Browns LB won money off Mangini at Minicamp
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Those pass defense numbers are skewed because teams passed against us 128 fewer times than they did against the Jets.
If you look at yards per passing attempt, the Jets ranked 18th and we ranked 26th.
Darelle Revis and Kerry Rhodes are better than anyone we've got, plus they had a much better pass rush (41 vs. 17 sacks). And unless Veikune emerges or Wimbley & Hall drastically improve, that's the one part of our defense where we might not significantly improve. Hopefully, it'll happen, but I wouldn't guarantee that we'll be better than the Jets.
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And if you look at the components of QBr, you'll see that the Browns rank higher because of a better TD/INT ratio. The completion percentages are about the same, with the Browns giving us less yards but - as I already mentioned - giving up more per passing attempt.
The Browns gave us four less touchdowns, which could be a function of teams running all over us. After all, we gave up six more running touchdowns than the Jets did. As Mangini mentioned in last Saturday's presser, the Jets' run defense was so good that teams didn't run a lot on them: that's why Kenyon Coleman went from leading all d-linemen in tackles in '07 to having rather average stats in '08.
As for the picks: yes, we had a fairly opportunistic secondary last year, though I don't know if that means we had a good one. After all, we're expecting/hoping that Abe Elam will be an improvement over Sean Jones, but Jones had higher pick totals both last year and all previous years.
And I don't doubt that the Jets had problems in their secondary last year. Because Darrelle Revis is converging on shutdown corner status (something we don't have), teams threw a lot at the Jets' #2 cornerback. Mangini wasn't happy with rookie Dwight Lowery's play, which resulted in him bringing in Ty Law. Rex Ryan traded for Lito Sheppard because he wanted to solidify that second CB spot and he signed Jim Leonhard because he wasn't content with how the safety next to Kerry Rhodes was playing (which was Abe Elam for part of the year).
That said, I think it's a mistake to completely separate run & pass defense, saying we'll have the Jets' run D and our pass D. If the Jets' run defense was as bad as ours was, its secondary wouldn't have been exposed nearly as much. And if they were playing in more blowout losses, they may have had more opportunities to get their hands on those lazy mistakes some QB's were chucking at us last year.
I think our run defense will be significantly better next year, and - because of better CB depth and a little better pass rush - our pass defense should be somewhat better. But I don't see how we're somehow already better than the Jets were last year.
Yes, we added some good veterans and a few promising rookies, but it's not like we completely raided the Jets' defense. If you had to rank the Jets' defenders last year in terms of how valuable they were to that defense, I'm not sure any of the guys we added would rank higher than 7th or 8th.
Maybe the New York guys will correct me here, but it seems like Kris Jenkins, Shaun Ellis, Darrelle Revis, David Harris, Kerry Rhodes, and Calvin Pace were the real linchpins of that defense. Yes, Barton had a lot of tackles, but he played poorly late in the year (esp. in the Buffalo game). Coleman was stout in the run game, but he didn't push the pocket nearly as often as Shaun Ellis did.
I like the additions, but I don't think we have an elite, top ten defense just yet. Some young guys still have to develop and, hopefully, next year's 1st round pick will bring us an elite DE or safety.
I see a much more respectable defense, just not a finished product.
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Could be. But for every Indy and New York game in which our secondary looked impressive, there was a Dallas, Denver, or the second Ravens game in which, as Emmitt Smith would say, they got blowed up.
I like the potential of our young corners, but I don't think either played like a pro bowler last season. And we'll see about our safeties; I suspect we'll be taking advantage of the good crop of young guys available in next year's draft.
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Could be. But for every Indy and New York game in which our secondary looked impressive, there was a Dallas, Denver, or the second Ravens game in which, as Emmitt Smith would say, they got blowed up.
I like the potential of our young corners, but I don't think either played like a pro bowler last season. And we'll see about our safeties; I suspect we'll be taking advantage of the good crop of young guys available in next year's draft.
Aloysius said:
I suspect we'll be taking advantage of the good crop of young guys available in next year's draft.I don't know whether to call it optimism or pessimism (y'all decide), but I see one of those Browns draft "spoiler" years coming up in 2009. Like a 8-8 or 9-7 half-clunker, knocking us out of Mays/Berry territory.
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i like this guy's football knowledge, but let's not start getting ready for him to be named defensive player of the year. we still need to see his ability on the field, not just his smarts.
