Nativity scene found in ancient egyptian rock painting..
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Here is where Christians, me being one myself, so I feel I have a right to comment, is that Christians focus way to much on proving the "Bible". Christians have elevated a collection of writings to that of Christ himself and that belief in the "Bible" is also necessary for one to be a Christian.
But ask this question. Where, in the Bible, does it say that one must believe in the Bible the way that so many Christians do today. The Bible is also silent on its own inerrancy and infallibility. How can we fully trust a compilation of letters put together by the Roman Catholic Church that also murdered those that wrote or said anything contrary to what they felt should be in the cannon.
Also, Martin Luther argued that some of the books, should be left out and not included, specifically, Hebrews, James, 1,2 & 3rd John and Revelation (I might have missed a couple). The actual cannon was still hotly debated.Jesus Christ said himself that no one comes to the father, but through him. But today, Christians also hold that one must also believe in "The Bible" as if it were also another part of the Trinity (Also, another Catholic Tradition not once spoke of by Christ or needed for Christianity to exist but is some how now part of Orthodoxy and can't be debated).
Ask yourself another question, if the Bible, is so important, what did the first century Christians do? Most only had access to some letters and many were probably illiterate and couldn't read or write.
My point is that many Christians suffer from and espouse Bibliolatry. Christians make the Bible say and mean things that it was never meant to say or do, nor EVER spoken of by Christ. If Christians would focus their energy on the actual hope of the Gospel and the life of Christ, and put away petty arguments, how much more could be done?Here is where Christians, me being one myself, so I feel I have a right to comment, is that Christians focus way to much on proving the "Bible". Christians have elevated a collection of writings to that of Christ himself and that belief in the "Bible" is also necessary for one to be a Christian.
But ask this question. Where, in the Bible, does it say that one must believe in the Bible the way that so many Christians do today. The Bible is also silent on its own inerrancy and infallibility. How can we fully trust a compilation of letters put together by the Roman Catholic Church that also murdered those that wrote or said anything contrary to what they felt should be in the cannon.
Also, Martin Luther argued that some of the books, should be left out and not included, specifically, Hebrews, James, 1,2 & 3rd John and Revelation (I might have missed a couple). The actual cannon was still hotly debated.
Jesus Christ said himself that no one comes to the father, but through him. But today, Christians also hold that one must also believe in "The Bible" as if it were also another part of the Trinity (Also, another Catholic Tradition not once spoke of by Christ or needed for Christianity to exist but is some how now part of Orthodoxy and can't be debated).
Ask yourself another question, if the Bible, is so important, what did the first century Christians do? Most only had access to some letters and many were probably illiterate and couldn't read or write.
My point is that many Christians suffer from and espouse Bibliolatry. Christians make the Bible say and mean things that it was never meant to say or do, nor EVER spoken of by Christ. If Christians would focus their energy on the actual hope of the Gospel and the life of Christ, and put away petty arguments, how much more could be done?
I can see what you are saying although the importance of the word cannot be underestimated. Christians out doing good works and helping with the poor is also needed. Actually the good works prove one's faith and that one's faith is real. It is just important to realize we are saved by faith and not works. Our works only prove we have faith. In the bible the apostle Paul stresses faith alone but the apostle James seems to contradict that by focusing on works. They actually blend together and are not opposed to each other.
Faith Without Works Is Dead James 2:14-17
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Ephesians 2:8 the apostle Paul
Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 1
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The importance of the word:
Jesus is called the word (John 1:1). The grass withers the flowers fade but the word of God endures forever (Isa. 40:8). When Jesus was tempted by satan he used the word of God against him. Jesus said man does not live by bread alone but by every word from God. The bible is that word. Before we had the written word the early Christians had the spoken word but it was still the word of God. And they went forth and preached everywhere (preached what? the word of God) and signs followed the preaching of the word of God. We are saved by faith. faith in what? The word of God. God says it and we believe it. God says in His word how to be saved and without the word nobody would know the way of salvation.
