Two Tight End System?
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Im thinking Njoku could be the better prospect(over Howard), but just didnt get the exposure of an Alabama or the opportunities, from his system, to rack up the same numbers......pretty excited about him......
Gotta add, that when Barny went all 1000 yds, in "his year", I pointed out that it was a 1 year aberration...only to be shot down by the sunshine crowd....but, right again.....
Barns less than 1000 yards last year had plenty to do with QB playIm thinking Njoku could be the better prospect(over Howard), but just didnt get the exposure of an Alabama or the opportunities, from his system, to rack up the same numbers......pretty excited about him......
Gotta add, that when Barny went all 1000 yds, in "his year", I pointed out that it was a 1 year aberration...only to be shot down by the sunshine crowd....but, right again.....
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Barns less than 1000 yards last year had plenty to do with QB playIm thinking Njoku could be the better prospect(over Howard), but just didnt get the exposure of an Alabama or the opportunities, from his system, to rack up the same numbers......pretty excited about him......
Gotta add, that when Barny went all 1000 yds, in "his year", I pointed out that it was a 1 year aberration...only to be shot down by the sunshine crowd....but, right again.....
Barns less than 1000 yards last year had plenty to do with QB play
Or, we could look at Barnidge's entire NFL career and see that 2015 was an exception to the rule. Let's try not pretend the QBing was terrific in 2015.
He had some drops in 2016 as well as some difficulty getting open when there weren't defensive breakdowns leaving him wide open. I remember the second time we played Cincy in 2015, they game planned to jam him at the los. This carried over into 2016 when a lot of our opponents did this to him; which left us counting on inexperienced first year starters at WRs (Pryor & Coleman/Louis). Makes sense to me. Aside from that, Barnidge looked like he was in pain via the way he was running/waddling at 31 years of age. 55 receptions wasn't horrible; but it was quite a drop off from 78 as was going from 9 TD receptions to just 2.
Hue loved using Ryan Hewitt as the HB in Cincy while his 6'6" TE Tyler's Eiferts provided 10 TD receptions in that red zone our team gagged on last year. Even Pryor, for the year he had going over 1000 yards receiving, could only score 4 TDs. Hue has to be pretty excited about DeValve & Njoku.
I know this goes against my level of trust here - but could you imagine if Josh Gordon could finally prioritize his life to the extent he could consistently pass enough piss tests to play ball? We'd have Josh Gordon, Kenny Britt, David Njoku, Seth DeValve and RB Duke Johnson giving Hue some similarity to AJ Green, Marvin Jones Jr, Ryan Hewitt, Tyler Eifert and RB Gio Bernard that he coordinated to a 12-4 record. We even have one of his OGs (Zeitler). I doubt we're going from 1-15 to 12-4 with he experience levels we're counting on here. The question is - can Kessler or Kizer be somewhat equivalent to Andy Dalton in one of his best years as a NFL QB?
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
BTW former Texas A&M 5 star WR recruit Ricky Seals-Jones signed as a FA with Ariz. and is making the conversion to TE @ 6'5" 250 lbs, just as I suggested earlier this year. He should have stayed in school and made the conversion his senior year much like our former RB Brandon Williams did to CB his senior year and is now a starter for Ariz.in the NFL as a CB. Stupid is as stupid does. Tough to learn a position while trying to make a team with no prior experience in that position.
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BTW former Texas A&M 5 star WR recruit Ricky Seals-Jones signed as a FA with Ariz. and is making the conversion to TE @ 6'5" 250 lbs, just as I suggested earlier this year. He should have stayed in school and made the conversion his senior year much like our former RB Brandon Williams did to CB his senior year and is now a starter for Ariz.in the NFL as a CB. Stupid is as stupid does. Tough to learn a position while trying to make a team with no prior experience in that position.
