Obama takes one step forward

Westside Steve

@heckofajobbrownie said:
I guess you're that simple.

I guess you're that loyal.

Hey I think you're probably right.

The whole Christianity gay marriage thing could have easily been a cynical ruse.

But doesn't that beg the question:

If he so boldy lied about that to keep his ignorant and superstitious voters on the bus are you concerned about any other issues that mean something to you personally?

Or are you just automatically on board with whatever positions he chosses?

WSS

calfoxwc

I guess you're that simple. Heck

***********************************

Forgive me, but I don't see that as addressing the issues Steve brought up.

It's just a personal slur against Steve.

Perhaps Dan will use you as an example of what's wrong with the board.

heckofajobbrownie

How often do I need to point you to the definition of ad hominem before stop using that line of attack? Do you realize that it's a sign of intellectual weakness? That it makes you look silly? Because you seem quite proud of it. And trot it out in every post.

I'll try one more time:

Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"

Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can't believe what you say."

Get it yet?

Let me walk you through it one more time:

Though I don't like it, strategically, I agree with Obama's decision to come out against gay marriage in the campaign. It was more important, especially for gays, that he be elected than it would be to have him take that stand and lose in November.

These are the political choices adults make all the time.

You think it makes you some sort of truth teller to see this an example if a "power-hungry liar" rather than a political decision, and a fairly obvious one. I just think it makes you a crank.

As for what went on his his church, I'm far less frightened by black people than you are, so I don't really care. Obama is not particularly religious, at least outwardly. Nor is he an Evangelical, nor does he hold views similar to Christian Right, or Christian fundamentalists in this country. Nor does he seem to rely on the Old Testament for wisdom and guidance on the legal or scientific issues facing the country. This much is plainly clear. To the extent that the loving example of Jesus informs his decisions, I don't care. One can come to the same decision with or without Jesus.

Nor do I think George Bush is particularly Christian because he claims to be, or because he goes to church every so often, one where white people sit calmly and don't frighten people like you. I don't see a lot of Jesus in george Bush. Lots of people don't. But that doesn't have anything to do with the type of church he occasionally went to - it has to do with George Bush.

There's a particular brand of Christianity that jibes pretty well with what I believe, even if the impetus for those beliefs comes from a different place than mine. I tend to find common ground with those people. People who cherry pick Leviticus as a way to launder their hate through the Bible? Not so much.

I can't walk you through my opinions any easier than that short of placing a dog collar around your neck.

Now you can go back to calling me a shill.

heckofajobbrownie

Also, why are you constantly so stunned that someone I supported for president tends to come down on the issues in a lot of the same ways that I do?

Are there any position that I take that you think I don't believe, but take out of loyalty to a person or party?

Can you name one? I bet this is going to be another one of these instances where I ask you to back up your shit and you can't, then you say, "Well, I still believe it anyway."

Which is another example of your intellectual laziness.

? mz.

WSS is the absolute King of Everyone Exclusively Follows the Party Line-ville.

It's maddening.

heckofajobbrownie

We'll see what he can come up with. I'm not holding my breath.

Westside Steve

mz. said:
WSS is the absolute King of Everyone Exclusively Follows the Party Line-ville.
It's maddening.

Actually mz the pussy didn't we just come to an understanding that you and I would vote out of party if there was a viable candidate that we liked?

As to Heck my point isn't really that he pimps Obama no matter what, though he does.

I assume you're gonna be more in line with his promises. But when that rhetoric mirrors that of the hated Bush, well........

And Heck, you can repeat the incorrect ad hominem until you get it right.

Ask yourself if the Priest believes what he does because he's a Priest OR he believes what he does so he became a Priest?

Get the nuance?

I might guess that had the Bush people come up with an acceptable salary way back when you'd be preaching the neocon party line with equal indignant zeal.

Maybe not, but the arguing seems to be the end in itself. I undserstand that sir.

Many on the left have voiced their animosity toward Christians and GW Bush in particular.

So if I point out that Obama at least pretended to be as or more devout and aligned in an even more offensive church I get the old "How dare you" routine.

If a Republican had been so overtly disingenuous in his pandering I have no doubt you guys would see that as worthy of as much ridicule as I give Obama.

Or he actually buys it. And Heck couldn't stand that.

WSS

? mz.

@westside-steve said:
Actually mz the pussy didn't we just come to an understanding that you and I would vote out of party if there was a viable candidate that we liked?
WSS

We did, then you accused an intelligent, free-thinking person (albeit one who disagrees with you most of the time) of the very same thing. I would just hope you'd give smart folks the benefit of the doubt.

