Camp Coleman... Shon that is...
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Ok....I give......Im wrong....
Pazstor sucks......Greco is the better RT....he will be 100% healthy.....completely return to form and be our answer going forward......
In fact, all my complaining was a waste......this team kicked ass last year, the draft picks were amazing, Hue is the next Bullychuck..... and I missed it it all......
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Pazstor has been sitting on his couch, waiting on a phone call. I doubt every team has their RT starter and depth squared away. So either there is a private bidding war going or Pasztor is not very good.
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Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
A blind man can't stay blind to Cam's ineptitude. Bring in Stevie Wonder to make the decision. He can hear the sound of a true backwards pancake above all the chatter.
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Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
Ah.....at least one person can see my view.....thanks for that Tour....
A blind man can't stay blind to Cam's ineptitude. Bring in Stevie Wonder to make the decision. He can hear the sound of a true backwards pancake above all the chatter.
Is Hue blind?......I dont know why Cam is even here.....let alone competing for his third position now.......complete failure at OG.....complete failure at C.....and, now, we want to see him at RT????......really???
Well end up spinning our wheels all training camp and preseason....then cutting him at the end of preseason....only then scrambling to sign some udfa off someones practice squad at the last second.....book it......wheels spinning with no progress....(when we had the guy and invested 2 years of development already)
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Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
Ah.....at least one person can see my view.....thanks for that Tour....
A blind man can't stay blind to Cam's ineptitude. Bring in Stevie Wonder to make the decision. He can hear the sound of a true backwards pancake above all the chatter.
Is Hue blind?......I dont know why Cam is even here.....let alone competing for his third position now.......complete failure at OG.....complete failure at C.....and, now, we want to see him at RT????......really???
Well end up spinning our wheels all training camp and preseason....then cutting him at the end of preseason....only then scrambling to sign some udfa off someones practice squad at the last second.....book it......wheels spinning with no progress....(when we had the guy and invested 2 years of development already)
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Pazstor has been sitting on his couch, waiting on a phone call. I doubt every team has their RT starter and depth squared away. So either there is a private bidding war going or Pasztor is not very good.
Pazstor has been sitting on his couch, waiting on a phone call. I doubt every team has their RT starter and depth squared away. So either there is a private bidding war going or Pasztor is not very good.
Just wondering out loud......If Cam Erving was sitting on his couch, how many phone calls would he be getting?.....cause, at this point, he's the one we've chosen to bring to camp over Paz......
Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Quick snippet from an article posted yesterday, noting him as one the best 5 FA's still out there....
Ive highlighted a few points that, TO ME, make him a smart choice for a building team.....mostly his youth & versatility...
I do dispute the part that says we only brought him in to fill a void until Shon Coleman was ready.....considering we signed him during the 2015 season( a full 6 months before Coleman was even drafted)....
Austin Pasztor, OL
Pasztor made our list of the top 5 free agents still available a couple weeks ago. He stays here because he has managed, against all odds, to carve out a good career.
Since he first came to the league as an undrafted free agent with the Minnesota Vikings in 2012, Pasztor has worked his way into the starting lineup for 43 of the 58 games heβs played. He has demonstrated that he is solid as a right tackle, right guard and left guard.
That versatility and the fact heβs still only 26 years old should make Pasztor a valuable commodity somewhere. The fact that the Browns released him after he started 16 games for them last year doesnβt look good on paper, but Pasztor was only brought in to fill a void until Shon Coleman was ready.
Pasztor proved, though, that heβs more than just a stopgap player. Heβs good enough to help a team for the long haul, either as a starter or a top backup. Someone is sure to give him the chance to do so soon.
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Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
It just seems weird that the offensive lines he temporarily started for didn't want to keep him at the bang for the buck prices he's willing to accept especially for a money ball organization that wants a bang for the buck talent/upside. Almost half his starts were here as 2015 fill-ins and 2016. There's 30 other teams (or at least a volume within that) not considering him in spite of how reasonable he can fit a salary cap At the end of 2015, I thought Pazstor was a pleasant surprise at OG; but Bitonio and Greco were the heavy faves to keep those spots in 2016 while RT was the opening money ball fit him into. This year, we seem like we're deeper at OG and Center so this thread went right to Paz when a concern developed about what if Coleman is still injured or gets re-injured...
If anything, that should put Cam's countless mental and physical blunders on film (w/ 1st round contract) at the end of a money ball plank waiting for a few more okie drills to punctuate the goodbye. They've been giving him the rope to hang himself and he's down to his last position/rites. The new regime wasn't the one that reached on Cam so I'm believing they do not have the blinders on to reward him if Coleman gets hurt. If he doesn't pleasantly surprise the right person - who here would be surprised to see him cut?
