The key concept behind the 4-3 vs 3-4 debate that williams didnt teally get into...
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Ive always said a proper 3-4 can be just as effective as a 4-3. Ive railed for the 4-3 only cause this is cleveland and we never seemed to find those proper olb'ers that could still contribute to run defense. Than we started drafting/signing 4-3 guys and it's just been a mess.
Anyway, the issue for me that i feel isnt being adressed isnt the "scheme", its ur rotation depth. If williams wants to cone in here and run some complicated multi front defense, we're not going to have proper depth for either scheme. Guys get dinged up during the season, i want their replacements to be more or less the same type of players. Consider this past year if both ogbah and nassib were out than we'd have no choice but to use the 3-4 guys who sucked a fat cawk. I mean even collins didn't really wow me but ill give him a pass this year cause he got shipped from the best to the worst team in the league.
So next year if we draft garett or allen to me doesnt change much, line up in the base 4-3 80% of the season and things should look ok. Just keep it consistent and simple and then in a few years maybe start expanding some of these guys roles as they get accustomed to the game and stronger/faster. I just dont want to see cam johnson next year, or any of the other 3-4 goofs we put out there that promptly got slapped around by tackles in the run game.
I understand if we draft garett he has some intriguing upsides as a possible hybrid type. Ok fine, but next year...if we draft him...keep his hsnds down and let him work on getting stronger and faster without wirrying about cover duties
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OK...
And the "key concept" was?
Keeping consistent base personnel.......i thought that was clear, my fault evidently. Williams contention was it doesnt matter but imo, for such noobish defense that for now it absolutely does. If u "truly" have a group of players that can play anything...than sure, fuck it. But do tou think we have that?
Imo the personell we had last year on the front 7 that were more or less strict 3-4 guys........were fucking awful. They stink and i want em gone. Even collins is on a short leash with me but he'll play 4-3 olb'er prob just fine.
Im jus sayin, when guys get hurt or cone outof a gsme for a beeather....i dont want to see the base defense change just because. Thats the problem with hybrid defenses. You got some guys hurt and u might be stuck playing a defense that in certain week might not be the right call for a given opponent. Just build a damn good 4-3 around damned good 4-3 players. Than later see what u csn get out if certain sub packages.
Is that clearer?
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OK...
And the "key concept" was?
Keeping consistent base personnel.......i thought that was clear, my fault evidently. Williams contention was it doesnt matter but imo, for such noobish defense that for now it absolutely does. If u "truly" have a group of players that can play anything...than sure, fuck it. But do tou think we have that?
Imo the personell we had last year on the front 7 that were more or less strict 3-4 guys........were fucking awful. They stink and i want em gone. Even collins is on a short leash with me but he'll play 4-3 olb'er prob just fine.
Im jus sayin, when guys get hurt or cone outof a gsme for a beeather....i dont want to see the base defense change just because. Thats the problem with hybrid defenses. You got some guys hurt and u might be stuck playing a defense that in certain week might not be the right call for a given opponent. Just build a damn good 4-3 around damned good 4-3 players. Than later see what u csn get out if certain sub packages.
Is that clearer?
Keeping consistent base personnel.......i thought that was clear, my fault evidently. Williams contention was it doesnt matter but imo, for such noobish defense that for now it absolutely does. If u "truly" have a group of players that can play anything...than sure, fuck it. But do tou think we have that?
Im jus sayin, when guys get hurt or cone outof a gsme for a beeather....i dont want to see the base defense change just because.
Is that clearer?
Yup... thanks... it may have been clear to others, but I got lost in the OP.
Lucky for you you have months to grow accustomed to your impending disappointment. Seemed to me Williams made it clear in his presser that when personnel changes, his schemes and calls within those schemes change. Now he also stated his expectation was for players to be in shape, so "breathers" should not be a significant factor leaving injury as the primary determinant.
Until we see the final 53 it's fruitless to debate what we will roll with by choice let alone what we will roll to as players drop. But in the theoretical it makes less sense IMO to arbitrarily stay with a diminished base scheme than it does to adapt to the personnel available.