BTW former Texas A&M 5 star WR recruit Ricky Seals-Jones signed as a FA with Ariz. and is making the conversion to TE @ 6'5" 250 lbs, just as I suggested earlier this year. He should have stayed in school and made the conversion his senior year much like our former RB Brandon Williams did to CB his senior year and is now a starter for Ariz.in the NFL as a CB. Stupid is as stupid does. Tough to learn a position while trying to make a team with no prior experience in that position.
Ricky Jones? Is Chuckie still in love?
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Barns less than 1000 yards last year had plenty to do with QB play
Or, we could look at Barnidge's entire NFL career and see that 2015 was an exception to the rule. Let's try not pretend the QBing was terrific in 2015.
He had some drops in 2016 as well as some difficulty getting open when there weren't defensive breakdowns leaving him wide open. I remember the second time we played Cincy in 2015, they game planned to jam him at the los. This carried over into 2016 when a lot of our opponents did this to him; which left us counting on inexperienced first year starters at WRs (Pryor & Coleman/Louis). Makes sense to me. Aside from that, Barnidge looked like he was in pain via the way he was running/waddling at 31 years of age. 55 receptions wasn't horrible; but it was quite a drop off from 78 as was going from 9 TD receptions to just 2.
Hue loved using Ryan Hewitt as the HB in Cincy while his 6'6" TE Tyler's Eiferts provided 10 TD receptions in that red zone our team gagged on last year. Even Pryor, for the year he had going over 1000 yards receiving, could only score 4 TDs. Hue has to be pretty excited about DeValve & Njoku.
I know this goes against my level of trust here - but could you imagine if Josh Gordon could finally prioritize his life to the extent he could consistently pass enough piss tests to play ball? We'd have Josh Gordon, Kenny Britt, David Njoku, Seth DeValve and RB Duke Johnson giving Hue some similarity to AJ Green, Marvin Jones Jr, Ryan Hewitt, Tyler Eifert and RB Gio Bernard that he coordinated to a 12-4 record. We even have one of his OGs (Zeitler). I doubt we're going from 1-15 to 12-4 with he experience levels we're counting on here. The question is - can Kessler or Kizer be somewhat equivalent to Andy Dalton in one of his best years as a NFL QB?
Or, we could look at Barnidge's entire NFL career and see that 2015 was an exception to the rule. Let's try not pretend the QBing was terrific in 2015.
I'm not a Barnidge apologist by any means, but that's not exactly a fair argument. There was never an opportunity for Barnidge to receive targets. 2015 really represented the first opportunity for him as a lead TE or not behind a HOF WR and Barnidge responded accordingly.
For the first two years of his career, he was third fiddle TE on a team that had bad QB play and only targeted their TE's about 60 or so times a season collectively. CAR was all WR - Muhammad and Smith were bringing in 100-130 targets each. Then a down year with Claustrich at the helm, and CAR brought in Olson (and Shockey for a season). Barnidge was never a lead TE for them, never received any significant targets, and never stood a chance.
I understand the Barnidge cut and I'm not saying we should have kept him. But he's a good player, a good teammate, and a good guy. As a lead TE, it's not without the realm of possibility that he'd be a 900 yd guy.
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Or, we could look at Barnidge's entire NFL career and see that 2015 was an exception to the rule. Let's try not pretend the QBing was terrific in 2015.
I'm not a Barnidge apologist by any means, but that's not exactly a fair argument. There was never an opportunity for Barnidge to receive targets. 2015 really represented the first opportunity for him as a lead TE or not behind a HOF WR and Barnidge responded accordingly.
For the first two years of his career, he was third fiddle TE on a team that had bad QB play and only targeted their TE's about 60 or so times a season collectively. CAR was all WR - Muhammad and Smith were bringing in 100-130 targets each. Then a down year with Claustrich at the helm, and CAR brought in Olson (and Shockey for a season). Barnidge was never a lead TE for them, never received any significant targets, and never stood a chance.
I understand the Barnidge cut and I'm not saying we should have kept him. But he's a good player, a good teammate, and a good guy. As a lead TE, it's not without the realm of possibility that he'd be a 900 yd guy.