In Romans the Apostle Paul lays out God's plan for salvation and note the importance of the word:
Romans 10:8-17:
But what does it say?“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,Who bring glad tidings of good things!”16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The importance of the word:
Jesus is called the word (John 1:1). The grass withers the flowers fade but the word of God endures forever (Isa. 40:8). When Jesus was tempted by satan he used the word of God against him. Jesus said man does not live by bread alone but by every word from God. The bible is that word. Before we had the written word the early Christians had the spoken word but it was still the word of God. And they went forth and preached everywhere (preached what? the word of God) and signs followed the preaching of the word of God. We are saved by faith. faith in what? The word of God. God says it and we believe it. God says in His word how to be saved and without the word nobody would know the way of salvation.
In Romans the Apostle Paul lays out God's plan for salvation and note the importance of the word:
Romans 10:8-17:
But what does it say?“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,Who bring glad tidings of good things!”16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says,“Lord, who has believed our report?” 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I appreciate the response. But one has to assume that the Paul and all other NT writers were thinking about and knew about the Bible, as we understand it today. We can't confuse every reference to the word "word" as a reference to modern day Christian use of the word "word" and how we equally apply to the Bible. One should also understand that any reference to "Scripture" in the NT is talking about the Pentateuch and the Torah, the OT.
Here is another question. If the same spirit resides in us that also resided in Paul and the Apostles, and this same spirit guided them and inspired them to write the NT, why can't we do that today, and why can't some works be considered on the same level as the Bible?
My point is that many Christians take a very modern, westernized, version of the Christianity and take all that this "version" offers without ever going back into history to explore and understand. Many if not millions of Christians lived and died without access to the modern version of the Bible. How did they manage to be such good Christians without the Bible? They had nothing to read, nothing to memorize, nothing to do their daily devotions. And don't forget the middle ages where the Roman Catholic church basically locked down the Bible and only allowed the priests access to it for reading and interpretation. And let's not add to the many things that modernized Christianity took from the RCC, specifically this overly vaulted view of what is considered the Bible.
Yet, today, we speak of the Bible as this absolute necessity to being Christian. How dare we forget those Christians that held on to faith while being martyred without ever having seen, held, or read a Bible.
Now, before you label me a heretic, I still regard and consider the Bible as a valuable tool and reference for Christians. It is what we have and I believe it to be precious. But, we should never make it more than it was ever meant to be. It is a collection of letters assembled, centuries after the life of Christ. We call it the Bible. It is however not a book that in and of itself brings, healing, prosperity, and a whole host of other fiction attributes. The Bible never says of itself that we have to read it, nor does it say that we have to memorize it. Nor, is it ever spoken of by Christ. All I ask is that we take a healthy approach on scripture, let it be what it actually is and stop with making it something that has be believed in with no doubt to be a Christian. We are saved by faith in Christ. We are not saved in faith in the accuracy and infallibility of the Bible.
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The best way to go into error is straying from biblical teaching. There are many who want to speak for God but if the revelation they get does not line up with the bible I would reject it out of hand. I believe in miracles and I believe God has preserved His word as He promised and the bible is truly the word of God. There are two schools of thought on this. One school says the bible contains the word of God and the other the bible is the word of God. Those in the first school believe there is a percentage of the bible that is inspired scripture maybe 25 percent. The problem they have is how do they know what is truly inspired scripture? They don't. The best way to be sure is to believe all of the bible is inspired scripture which I do.
The middle ages where the word was locked up in monasteries in a language most people didn't understand also produced the dark ages. With the invention of the printing press and mass production of bibles it created a huge boost in the light coming to the masses. Now the fight is not getting the bible out to the people but getting people to believe the bible. If you believe the bible is the word of God then you believe the word is like God Himself just as I am like the words I speak. Someone may never know me in person but by reading my words they can get a picture of me. I have never met Jesus but I know Him by His words.
The bible in many places speaks of the importance of the word. King David even said God has magnified His word above His name. I have been in this "way" for many years and the word in your heart and in your mouth produces results. I have experienced it many times myself. Just memorizing scripture won't do it but getting that word into your spirit and speaking it out is a biblical principal seen all through the bible from God speaking the universe into existence to Jesus and the disciples. The Apostle Paul said: "We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak". What did Paul blieve? The word.
I believe God still speaks to His people but it has to line up with His word. That is our measuring stick.
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What if I wrote a book for my religion that said the browns went 0-14 in 2016 because they didn't believe in my god, then they all started praying to me, so their opponent missed a FG and they won a game. When historians dig in to the ESPN archives to see the 1-14 record, and the missed FG, does that prove my religion true?