And that leads me to your opening comment.
I did not hear him say the scheme does not matter in the sense I think you are using it, which I read as "one choice is the equal of the other". What I heard was it does not matter to him which scheme we run as long as it is "the best fit for best 11"... his starters.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'm pretty sure Williams know what hes doing.
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I'm pretty sure Williams know what hes doing.
I'm pretty sure Williams know what hes doing.
Only DC to ever get Oilers/Titans and Saints franchises to the Super Bowl.
I think he does.
I think he'll have some say in the draft room. They sure got to work on Collins quickly once he was in the building.
You don't move your hot shot holistic medicine doctor wife and six of your nine kids to Cleveland to fetch anybody's coffee with his resume.
3-4 base, 4-3 base? ... Cleveland-based.
He has 42 packages, I think he can fit the packages to the talent.
Zombo
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Stop salivating Z! I don't want those new defensive draft picks slipping on the way to the podium!
Damn it's gonna be fun on Sundays watching those QB's run for their lives and giving away games!
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I think that "cleveland based" talk is just gor draft obfuscation in case they wanna trade down.
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I'm pretty sure Williams know what hes doing.
Only DC to ever get Oilers/Titans and Saints franchises to the Super Bowl.
I think he does.
I think he'll have some say in the draft room. They sure got to work on Collins quickly once he was in the building.
You don't move your hot shot holistic medicine doctor wife and six of your nine kids to Cleveland to fetch anybody's coffee with his resume.
3-4 base, 4-3 base? ... Cleveland-based.
He has 42 packages, I think he can fit the packages to the talent.
Zombo
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Keeping consistent base personnel.......i thought that was clear, my fault evidently. Williams contention was it doesnt matter but imo, for such noobish defense that for now it absolutely does. If u "truly" have a group of players that can play anything...than sure, fuck it. But do tou think we have that?
Im jus sayin, when guys get hurt or cone outof a gsme for a beeather....i dont want to see the base defense change just because.
Is that clearer?
Yup... thanks... it may have been clear to others, but I got lost in the OP.
Lucky for you you have months to grow accustomed to your impending disappointment. Seemed to me Williams made it clear in his presser that when personnel changes, his schemes and calls within those schemes change. Now he also stated his expectation was for players to be in shape, so "breathers" should not be a significant factor leaving injury as the primary determinant.
Until we see the final 53 it's fruitless to debate what we will roll with by choice let alone what we will roll to as players drop. But in the theoretical it makes less sense IMO to arbitrarily stay with a diminished base scheme than it does to adapt to the personnel available.
And that leads me to your opening comment.
I did not hear him say the scheme does not matter in the sense I think you are using it, which I read as "one choice is the equal of the other". What I heard was it does not matter to him which scheme we run as long as it is "the best fit for best 11"... his starters.
Yup... thanks... it may have been clear to others, but I got lost in the OP.
Lucky for you you have months to grow accustomed to your impending disappointment. Seemed to me Williams made it clear in his presser that when personnel changes, his schemes and calls within those schemes change. Now he also stated his expectation was for players to be in shape, so "breathers" should not be a significant factor leaving injury as the primary determinant.
Until we see the final 53 it's fruitless to debate what we will roll with by choice let alone what we will roll to as players drop. But in the theoretical it makes less sense IMO to arbitrarily stay with a diminished base scheme than it does to adapt to the personnel available.
And that leads me to your opening comment.
I did not hear him say the scheme does not matter in the sense I think you are using it, which I read as "one choice is the equal of the other". What I heard was it does not matter to him which scheme we run as long as it is "the best fit for best 11"... his starters.
It sounds like you watched/listened to the same presser I did.
Also, Williams was careful not to promise we'd jump up into elite defensive rankings in his first year like he said he had done in other places when asked toward the end of the presser. That was a politically correct way of saying it depends on how much the front office changes playing gridiron chess with pawns around here in a very promising draft to do so.
The thing I like most about his extensive background is he's not married to just 1 alignment, scheme or comfort zone as you've already alluded to. He's polygamous. I'm guessing this leads to a lot less square pegging round holes out there.