Westside Steve

mz. said:
We did, then you accused an intelligent, free-thinking person (albeit one who disagrees with you most of the time) of the very same thing. I would just hope you'd give smart folks the benefit of the doubt.

I just see him as more of a party guy.

Like a Browns coach/fan.

If it's a Steeler it's a cheap shot.

A Brown and it's a good clean hit.

WSS

? mz.

I just hold the belief that smart people value personal ideology over some antiquated, pre-fab "party."

There are people who identify with a party b/c that party tends to think like they do and then there are those people who think like the party they identify with for whatever reason.

You can tell who those guys are here.

Westside Steve

mz. said:
I just hold the belief that smart people value personal ideology over some antiquated, pre-fab "party."
There are people who identify with a party b/c that party tends to think like they do and then there are those people who think like the party they identify with for whatever reason.

You can tell who those guys are here.

I think we can. And I say that animosity toward one guy or the other is a stronger force a lot of the time.

But it's natural to root for the guys you work for.

We all have a little pack animal in us.

WSS

heckofajobbrownie

"And Heck, you can repeat the incorrect ad hominem until you get it right.

Ask yourself if the Priest believes what he does because he's a Priest OR he believes what he does so he became a Priest?

Get the nuance?

I might guess that had the Bush people come up with an acceptable salary way back when you'd be preaching the neocon party line with equal indignant zeal."

I enjoyed how you pretend that your ad hominem attack was really nuance, and then followed it (unknowingly, it would seem) with another ad hominem attack - that one should dismiss what I say because I'm only in it for the money.

Come on. Make me work for it at least. This is too easy.

As for who employs me and pays my salary, it's a really big corporation, not a candidate or party or even a political movement. So in addition to being ad hominem, it was also completely off the mark.

But please, don't let that stop you.

Are you going to produce an instance of me shilling, or is this just another thing you believe but can't substantiate?

And don't you think this is beyond boring for everyone else? Isn't it enough that you lose these arguments all the time?

calfoxwc

I guess you're that simple. Heck

**********************************

So, that in itself is an ad hominem attack. Not that I care.

But you called Steve "simple" instead of addressing the issue Steve put forth.

And, you changed the subject with a personal attack, avoiding the issue.

I say - is there anything you disagree with about Obama's actions to date,

and were there any actions Bush took that you agreed with?

Don't call ME "simple", it's a simple set of questions - no need to revert

to a personal attack.

heckofajobbrownie

"I say - is there anything you disagree with about Obama's actions to date," Sure. We were just talking about one.

"and were there any actions Bush took that you agreed with?" Sure. We've mention them before as well.

calfoxwc

I don't see it. Maybe it's just me.

Care to point it out? You know, you were just talking about it....

help me out here. I don't have much time to be online right now...

heckofajobbrownie

For one, I disagree with Obama's stance on gay marriage. It's what this thread is about.

I just believe it to be a political stance. He's even admitted that his stance might be wrong. And the more states legalize gay marriage, and the more politicians (like the governor of Maine today) take the position I believe Obama shares but wasn't willing to take in the campaign, the harder it will be for Obama to maintain his current position. He's either going to have to admit he was wrong and go against a campaign platform, or he's going to have to go on pretending he thinks marriage is an institution that can only exist between a man and a woman.

But as I noted above, this is the position that I expected Obama to take, and the one I wanted him to take.

That doesn't mean I agree with it. It means that it was more important for me for Obama to win the election than to take the correct stand on gay marriage. Because marriage is not the only issue important to the gay community, and Obama is/was light years ahead of McCain/Palin on gay issues.

Much in the way you may disagree with how your boss is running the company, but you bite your tongue because it's more important to keep your job.

People make political decisions all the time, whether or not they're in politics. You do. I do. It's not necessarily a character flaw.

Or as Steve says, it makes him a "power-hungry liar."

Oh, the animus.

calfoxwc

Okay, I actually missed that. maybe... but you agree that he should take the stance because you wanted

him to lie about what he really believes so he could win the election, and you agree with what he really

believes, though he said the opposite during the campaign.

But, you expected him to ...eh...lie?, and you wanted him to ...lie? But you don't agree with it,

but it's okay because you figure he obviously didn't mean it, he only said it to get elected....

Okay, I buy your explanation. But I sure the heyl don't get it. @@

*********************************************************************

For one, I disagree with Obama's stance on gay marriage. It's what this thread is about.

I just believe it to be a political stance. He's even admitted that his stance might be wrong. And the more states legalize gay marriage, and the more politicians (like the governor of Maine today) take the position I believe Obama shares but wasn't willing to take in the campaign, the harder it will be for Obama to maintain his current position. He's either going to have to admit he was wrong and go against a campaign platform, or he's going to have to go on pretending he thinks marriage is an institution that can only exist between a man and a woman.