I'm not a Barnidge apologist by any means, but that's not exactly a fair argument. There was never an opportunity for Barnidge to receive targets. 2015 really represented the first opportunity for him as a lead TE or not behind a HOF WR and Barnidge responded accordingly.
For the first two years of his career, he was third fiddle TE on a team that had bad QB play and only targeted their TE's about 60 or so times a season collectively. CAR was all WR - Muhammad and Smith were bringing in 100-130 targets each. Then a down year with Claustrich at the helm, and CAR brought in Olson (and Shockey for a season). Barnidge was never a lead TE for them, never received any significant targets, and never stood a chance.
I understand the Barnidge cut and I'm not saying we should have kept him. But he's a good player, a good teammate, and a good guy. As a lead TE, it's not without the realm of possibility that he'd be a 900 yd guy.
You make some really good points. Good post Couch! Believe it or not, I LIKED Barnidge as a person and as a role model for younger players (especially to show guys he could persevere if he kept working hard). He was also a good community guy that went over-seas to honor the troops. I think we all enjoyed what he did in 2015 enough to set up some expectations for 2016.
Unfortunately, the other side of this is - it's business. He was given a hefty raise at 30 years of age after only 1 season of performing like a starting TE that didn't block well. Nonetheless, that one season he gave us about 79 receptions (9 were TDs) for 1043 yards in 2015. 1 year later, he looked like he aged about 7 years just in terms of watching him struggle to get open (often looking like he was in a lot of pain) while we are all aware our QBs didn't do him very many favors. He lost 24 receptions and 7 TD receptions as well as about 431 receiving yards. The timing of the about-face couldn't have been worse for him while he was finally earning a dream salary he longed for. Consequently, the FO also had to do an about-face and come to grips with the reality he will be turning 32 in September (instead of looking at him like he offered us a continuity we could trust and move forward with via the raise). Now, TE returned to being a position we needed to upgrade; Barnidge was released and we selected the 20 year old David Njoku in round 1.
There's a lot of short windows in the NFL and this is a classic example...
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BTW former Texas A&M 5 star WR recruit Ricky Seals-Jones signed as a FA with Ariz. and is making the conversion to TE @ 6'5" 250 lbs, just as I suggested earlier this year. He should have stayed in school and made the conversion his senior year much like our former RB Brandon Williams did to CB his senior year and is now a starter for Ariz.in the NFL as a CB. Stupid is as stupid does. Tough to learn a position while trying to make a team with no prior experience in that position.
BTW former Texas A&M 5 star WR recruit Ricky Seals-Jones signed as a FA with Ariz. and is making the conversion to TE @ 6'5" 250 lbs, just as I suggested earlier this year. He should have stayed in school and made the conversion his senior year much like our former RB Brandon Williams did to CB his senior year and is now a starter for Ariz.in the NFL as a CB. Stupid is as stupid does. Tough to learn a position while trying to make a team with no prior experience in that position.
Glad he's gone. Real football players might get on the field now.
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Don't forget about DeValve..
He played in 12 games but only registered stats in 8 games. One catch per game, except against the Giants he had 3 for 39 yards.
DeValve doesn't have to share snaps with Barnidge any more.....but they drafted a TE in round 1.
Kessler and DeValve have seen the Browns spend high draft picks to take the starting jobs.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Hernandez and Gronk were both weapons not sure if the current Browns have those guys on the roster. Glad the Browns didn't invest long term in either him or Pryor.
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Hernandez and Gronk were both weapons not sure if the current Browns have those guys on the roster. Glad the Browns didn't invest long term in either him or Pryor.
Hernandez and Gronk were both weapons
Certainly losing the starting job is much worse for Kessler than DeValve. I mean, how many two QB sets are there?
None the less, drafting a TE in round 1 is not a resounding vote of confidence in DeValve.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Don't forget about DeValve..
He played in 12 games but only registered stats in 8 games. One catch per game, except against the Giants he had 3 for 39 yards.