Again, our front office has a golden opportunity to add some serious attack pieces that will be on our door step early and often in this draft that doesn't look to have the same early BPA with the QB position. I'm hoping like hell here that the days of playing gridiron chess with pawns is behind us. While I agree this is very important, it doesn't change the reality that Horton deserved to be fired in Cleveland before we won 7 games in 2014. Putting the heavy feet of Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin at 5 techniques with responsibilities extending as far as the sideline seemed like a recipe for girthy dudes needing O2 masks while we rarely stopped teams from turning the corner on us. Against the pass, the unsound coverage zones looking like ghost towns got old early and often with me. Maybe this is just a coincidence only; but in 2015 - Horton was the DC of a TN Titans team that finished with the worst record in the NFL. 1 year later, TN improved by 7 wins up to a 9-7 record while the Cleveland team that just rehired Horton finished with only 1 win. Again, a lot of that is also coincidence due to growing pains of a young QB in tandem with offensive lines in need of upgrades necessary for better time of possession results. In the world of too little - too late, I finally saw some degree of consistent zone blitz pressure against vrs San Diego at the expense of Antonio Gates remaining uncovered seemingly all game long (hard to trust that type of thinking/logic generating very much success moving forward).
In a year we haven't had very much to cheer about - I thoroughly enjoyed watching Gregg Williams show Tony Grossi that he can take his same old 2nd grade shit starting antics elsewhere so the adults in the room could converse. Even better, he golden ruled everyone that showed up with better agendas such as beginning responses with "Great question..." I was glad most of the media showed up to talk football because that facilitated and perpetuated a very informative discussion.
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I like this hire a lot... I have never been impressed with any of our DC's except Foge Fazio and Dick Jauron. Although Jaurons defense was not "Attacking" by any means.. He played a sound , solid team defense. But Williams brings the kind of snarl and attitude I want our D to have. Defenses are becoming more interchangable these days.. And Willians totally gets that.. I'm all aboard the GW train...
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I like this hire a lot... I have never been impressed with any of our DC's except Foge Fazio and Dick Jauron. Although Jaurons defense was not "Attacking" by any means.. He played a sound , solid team defense. But Williams brings the kind of snarl and attitude I want our D to have. Defenses are becoming more interchangable these days.. And Willians totally gets that.. I'm all aboard the GW train...
. Although Jaurons defense was not "Attacking" by any means...
Im not sure i wholly agree with that. He used to blitz tj alot even against the run. Dq too. Not sure how complicated his def was but i agree it was solid but spectacular, cause he wasnt there long. He should still be our DC imo because the last time i felt our def was building on shit was when he was running it. It was a good pass rushing defense but struggled against the run, another two years of signing/drafting the right players could have fixed that.
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Two 340lb interior dline?
Really? Does that seem like a good idea to the lot of you?
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. Although Jaurons defense was not "Attacking" by any means...
Im not sure i wholly agree with that. He used to blitz tj alot even against the run. Dq too. Not sure how complicated his def was but i agree it was solid but spectacular, cause he wasnt there long. He should still be our DC imo because the last time i felt our def was building on shit was when he was running it. It was a good pass rushing defense but struggled against the run, another two years of signing/drafting the right players could have fixed that.
Im not sure i wholly agree with that. He used to blitz tj alot even against the run. Dq too. Not sure how complicated his def was but i agree it was solid but spectacular, cause he wasnt there long. He should still be our DC imo because the last time i felt our def was building on shit was when he was running it. It was a good pass rushing defense but struggled against the run, another two years of signing/drafting the right players could have fixed that.
I agree.. I really was liking what he was starting to instill.. And then you factor in.. He was/is one of the last remaing pupils of Paul Brown.
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1) Doesn't matter what base is, if he wants to pull a DT for an extra coverage DB on 3rd and 15 that could be sensible and practical given situations -- say if Meder had to start due to another injury to AB. Good to stick in a formation --- BUT you also want your best 11 available athletes playing regardless of where they slot.
2) Gus Bradley would have been a good DC hire as well, he was the one who turned around Seattle's D under Carroll.
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