But as I noted above, this is the position that I expected Obama to take, and the one I wanted him to take.

That doesn't mean I agree with it.

calfoxwc

Wait, if I say I have a PHD from Harvard, and I get a professorship there....

but I never graduated from high school...

will they think I was just being very brilliant in my job search?

Or would I get my but fired and sent packing?

BTW, keeping quiet and not vocalizing at your job is not the same thing.

Westside Steve

@heckofajobbrownie said:

"And Heck, you can repeat the incorrect ad hominem until you get it right.

Ask yourself if the Priest believes what he does because he's a Priest OR he believes what he does so he became a Priest?

Get the nuance?

I might guess that had the Bush people come up with an acceptable salary way back when you'd be preaching the neocon party line with equal indignant zeal."

I enjoyed how you pretend that your ad hominem attack was really nuance, and then followed it (unknowingly, it would seem) with another ad hominem attack - that one should dismiss what I say because I'm only in it for the money.

Ahh again you try to change the subject.

Your assumed forte.

It isn't "just the money" it's the opportunity.

Terry Bradshaw is a Steeler.

Had he been drafted and successful in Cleveland he'd be a Brown.

He's in it for the football.

You're in it for the bickering.

Come on. Make me work for it at least. This is too easy.

As for who employs me and pays my salary, it's a really big corporation, not a candidate or party or even a political movement. So in addition to being ad hominem, it was also completely off the mark.

But please, don't let that stop you.

Why should bullshit stop me?

Are you going to produce an instance of me shilling, or is this just another thing you believe but can't substantiate?

Just about every post Heck.

(As you recall the only thing I didn't produce was an actual quote in which you said you personally swooned. But you did say it was an acceptable and natural reaction to an Obama speech)

This one.

You hate Christians BUT Obama's OK.

You hate recism but Obama's camp's cool

Those who oppose gay marriage are bigots.

But you're glad Obama did it.

You denounced Bush's cronyism bat when Obama assigns un vetted political hacks it's cool.

You bitch like hell how Bush defied the constitution then pimp the appointees who promise to dismantle it.

If I list pitffalls to cap and trade you ONLY sanp "Well you don't even know what it is!"

When it's clear I do you STILL avoid refuting the pitfalls I listd.

THEN you admit you don't even know how the Obama plan will work.

"But, by God" you tell us, "It'll be damn good buddy boy. Mark my words!!"

That's what I'd call shilling, Curt.

And don't you think this is beyond boring for everyone else? Isn't it enough that you lose these arguments all the time?

I haven't lost any Heck.

You just grumble something like that statement and demur.

But in the end I expect "everyone else" can read or not read as they wish as most will have a winner or loser in the box before they do.

Whaddya think?

WSS

heckofajobbrownie

Uh, this is so tiresome.

Your claim was that I was drinking the Obama Kool-Aid, and that I swooned and fell for everything he said. And when pressed, you couldn't find an example of me doing that. Not one.

But you can find me noting that people are inspired by Obama, which is clearly true and hardly controversial. So now that's your evidence that I'm swooning - because I noted that some people find him inspiring. Even though they're two different things.

And then you think you've won something.

Well, congratulations.

And then we pretend that you've somehow poked all sorts of holes in the arguments for a cap and trade system by presenting bizarre scenarios that have no real world application and make no point. Then you suggest it's some big offense that I admitted that I don't know what the particulars of the administration's plan will turn out to be. Maybe that's because the plan is still being drawn up and considered, and no one knows what shape it will take. Maybe that's because we're arguing the broad strokes. Maybe if you'd read any of the reports in the thread that Tupa started, or the one I started a few weeks ago, you'd see me disagreeing with one approach that the Obama administration is currently considering, which I think will be a disaster. But you don't, because those reports are long and involved and seemingly over your head.

So congrats again on showing me up on cap and trade. I really hope this is doing wonders for your ego.

Then come the slurs: I hate Christians (I should inform my wife and family), Obama's camp is racist. And I'm not aware of one political hack appointment, or evidence of cronyism, in the Obama administration. It doesn't seem like you know what the terms mean. Much like "quota." And I don't know who these appointments are who are supposedly dismantling the Constitution. Where are you getting this, from T? Rush?

There's not a single thing you just wrote that's honest or thoughtful. It's all animus. And all your evidence of me supposedly shilling is baseless, and all your suppositions are wrong.

But again, congrats.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to hate Christians and remind Tupa what a bigot he is because he doesn't agree with me on gay marriage. And that I hate his Christian ass too.