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What if I wrote a book for my religion that said the browns went 0-14 in 2016 because they didn't believe in my god, then they all started praying to me, so their opponent missed a FG and they won a game. When historians dig in to the ESPN archives to see the 1-14 record, and the missed FG, does that prove my religion true?
What if I wrote a book for my religion that said the browns went 0-14 in 2016 because they didn't believe in my god, then they all started praying to me, so their opponent missed a FG and they won a game. When historians dig in to the ESPN archives to see the 1-14 record, and the missed FG, does that prove my religion true?
No but it wouldn't prove it false either. It would only prove shallowness of your religion. (and I was happy to see that missed fg). So the bigger question you are hinting at does answer to prayer prove one's faith? For example someone is sick and you pray for them to be healed and they are healed. Was that a true answer to prayer or would they have just naturally gotten well on their own? Or on the silly side you pray for your team to win (no Christian should ever do it) and they score 4 td's in the fourth quarter and they pull off a "miraculous" upset. Some things we don't know but I will be thankful for any answered prayer regardless.
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So what exactly is the archeology proving here? That the things that already happened that the Bible wrote about actually happened?
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So what exactly is the archeology proving here? That the things that already happened that the Bible wrote about actually happened?
So what exactly is the archeology proving here? That the things that already happened that the Bible wrote about actually happened?
In the example I used the bible tells the story of the battle of Jericho where the walls came down and Israel entered the city. The bible also states that a prostitute named Rahab and her family would be spared (for helping Israel) if they stayed in their house which was attached to the wall. The bible also states Israel burned everything in the city and was forbidden not to take any of the foodstuff.
Archeology shows the bricks that came down from the city walls. It shows one wall that did not come down corresponding to what the bible says that Rahab and her family would be spared whose house was attached to the wall, it shows evidence of everything being burned and jars filled with grains showing that Israel did not take any of the food in the city....the details of the battle of Jericho in the bible lining up with the archeology.
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Right... But the book depicting the battle was written after the battle, correct?
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
It's a pretty big stretch to see the nativity in this cave drawing
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Right... But the book depicting the battle was written after the battle, correct?
And after the battle the story was written and shown by archeology to be accurate in the details laid out in the bible. The bible also is full of prophecies written before their fulfillment that later were fulfilled as they were predicted to happen.
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Right... But the book depicting the battle was written after the battle, correct?
And after the battle the story was written and shown by archeology to be accurate in the details laid out in the bible. The bible also is full of prophecies written before their fulfillment that later were fulfilled as they were predicted to happen.
And after the battle the story was written and shown by archeology to be accurate in the details laid out in the bible. The bible also is full of prophecies written before their fulfillment that later were fulfilled as they were predicted to happen.
One thing at a time.
The Bible wrote about something that already happened. No shit it's accurate. Why does it get "God's word" points for writing about something that already happened? Books literally do that all of the time...
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And after the battle the story was written and shown by archeology to be accurate in the details laid out in the bible. The bible also is full of prophecies written before their fulfillment that later were fulfilled as they were predicted to happen.
One thing at a time.
The Bible wrote about something that already happened. No shit it's accurate. Why does it get "God's word" points for writing about something that already happened? Books literally do that all of the time...
One thing at a time.
The Bible wrote about something that already happened. No shit it's accurate. Why does it get "God's word" points for writing about something that already happened? Books literally do that all of the time...
Lots of skeptics that believe the stories are made up and fiction. Archeology can only show the bricks down from the walls of Jericho but not the Israelite's marching around the city and shouting and the walls coming down. But if all the other details are true then the walls miraculously coming down should also be true as well. They are writing this as it actually happened.
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OK, hold up. A lot of points to hit here...
1) Skeptics believe that the ridiculous stories are fiction. A man living inside of a big fish, the entire earth flooding, the first woman being made from a man's rib, etc. THOSE are what realists (or, Skeptics to you) have a problem with. Not a story about a historical event.
2) You're making a GIANT logical leap there. Because the Bible was accurate in its depiction about a historic event, you're assuming it's miraculous claims are also correct. See the flawed logic there? Again, if I wrote about the 2016 browns season in perfect detail, would it mean I'm then correct in saying it happened because RG3 prayed to an evil god?
