing offense, Benjamin has about the same statline as TP, DQ was a whole bunch of nothing...am I missing anyone?
take
I'm saying, a lot of people look back at players we let go with rose tinted glasses. Take Taylor Gabriel - barely 400 yards this year, barely anybody was complaining about cutting him at the time, but all of a sudden he has one good game and they're mad we didn't keep him.
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Browns will take the QB, but it won't be reach.
Now renamed the Kiper/Gipper kiss of death...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Got it... I was taking your posts as a defense of an endorsement.
At least i no longer need to fell obligated to watch more tape on him...
BTW... I watched Chad Kelly's game vs. FSU this year. I was in love after his first drive. By the end of the game? Not so much... But there is (or maybe "was") a lot to like in the kid.
Nope, just playing devil's advocate.
I wish there was a Derek Carr in this draft. I think Trubisky COULD be a younger Carr-type player, but he's going to come at an elder Carr price.
Getting Garrett and then Trubisky would be oddly like a Mack/Carr draft. Adding a strong, young FA OL or two would be the icing on the cake.
Nope, just playing devil's advocate.
You do tend to do that... a lot. Yet every once in a while I forget.
But would our owner really go for that? It's one thing to SAY we want continuity, but another thing to actually do it.
We need a QB, that's for sure. But we also can't draft what isn't there. To make matters worse, we can't keep taking QB's in the 3rd round and hope they work out either. Sooner or later, we're going to have to spend a high pick on one. I just hope we don't panic.
I think so... I think Jimmah was sold that this would be more than a 2-year rebuild. That is not to say that he'd tolerate another 0-fer campaign... after all, the man is allegedly human... but the type of three or four win season you describe? Piece of cake...
So, in order to fix that.....give the FO more than a year. Problem solved.
I'm trusting you on this one...
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But isn't that just perpetuating the matter? There are no QBs worth taking super high so we shouldn't force it but the FO doesn't have much time so they should force it and then the fans get pissed when they see another first round QB bust and the pressure grows and the FO gets fired aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand repeat.
The problem, for you, of course, is that you are wrong. Trubisky is in like the top 3-5 of many draft project boards....and if you have a QB that high it is not much of a leap to #1.
Many mocks have him going #1. He has more talent than the guys that went 1-2 last year. Ergo, there is a qb worth taking super high.
Fyi, it doesn't matter what you and I think, it matters what the Browns FO thinks. And any number of articles have been written that they are very high on him.
To ignore that fact is simply playing ostrich.
The problem, for you, of course, is that you are wrong. Trubisky is in like the top 3-5 of many draft project boards....and if you have a QB that high it is not much of a leap to #1.
Many mocks have him going #1. He has more talent than the guys that went 1-2 last year. Ergo, there is a qb worth taking super high.
Fyi, it doesn't matter what you and I think, it matters what the Browns FO thinks. And any number of articles have been written that they are very high on him.
To ignore that fact is simply playing ostrich.
How do you know the mocks and the articles represent what the Browns' FO thinks? Basing it on how they nailed our intentions last year? lol...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Absolutely. But as much as you hear "this team is terrible, it'll take more than one year to fix it" in January, come March, all the free agents that leave are all stars, the guys coming in are all mercenary busts, by May all the guys we've drafted are busts because they're not Brady or Watt or OBJ, and so come actual football season, people have no patience, so after a (predictably) terrible season, they're clamouring for whichever college QB is the new saviour in their eyes.
Has that happened a ton of times in the past, or are you letting recency bias take hold?
I can't remember any of our players that departed that became stars outside of Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz and TJ Ward...and all of them already were stars when they were here. Gipson is garbage, Gabriel is nothing, Snead is a middling WR on a high-octane passing offense, Benjamin has about the same statline as TP, DQ was a whole bunch of nothing...am I missing anyone?
Luckily, the fans have no say in the matter. So bitch as much as they want, it's all solely on what Haslam decides.