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He's growing on me everyday, but I still am hung up on him vs. Rey. If Rey has a better career I will be disappointed. Veikune seems like a great athlete but somethings missing, how hard can he hit? I saw the vid of that one block he threw in college, but will he be a game changer?
He's growing on me everyday, but I still am hung up on him vs. Rey. If Rey has a better career I will be disappointed. Veikune seems like a great athlete but somethings missing, how hard can he hit? I saw the vid of that one block he threw in college, but will he be a game changer?
Well you need to get over that fact real quick. Do you think Rey would have came here would he have been productive? I don't think so but in the end it doesn't matter what I think or you do. It's what the coaches think and what's best for the team and building a winner. They didn't think he would fit in the system so we didn't draft him.
I'm not trying to be an a-hole but I'm sick of the Cleveland media saying we should of picked him when he didn't fit our scheme. Didn't we have enough of that for the last ten years?
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I don't know about you blokes, but I wasn't sure how to say his name. Apparently, the Warriors have a program pronunciation guide for slow/non-worldly types like me.
I'm sure most here have heard it on the FM dial, but I hadn't.Hawaii Warriors Pronunciation Guide
2008 PRONUNCIATION GUIDE ... 94 David Veikune ....vay-KOO-nay
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@shepwrite said:
the character transplant Mangini is presiding over...they always had pretty good character IMO...it's the intelligence that got upgraded.
Hey, the bombs were absent for Anderson last year anyway. Teams figured him and the offense out. There really isn't anything to miss.
maybe it was Chud teams figured out...and Anderson was just running plays.
just sayin'.
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@shepwrite said:
Whoops. I was stuck on Vay-COON.Ha! Good to know, I was giving him an extra syllable (Vay-i-koon-yay)
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if the Jets were in the AFCN, would they have fared so well?
facing the Steel and the Rats twice a year will be a real test of Mangini's "D" mettle.
although some contend Veikune was projected for the LOLB, the reports i've seen have shown him an ambidextrous player that is adept at either side. if he doesn't dethrone the current incumbents he will no doubt push them all to another level. a quality pick by the new regime with tons of upside in my mind.
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@shepwrite said:
the character transplant Mangini is presiding over...they always had pretty good character IMO...it's the intelligence that got upgraded.
Hey, the bombs were absent for Anderson last year anyway. Teams figured him and the offense out. There really isn't anything to miss.
maybe it was Chud teams figured out...and Anderson was just running plays.
just sayin'.
they always had pretty good character IMO...it's the intelligence that got upgraded.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of chuckleheads in the lockerroom who really aren't "team first" guys. Not only that, but some bad attitude guys who have influence over younger guys. Some of these dudes roll in a really bad way. Mangini isn't done yet.
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The headline on OBR said that Veikune will be an ILB! I also read another one stating that Mangini wants him to play both ILB and OLB. We know how much Mankok emphasises versatility. I think he can definately play ILB, his combine was very similiar to Rey's.
He's big enough and fast enough, Im just still worried about his aggressivenes.... and by that I mean if he has any.
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Mangini said he's gonna start him at inside backer and depending on how he picks up the system and how he performs he could be moved to OLB but for now ILB is his starting point. That could be his exact words if I remember correctly
1st Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU 3rd Darius Slay, CB, Mississippi State4th Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma5th Earl Wolff, S, N.C. State6th Lucas Reed, TE, New Mexico -
they always had pretty good character IMO...it's the intelligence that got upgraded.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of chuckleheads in the lockerroom who really aren't "team first" guys. Not only that, but some bad attitude guys who have influence over younger guys. Some of these dudes roll in a really bad way. Mangini isn't done yet.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. There are plenty of chuckleheads in the lockerroom who really aren't "team first" guys. Not only that, but some bad attitude guys who have influence over younger guys. Some of these dudes roll in a really bad way. Mangini isn't done yet.
care to name drop? you've piqued my interest Earl.
are you referring to some Dline FA pickups they've added the past couple years?
still, on the whole, you must agree they are in the top third of the NFL for "decent Joes". if not i'd say you're probably nitpicking.
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Mangini said he's gonna start him at inside backer and depending on how he picks up the system and how he performs he could be moved to OLB but for now ILB is his starting point. That could be his exact words if I remember correctly
nmills said:
Mangini said he's gonna start him at inside backer and depending on how he picks up the system and how he performs he could be moved to OLB but for now ILB is his starting point. That could be his exact words if I remember correctlyconsidering the origin of this thread seems like his performance will probably be the decider.
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