3) How do you know this was written as it happened? The Bible has been edited and translated countless times. A ton of things could have been added after the fact to add to its influencing power.
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There was a miracle recorded in the battle too. The walls that came down after Israel following instructions. Archeology verified the reported miracle that happened here too. Unless a "realist" wants to believe that Israel pulled the walls down and then concocted a fable on how it happened.
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You seemed to ignore my previous points, but we'll keep going...
You're taking the Bible at face value. A book that had been modified countless times by countless people. We know the walls fell. You're just assuming the Bible is correct in why they fell because it was "correct" in what we already knew at the time. (I'm also afraid we're about to step into a circular logic moment).
Please show me where archeology verified the biblical miracle.
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You seemed to ignore my previous points, but we'll keep going...
You're taking the Bible at face value. A book that had been modified countless times by countless people. We know the walls fell. You're just assuming the Bible is correct in why they fell because it was "correct" in what we already knew at the time. (I'm also afraid we're about to step into a circular logic moment).
Please show me where archeology verified the biblical miracle.
You seemed to ignore my previous points, but we'll keep going...
You're taking the Bible at face value. A book that had been modified countless times by countless people. We know the walls fell. You're just assuming the Bible is correct in why they fell because it was "correct" in what we already knew at the time. (I'm also afraid we're about to step into a circular logic moment).
Please show me where archeology verified the biblical miracle.
I'm taking the bible at face value and the archeology lines up with the bible version of events. That's as good as it gets. There is no video of the battle. We only have what is recorded in the bible and thousands of years later archeology finds that line up with the bible version of the battle. The walls not only fell but the details the bible lays out that one household would be spared and the bible states that house was connected to the wall. Not only were the walls found down there was one wall with houses attached that was still standing. These details found thousands of years later are good evidence of the accuracy of the bible version of the battle.
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Again, the Bible is describing events that were already history at the time. Of course it was right. That's what you're not getting here. You're saying because the Bible was right about things the writers already new about, it must be right about the "miracles" it described. "Miracles" that your only evidence for is the Bible.
Again... Circular logic.
I'm trying to have a logical debate with you and you're making points that would never hold up, and don't.
I just don't understand how you can't see the gap in logic here. Where critical thinking just blows the whole thing wide open. Idk if it is because you lack that thinking, or if your allegiance to religion just turns it off when talking about stuff like this. I'm not sure.
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Again, the Bible is describing events that were already history at the time. Of course it was right. That's what you're not getting here. You're saying because the Bible was right about things the writers already new about, it must be right about the "miracles" it described. "Miracles" that your only evidence for is the Bible.
Again... Circular logic.
I'm trying to have a logical debate with you and you're making points that would never hold up, and don't.
I just don't understand how you can't see the gap in logic here. Where critical thinking just blows the whole thing wide open. Idk if it is because you lack that thinking, or if your allegiance to religion just turns it off when talking about stuff like this. I'm not sure.
Ive been having this exact debate with myself since i was 12, which is also the age i finally had enough and started refusing to attend church anymore. I started asking uncomfortable questions around 6-7 years old so by 12 i was done with it.Idk if it is because you lack that thinking, or if your allegiance to religion just turns it off when talking about stuff like this. I'm not sure.
I think think its blind allegiance. Look at the discrepancy in how they talk about muslims past and present and then the utter refusal to acknowledge their own dirty and not so ancient history.
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Somethings just been "turned off"....i dunno what thats beyond my pay scale
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Somethings just been "turned off"....i dunno what thats beyond my pay scale
Somethings just been "turned off"....i dunno what thats beyond my pay scale
LOL...No my friend something was turned on. The light. It's not beyond your pay scale either. Seek and you shall find. God will make Himself known only to those who seek Him. His thoughts and ways are not like ours and human reasoning will never find Him. God is Spirit and the bible is a revelation from God to humans. Humans are spirit, soul and body and it is our spirit's that recognize the truth God is speaking in the bible. Our souls are our mental beings and our bodies our physical. Atheists are those whose souls or the mental part of their being rule them. They try to reason things out and they miss it. These are spiritual realities and the "light" has to be turned on to see them.
1 Corinthians 2:14New International Version (NIV)14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
*Nothing has changed since the 1900 years or so since the Apostle Paul said this.
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