We don't have many stars right now, but that was not the stage of the rebuild we were in last year. We were building a base. This year, we can start to swing for crazy talent, even if it doesn't align with the holes we have. If it makes you feel better, look at the draft this way:
Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+) Here's our Watt
Round 1 Pick 11: Mitch Trubisky, QB, North Carolina (A+) Here's our Rodgers
Round 2 Pick 1: Desmond King, CB, Iowa (A) Here's our Peterson
Round 2 Pick 14: Marcus Williams, FS, Utah (A+) Here's our Reed
Round 3 Pick 1: Royce Freeman, RB, Oregon (A+) Here's our AP
Round 4 Pick 1: Avery Gennesy, OT, Texas A&M (
Here's our other JTRound 5 Pick 30: Pharaoh Brown, TE, Oregon (A-) Here's our Gronk
Round 6 Pick 1: Jake Eldrenkamp, OG, Washington (A) Here's our other Bitonio
See....now they're all stars.
Has that happened a ton of times in the past, or are you letting recency bias take hold?
I can't remember any of our players that departed that became stars outside of Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz and TJ Ward...and all of them already were stars when they were here. Gipson is garbage, Gabriel is nothing, Snead is a middling WR on a high-octane passing offense, Benjamin has about the same statline as TP, DQ was a whole bunch of nothing...am I missing anyone?
Luckily, the fans have no say in the matter. So bitch as much as they want, it's all solely on what Haslam decides.
We don't have many stars right now, but that was not the stage of the rebuild we were in last year. We were building a base. This year, we can start to swing for crazy talent, even if it doesn't align with the holes we have. If it makes you feel better, look at the draft this way:
Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+) Here's our Watt
Round 1 Pick 11: Mitch Trubisky, QB, North Carolina (A+) Here's our Rodgers Hello, McFly, is anybody home? Again...there is NO Way he last this long. He will be gone in the top 3 picks.
Round 2 Pick 1: Desmond King, CB, Iowa (A) Here's our Peterson
Round 2 Pick 14: Marcus Williams, FS, Utah (A+) Here's our Reed
Round 3 Pick 1: Royce Freeman, RB, Oregon (A+) Here's our AP
Round 4 Pick 1: Avery Gennesy, OT, Texas A&M (
Here's our other JTRound 5 Pick 30: Pharaoh Brown, TE, Oregon (A-) Here's our Gronk
Round 6 Pick 1: Jake Eldrenkamp, OG, Washington (A) Here's our other Bitonio
See....now they're all stars.
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Browns will take the QB, but it won't be reach.
Now renamed the Kiper/Gipper kiss of death...
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The problem, for you, of course, is that you are wrong. Trubisky is in like the top 3-5 of many draft project boards....and if you have a QB that high it is not much of a leap to #1.
Many mocks have him going #1. He has more talent than the guys that went 1-2 last year. Ergo, there is a qb worth taking super high.
Fyi, it doesn't matter what you and I think, it matters what the Browns FO thinks. And any number of articles have been written that they are very high on him.
To ignore that fact is simply playing ostrich.
How do you know the mocks and the articles represent what the Browns' FO thinks? Basing it on how they nailed our intentions last year? lol...
How do you know the mocks and the articles represent what the Browns' FO thinks? Basing it on how they nailed our intentions last year? lol...
I don't know....neither do you. It is all speculation. I know that I think the Browns think they need a QB.
Or, do you really think that they are going to ensure the future of this team to RG or Kessler. If they do, then, yes, they must be dismissed.
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How do you know the mocks and the articles represent what the Browns' FO thinks? Basing it on how they nailed our intentions last year? lol...
I don't know....neither do you. It is all speculation. I know that I think the Browns think they need a QB.
Or, do you really think that they are going to ensure the future of this team to RG or Kessler. If they do, then, yes, they must be dismissed.