DeValve doesn't have to share snaps with Barnidge any more.....but they drafted a TE in round 1.
Kessler and DeValve have seen the Browns spend high draft picks to take the starting jobs.
He played in 12 games but only registered stats in 8 games. One catch per game, except against the Giants he had 3 for 39 yards.
DeValve doesn't have to share snaps with Barnidge any more.....but they drafted a TE in round 1.
Kessler and DeValve have seen the Browns spend high draft picks to take the starting jobs.
With Hawkins gone, are we positive we won't be seeing DeValve in the slot at all this year?
Back when we drafted DeValve, he was listed as a WR by Pro Football Weekly and as a WR/TE by the Browns. Now I could be wrong here and the Browns could be sizing him up for a big role blocking people (ie; he gained 10 lbs & he's now listed only as a TE); but I'm thinking he'd would be a really nice size advantage over all the #3 corners we haven't had.
Would this suck?
TE - Njoku, Slot Rec - DeValve, WR - Britt, WR - Coleman
If not, we'll be prolly be using a lot of 2 TE sets with Njoku and DeValve anyway.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Hernandez and Gronk were both weapons
Certainly losing the starting job is much worse for Kessler than DeValve. I mean, how many two QB sets are there?
None the less, drafting a TE in round 1 is not a resounding vote of confidence in DeValve.
Certainly losing the starting job is much worse for Kessler than DeValve. I mean, how many two QB sets are there?
None the less, drafting a TE in round 1 is not a resounding vote of confidence in DeValve.
That's one way of looking at it. However, Barnidge is the TE that got his walking papers (not DeValve). Also keep in mind, DeValve was a 4th round draft pick out of the Ivy League that began as a WR and was listed as a WR on his Princeton bio page (info from the article I list below) so I don't see the choice of Njoku as an insult to DeValve. I don't really get the vibe our Coaching staff and FO is down on DeValve. I think they like how many ways they can use him.
Here's part of an article titled "Browns coveted Princeton TE Seth DeValve for his mismatch potential" from Andrew Gribble I found on him in www.clevelandbrowns.com: as DeValve described it, he was an "H-back adjuster" who moved all across the field like a chess piece. On some plays he'd line up wide, on some he'd be in the slot and some he'd have his hand in the dirt like a traditional TE. "I was doing TE in various amounts depending on the year," DeValve said. "I was always used as a hybrid TE/WR so to say I'm making a transition from WR to TE isn't extremely accurate."
Sounds like a nice guy to have if nobody can step up at WR. We got Hawkins as a FA from Cincy. When the 5'6"/5'7" Hawk departed, the guy that played in the slot for Cincy during their 12-4 season in 2015 was a 6'2" Mohamed Sanu. When they wanted any compact shake and bake they often looked to their 5'9" 205 lb RB Giovani Benard. They drafted Eifert to play TE and he contributed 10 TD receptions. They also had a 6'4" WR AJ Green enjoying 10 TDs 86 rec 1297 yards and a 6'2" Marvin Jones contributing 65 rec for 816 yards and 4 TDs. Long story short, the bigger catch radius and size of targets were extremely helpful to the QB of this offense Hue coordinated.
It looks to me like Hue and the FO want to set something up similar here. Duke Johnson is the compact Giovani Benard receiving back. Clearly, we don't have an AJ Green at 6'4" but the 6'3" Kenny Britt was a 1st round pick who is coming off his best season receptions-wise (and he DID stay at a Holiday Inn). DeValve looks like he will either be the Slot Receiver Mo Sanu equiv or TE Ryan Hewitt (he resembles less IMO). The one part I don't find parallel is the 5'11" Corey Coleman to the 6'2" Marvin Jones (who now plays for Detroit) but the 6'2" Ricardo Louis is the guy they kept putting out there the 6 weeks Coleman was injured. Other options are all 6'0" or taller: Payton, Higgins and Hall.