How many here before Paz pleasantly surprised us filling in at OG in 2015 - really knew who he was or how he got here? That said, I've played OG and I've played OT before and there's a big difference in space you're accountable for pass protection as an OT usually against more gifted athletes than some of the heavier compact powerhouses inside with less lateral space to be concerned with.
Our offensive line was not well respected in pas protection and the 2 guys that drew the most frequent complaints from our fanbase were; 1) Cam Erving, 2) Austin Pazstor. I wonder how much, if any, of Pasztor's last couple offensive line coaches tried to persuade the HC/FO to keep him especially in Cleveland under the money ball theme if he was good for the price they paid. We had 4 different QBs that couldn't finish starts (and some of those guys more than once) regardless of how fair or unfair it was to pin it all on just Erving and Paz all the time.
The other side is - there's a lot of guys like Paz that may offer better pass pro consistency at RT so their teams don't have to feel like they need to keep their TEs in to pass pro more than getting those big targets/catch radius' downfield to help their QB. Maybe that was a big part of the reason Barnidge's receptions decreased by about 23 while his TD receptions decreased from 9 to 2 especially after the matchup against Wake alley-ooped you better get this guy some help in pass pro or that QB t-shirt is going to go from XL to Tent-size.
This is where the question comes in - does Paz fit the long term plan or not? And part of that involves some confidence in thinking Coleman should be ready to be healthy and good enough to walk into the fate they planned for him. As far as those competing for the job - I mentioned the 2 guys I was familiar with and that went over like a fart in church. That said, there's probably other candidates here our staff feels good about for the competition. The other part of the plan is how much do you want your TE pass blocking in a passing era. We went after a TE in round 1 that it appears we'd rather use more like Jimmy Graham/Tyler Eifert weapon as a receiver than dual purpose prototype like Mark Bavaro or even Heath Miller (who put Shawn Merriman on his back 1 on 1 back when they were showing his highlights on draft day). That said, the one thing OJ Howard needed to work on when he returned last year was his consistency with blocking and he did. I think he's about a year or 2 older than Njoku so I'm guessing that part of his game can improve too if it's what they want him to be
I'm excited to see what Coleman has. He's got the same kind of mental toughness Eric Berry has in overcoming a life-threatening illness. He's also had experience as a LT so I'm hoping that means he offers more in terms of good feet and lateral movement that some of our other former college LTs haven't been able to transition over to this level.
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Paz is not a "very good" RT... just a good one, but that makes him better than about one-third of NFL starters at RT.
Plus have to remember he started all 16 for us last season with 15 at RT until we "experimented" in Week 17 moving him to RG.
Once again... I think the solution is starter incentives atop a reserve base salary. But I would not expect him to jump on that deal structure at this point... and also would not expect us to offer it as long as we stay blind to Cam's ineptitude.
Ah.....at least one person can see my view.....thanks for that Tour....
A blind man can't stay blind to Cam's ineptitude. Bring in Stevie Wonder to make the decision. He can hear the sound of a true backwards pancake above all the chatter.
Is Hue blind?......I dont know why Cam is even here.....let alone competing for his third position now.......complete failure at OG.....complete failure at C.....and, now, we want to see him at RT????......really???
Well end up spinning our wheels all training camp and preseason....then cutting him at the end of preseason....only then scrambling to sign some udfa off someones practice squad at the last second.....book it......wheels spinning with no progress....(when we had the guy and invested 2 years of development already)
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Cutting Erving is a great idea....starting Coleman may also be a great idea(well have to wait to see on that one).....but, after cutting Erving, not having a legit(& NFL experienced) RT concerns me....
Feels, to me, like the Browns elect new starters(a little too early) and immediately cut the previous player(competitor, starter, alternate), as opposed to retaining them(and RT feels that way too...like Barny?....Whitner?.....Gip?)
Keeping some of these guys, instead of dumping them offers....
1) competition at camp....which helps build better players...
2) DEPTH.....which we seem to avoid like the plague.....and is something that has killed this team in recent years....
Until we sort this out, we will constantly be cutting/releasing/not signing guys and relying on unproven starters, backed up by ??????
Building a quality team goes much deeper than just adding new starters, which seems to be our focus...
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1) Not just me, PFF thought Paz was good - and that's why I kept repeating it. I'd still rather have Paz than Erving as the swing tackle if Greco and Drango weren't there. I think Coleman/Greco will be the starter and backup T on day 1.. who is which remains to be seen.
2) Zeitler was purchased bc any opportunity to solidify a starting position is.. good. Not sure how that's confusing. He's better than Greco - and besides we do need insurance that Greco's dropoff [year over year he's been progressively worse] won't continue.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
1) Not just me, PFF thought Paz was good - and that's why I kept repeating it. I'd still rather have Paz than Erving as the swing tackle if Greco and Drango weren't there. I think Coleman/Greco will be the starter and backup T on day 1.. who is which remains to be seen.