I don't know....neither do you. It is all speculation. I know that I think the Browns think they need a QB.
Or, do you really think that they are going to ensure the future of this team to RG or Kessler. If they do, then, yes, they must be dismissed.
Then why all the certitude in your posts?
And BTW... I've never said what I'd do this year let alone pretended I know what our FO will do.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Mean while back at the draft...
Came across this article on draftwire... it's short so posted it in its entirety.Who is the best pass-rusher in the 2017 NFL draft not named Myles Garrett?
The 2017 NFL draft should be loaded with talented edge defenders who can wreak havoc on opposing quarterbacks.
The group is headlined by Texas A&Ms Myles Garrett, who is widely regarded as the top overall prospect in the entire draft, regardless of position. But after him, there are a handful of disruptive defenders jockeying for position as the next-best option for NFL teams looking for a sack-master.
The SEC not only claims Garrett, but also a trio of top prospects at the position in Alabamas Tim Williams, Tennessees Derek Barnett and Auburns Carl Lawson. UCLAs Takkarist McKinley has been a hot name as of late, while Illinois has an underrated rusher in Dawuane Smoot. Williams isnt the only Crimson Tide rusher worthy of first-round consideration, as Ryan Anderson will be in the conversation, as well.
So, who takes the No. 2 spot on the edge after Garrett?
Good question... the right answer could allow a QB/edge or Allen/Edge or trade-down option to be palatable.
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Myles Garrett please.
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Honestly Garrett has the talent to be "generational" (lol), but with all those options at the same position I just think it spells doom for a Browns/Garrett marriage.
Tim Williams is the best pass rusher (from a production standpoint, he is better than Garrett), but for two years now Alabama has refused to play him on basically anything but obvious passing downs. While you would like to assume he plays the run well just by virtue of the priority placed on it by the coaches he plays for, I doubt there is a ton of tape on that. You always have to question how good he will be taking, say, double the snaps in a game than he is used to. Also different from Garrett in that while Garrett is not an ideal fit for 3-4 DE, you can strip the threads, grab the hammer, and find a way. Williams, on the other hand, is OLB in a 3-4 all the way.
Barnett is a stud all around. Saw him absolutely smoke Cam Robinson (Alabama projected 1st round OT pick--3 year starter) on a speed rush a couple times in their game. Much more disciplined against the run than anyone we're talking about here (although I'll reiterate Williams sample size there is very small).
Lawson is a lesser Barnett.
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Nice takes...
My only Garrett issue remains scheme fit. We know we want to be a 3-4 and I worry about standing Garrett up. And I fear the pounding he'd take as an undersized 3-4 DE would take its toll.
Truthfully I hadn't thought much about Williams even tho I've been consistently impressed by him in a few BAMA games this season.
Allen - Shelton - Bryant
Williams - Kirksey - Davis - Collins
I think I could like that a lot...
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"McShay: I'll say this: It's not a great year to be drafting early and needing a quarterback."
"5. If you had to put your money behind one guy from this class to be the NFL's next great pass-rusher, who would it be?
Kiper: There's no question it's Texas A&M's Myles Garrett, who is No. 1 on my Big Board. He has everything teams want in a premier edge rusher. At 6-foot-5, 265 pounds, he's going to be a star. Others to keep an eye on: Alabama's Tim Williams and UCLA's Takkarist McKinley. All could go in the top 10.
6. What should the Browns do with the first pick: best player or best QB?
Kiper: The Browns have too many needs. It has to be the best player, and as I mentioned above, there's no surefire top quarterback in this class. Cleveland needs everything. No way should the Browns reach for a quarterback in this draft."
I don't always agree with Kiper, but in this instance he is right. If we reach for another name for the cross-out T-shirt, then we have a ship of fools running and ruining this program.
I'll say this: It's not a great year to be drafting early and needing a quarterback."