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For me the slot has to be reserved for a very good WR who simply has issues getting off the line vs. press coverage. If at his size that is Devalve, then he does not have a place in this league.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
For me the slot has to be reserved for a very good WR who simply has issues getting off the line vs. press coverage. If at his size that is Devalve, then he does not have a place in this league.
For me the slot has to be reserved for a very good WR who simply has issues getting off the line vs. press coverage. If at his size that is Devalve, then he does not have a place in this league.
In many cases, this is true Tour.
I have some examples of otherwise/exceptions to the rule. A lot of people forget Randy Moss was a slot receiver the year he was the ROTY in Minnesota with Jake Reed and Cris Carter starting outside.
Larry Fitzgerald was moved to Slot Receiver when Arians got to Arizona. Eric Decker has played some Slot Receiver. Jarvis Landry played a lot in the slot and he's a pretty strong guy. I think a compact guy like Wes Welker began in the slot. Hasn't Anquan Boldin played in the slot at certain parts of his career?
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He played in 12 games but only registered stats in 8 games. One catch per game, except against the Giants he had 3 for 39 yards.
DeValve doesn't have to share snaps with Barnidge any more.....but they drafted a TE in round 1.
Kessler and DeValve have seen the Browns spend high draft picks to take the starting jobs.
With Hawkins gone, are we positive we won't be seeing DeValve in the slot at all this year?
Back when we drafted DeValve, he was listed as a WR by Pro Football Weekly and as a WR/TE by the Browns. Now I could be wrong here and the Browns could be sizing him up for a big role blocking people (ie; he gained 10 lbs & he's now listed only as a TE); but I'm thinking he'd would be a really nice size advantage over all the #3 corners we haven't had.
Would this suck?
TE - Njoku, Slot Rec - DeValve, WR - Britt, WR - Coleman
If not, we'll be prolly be using a lot of 2 TE sets with Njoku and DeValve anyway.
With Hawkins gone, are we positive we won't be seeing DeValve in the slot at all this year?
I see the slot being a position for really 'quick' guys. Not so much for TE's. Which is what we drafted him for...knowing that he doesn't have NFL H-back quickness.
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I see the slot being a position for really 'quick' guys. Not so much for TE's. Which is what we drafted him for...knowing that he doesn't have NFL H-back quickness.
Frank Wycheck made Pro Bowls as an NFL H-back so I'm not buying your pov that DeValve doesn't have H-back quickness. I also don't think they were trying to draft the next Mark Bavaro when DeValve is only 6'3" so I shared the article about what DeValve played at Princeton. FWIW, Anquan Boldin was never really quick as he was precise and his 40 times that put him into round 2 (instead of round 1) are indicative of that. And the 6'2" Mohamed Sanu that Hue used in the slot in Cincy in 2015 when they went 12-4 wasn't a lightning quick little guy either. He was more of a bigger receiver Hue wanted isolated on a stereotypical sized 3rd corner ranging anywhere from 5'9" to 5'11" in hopes of an advantage worth tapping. I'm thinking Hue sees more of this role for DeValve as well as any double tight work he can as well.
Your point I disagreed with most was when you said we drafted Njoku in the first round because the Browns were disappointed in DeValve. I clarified Barnidge was the guy who got his walking papers while I think the Browns see DeValve as a versatile guy they can line up inside or outside, on or off the line of scrimmage.
I think I explained everything about DeValve (using his own words) in the part of the article I shared. Here's a cut and paste of that and I'm bolding the part shaping my pov today. Here's part of an article titled "Browns coveted Princeton TE Seth DeValve for his mismatch potential" from Andrew Gribble I found on him in www.clevelandbrowns.com: as DeValve described it, he was an "H-back adjuster" who moved all across the field like a chess piece. On some plays he'd line up wide, on some he'd be in the slot and some he'd have his hand in the dirt like a traditional TE. "I was doing TE in various amounts depending on the year," DeValve said. "I was always used as a hybrid TE/WR so to say I'm making a transition from WR to TE isn't extremely accurate."
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