2) Zeitler was purchased bc any opportunity to solidify a starting position is.. good. Not sure how that's confusing. He's better than Greco - and besides we do need insurance that Greco's dropoff [year over year he's been progressively worse] won't continue.
1) Not just me, PFF thought Paz was good - and that's why I kept repeating it. I'd still rather have Paz than Erving as the swing tackle
Me too....which was a simple point that got missed....it's not about how good(or great) Paz may be....it's about the Browns letting him walk and making Erving the #2 going forward.....when, over the last 2 years, Paz was clearly the better performer....
Its not about where he ranks in the league....it's about where he ranks on our roster....which is all that matters...
Why this isnt obvious and is so hard for people to see, is beyond me.....
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1) Not just me, PFF thought Paz was good - and that's why I kept repeating it. I'd still rather have Paz than Erving as the swing tackle
Me too....which was a simple point that got missed....it's not about how good(or great) Paz may be....it's about the Browns letting him walk and making Erving the #2 going forward.....when, over the last 2 years, Paz was clearly the better performer....
Its not about where he ranks in the league....it's about where he ranks on our roster....which is all that matters...
Why this isnt obvious and is so hard for people to see, is beyond me.....
Me too....which was a simple point that got missed....it's not about how good(or great) Paz may be....it's about the Browns letting him walk and making Erving the #2 going forward.....when, over the last 2 years, Paz was clearly the better performer....
Its not about where he ranks in the league....it's about where he ranks on our roster....which is all that matters...
Why this isnt obvious and is so hard for people to see, is beyond me.....
My take is Erving has yet to make anyone feel good about any position he's played Mud so I don't think he's being handed the #2 spot. I think that's media interpretation. Please hear me out...
So, a legit question you will ask is why is he on the roster and Paz is not? My guess is one guy was drafted in round 1 and the other wasn't drafted at all unless we want to count the CFL. As I mentioned earlier to somebody, they're giving the 1st round guy enough rope to hang himself again unless he pleasantly surprises the right person. We've been cutting a lot of guys in training camp so let's not confuse our roster before the first day of contact with the active roster we will have heading into the opener. I could be wrong on this but I doubt it. I can see a lot of FO/Owners saying if you're gonna cut a first round guy - you better make sure he can't play first. They film practices so they'll get enough okie drill uh-ohs on tape to punctuate the decision if the miraculous about-face never occurs. If he keeps looking like he did, this isn't a money ball keeper for our active roster in 2017.
Now, back to Paz - he's still unemployed by not just Cleveland, but 31 other NFL teams. There's gotta be something on film or there's really a sum of 32 teams conspiring against him in spite of the bargain/humbling wages he's willing to play for. The first team he tried out for in 2012 (Minnesota) cut him in August or Sept of that year. He caught on with Jax in 2013 and a couple injuries to their line later - he moved from OG to RT and started. I think he even stayed there for the 2014 season and started again before they cut him prior to the 2015 season (or in that Sept)showing 1 more team not seeing this guy for their long range plans.
Then, he came to Cleveland in 2015 and pleasantly surprised a lot of us when he filled in as a starter at OG near the end of the year. In 2016, he became the starting RT that wasn't a bad run blocker but our fan base seemed to remember him most for his inconsistencies in pass pro. My question is which of the 3 NFL teams he temporarily played for saw him as a long term plan? Shouldn't we begin to ask why he's 3 for 3 in this category? What does some of our fans and/or PFF understand that those 3 teams were unable to? And he's available today so how many of the 29 other teams are seeing him this same way? Again, he went undrafted so it's not like this team is the only one refusing to see him as a long range plan - it's been all 32 teams that began studying him before the draft. Is it because all these teams have more access to all his game film than our fan base does?
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1) Not just me, PFF thought Paz was good - and that's why I kept repeating it. I'd still rather have Paz than Erving as the swing tackle if Greco and Drango weren't there. I think Coleman/Greco will be the starter and backup T on day 1.. who is which remains to be seen.
2) Zeitler was purchased bc any opportunity to solidify a starting position is.. good. Not sure how that's confusing. He's better than Greco - and besides we do need insurance that Greco's dropoff [year over year he's been progressively worse] won't continue.
1) Not just me, PFF thought Paz was good - and that's why I kept repeating it. I'd still rather have Paz than Erving as the swing tackle if Greco and Drango weren't there. I think Coleman/Greco will be the starter and backup T on day 1.. who is which remains to be seen.
Where was Paz ranked in PFF Pass Pro numbers? Seemed like a solid disciplined road-grater run blocker,yes? But also seem to remember some sloppy feet, undisciplined in pass pro? I totally agree on S.Coleman at RT this season. JT even thinks Shon's ready.. but a drop net (not named Cam) would be nice
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