Kiper: there's no surefire top quarterback in this class. Cleveland needs everything. No way should the Browns reach for a quarterback in this draft."Lady and Gentlemen... I give you the "Kiper Kiss of Death"...
Ha watch there be three great quarterbacks come out of this class. In the famous words of Mel- that I'll never forget "mmmmmuuuuusssssttt draft Hart Lee Dykes." A monumental first round bust.
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Nice takes...
My only Garrett issue remains scheme fit. We know we want to be a 3-4 and I worry about standing Garrett up. And I fear the pounding he'd take as an undersized 3-4 DE would take its toll.
Truthfully I hadn't thought much about Williams even tho I've been consistently impressed by him in a few BAMA games this season.
Allen - Shelton - Bryant
Williams - Kirksey - Davis - Collins
I think I could like that a lot...
Nice takes...
My only Garrett issue remains scheme fit. We know we want to be a 3-4 and I worry about standing Garrett up. And I fear the pounding he'd take as an undersized 3-4 DE would take its toll.
Truthfully I hadn't thought much about Williams even tho I've been consistently impressed by him in a few BAMA games this season.
Allen - Shelton - Bryant
Williams - Kirksey - Davis - Collins
I think I could like that a lot...
I think that's the value move here. Let's see how Williams' coverage and run D skills are when good tape comes out.
And just want to say before someone looks in depth and it turns out I am wrong on any of this, these takes come from buzzed fall Saturday's on my couch flipping through CFB games, reading PFF's upgraded college section the last two years, and (re)watching alot of A&M games where I usually focus on the OL.
I believe Williams generated double digit sacks on just a hair over 100 snaps last year. Something ridiculous like that.
Report of last year:
11 sacks, 8 hits, 33 hurries. 52 total pressures on 148 pass rush snaps last year. That's a pressure every 2.7 pass rush attempts. Bosa last year? 4.9. As of 3 weeks ago, Williams had played 127 run plays over the last three seasons.
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I also worry about Garrett retiring in 4 years to become an author or something. Fortunately, the really big hits don't happen on the line usually so he won't be encouraged by concussion issues.
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I also worry about Garrett retiring in 4 years to become an author or something. Fortunately, the really big hits don't happen on the line usually so he won't be encouraged by concussion issues.
I also worry about Garrett retiring in 4 years to become an author or something. Fortunately, the really big hits don't happen on the line usually so he won't be encouraged by concussion issues.
Maybe not retiring, but you could see him wanting to go to san fransisco or NY or somewhere like that.
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I could also definitely get behind the 'bama first round of Allen and Williams.
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Here is the key question for the Browns when considering the Garrett pick: Will they form the defense around the talent or will they try to form the talent around the defense? He is a very versatile player in that often times this season they would send him to various other positions along the LOS and occasionally even do a stand up and drop back into coverage. I think he has the talent to make another true Von Miller out of him as a OLB in the 3-4 if they decide to stick with that D. He has the speed, moves and "bendability" around OT's to pull that off after a learning curve which I think can be relatively short. I think of him as a Miller-Ware combo guy if he comes off the R side of the D.
As to Tim Williams I could see him as our 2nd 1st rounder if we go with the QB at #1. I think he is the second best pass rusher in this draft, and not too much a drop off from Garrett other than size.
As to Allen I could see us going with him at #1 and Williams #2 if we are intent on a 3-4 90% of the time and realize there is not a QB worth it at #1. It's worked quite well for Bama. I could live with that.
Edit: chris you took the words right out of my fingers while typing.
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Yeah of course, if they decide a QB is worth it then he's worth it at #1 and that's that. Then a Tim Williams makes a whole lot of sense. If not, getting Allen and Williams would give us a potentially nasty front seven if we keep collins, the weak point of which would be Demario Davis, who isn't exactly a slouch.
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Or what about a Garrett-Williams 1 2 punch? Wow then who do you double team? It would be like Ware-Miller at Denver.
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