A Complicated Defence
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I seem to recall a couple of seasons ago (Pettine/O'Neil), one of the excuses for the Browns futility on the defensive side of the football, was that the schemes were too complicated. Nobody knew precisely where they were supposed to go and it involved a lot of mixing and matching assignments.
That could have just been an excuse because the team sucked. But it was a sentiment often echoed by folks here and "experts" (radio pundits and the such).
I like Williams and his "go fuck 'em up" approach. His attitude is the right one. This thread is not aimed at pissing on him.
But if a group of aging veteran defenders couldn't figure out Jim O'Neil's "system", I fear a far worse situation with a group of rookies and second-year hopefuls deciphering one that seems... almost schizophrenic in (even just) what position one is expected to play from down to down.
Am I the only one hesitant about this? And if I am (and you're comfortable)... What inspires that confidence? What is unique in Williams' approach that makes it more user friendly than what we've seen in the past?
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Sounds too complicated if you can't even spell it correctly.
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Sounds too complicated if you can't even spell it correctly.
lol
Pettine & O'Neal = DL reads the offense (offence) and does something based on that read.
The LB'ers do their thing based on what the DL has read.....but are they sure that they know what the DL read? Are they guessing wrong as to what the DL is about to do.
Secondary does what they do based on what the groups in front of them read.
Way too much hoping that everyone is making the correct assumptions.
Bottom line, players not knowing what they're supposed to do because they're not sure what the group in front of them is gonna do.
Didn't O'Neal wind up with the 49'ers last year? And didn't they have the worst D in the league?
Williams has come to our D where the bar had been set at dachshund height. (bring back the wiener dog half-time races)
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Sounds too complicated if you can't even spell it correctly.
Fuckin' god damn Canadians.
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First we have to stop making average Offensive players into All-Stars playing against us at the RB & QB position..Than Score the damn ball with Touchdowns & not settling for Field Goals..in 2 seasons with Horton we managed giving up 425 points per season, about 27/game and we only scored around 275 points per season. With Jim F'n O'Neil we gave up 432 points, 27/game his final season. 339 points, 21.1/game his first season. Problem of many, we were only scoring around 285/season with O'Neil..It's unfair to compare Gregg Williams past with these Utes, but getting anywhere around giving up under 25-23/game would be a good start. Williams first boot was inserted into his Defenses a$$ Sunday & Monday..Watch what a control-ed Nastiness can do with a young staff is where am at right now..Baby Steps..We will be Walking with a Tude soon is my hope..Hue! The Play Card has to give us a chance to Score TOUCHDOWNS!!
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Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
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Fuckin' god damn Canadians.
I was going to say...are you British? Do yourself a favour...and don't pronounce it : Al-you-min-ee-um either. It is Uh-loo-min-um
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Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
It also helps just a little bit if you add far better, faster, more talented players to the roster. Fancy that!
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Mudfly and I (love ya buddy) went back and forth on this a good bit back in the days of Pettine. To make a long story short, what I hated about O'Neil's system is that it was too complicated for it's own good. Players were complaining that it didn't have anything to do with understanding the concepts, it's that it took the instinct out of the position.
This happens in my world (higher education) A LOT. Very smart people put too much high level thinking into something and forget the basic human element of the whole thing. What it means is that while the policy (or in the football sense the scheme) has merit, the practical use of it is fundamentally flawed. I don't see William's scheme like that though. I think his philosophy is more that you gotta play football, and that means playing outside the traditional role of your position sometimes. As usual, we shall see how it goes though.
It also helps just a little bit if you add far better, faster, more talented players to the roster. Fancy that!
It also helps just a little bit if you add far better, faster, more talented players to the roster. Fancy that!
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong the talent void on that team was marked. But at the same time, dudes like Karlos Dansby and Donte Whitner should not have been struggling like they were. It wasn't just the complicated defense aspect, but it played heavily into the whole (at least in my upmost humble opinion).
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I seem to recall a couple of seasons ago (Pettine/O'Neil), one of the excuses for the Browns futility on the defensive side of the football, was that the schemes were too complicated. Nobody knew precisely where they were supposed to go and it involved a lot of mixing and matching assignments.
That could have just been an excuse because the team sucked. But it was a sentiment often echoed by folks here and "experts" (radio pundits and the such).
I like Williams and his "go fuck 'em up" approach. His attitude is the right one. This thread is not aimed at pissing on him.
But if a group of aging veteran defenders couldn't figure out Jim O'Neil's "system", I fear a far worse situation with a group of rookies and second-year hopefuls deciphering one that seems... almost schizophrenic in (even just) what position one is expected to play from down to down.
Am I the only one hesitant about this? And if I am (and you're comfortable)... What inspires that confidence? What is unique in Williams' approach that makes it more user friendly than what we've seen in the past?
I seem to recall a couple of seasons ago (Pettine/O'Neil), one of the excuses for the Browns futility on the defensive side of the football, was that the schemes were too complicated. Nobody knew precisely where they were supposed to go and it involved a lot of mixing and matching assignments.
That could have just been an excuse because the team sucked. But it was a sentiment often echoed by folks here and "experts" (radio pundits and the such).
I like Williams and his "go fuck 'em up" approach. His attitude is the right one. This thread is not aimed at pissing on him.
But if a group of aging veteran defenders couldn't figure out Jim O'Neil's "system", I fear a far worse situation with a group of rookies and second-year hopefuls deciphering one that seems... almost schizophrenic in (even just) what position one is expected to play from down to down.
Am I the only one hesitant about this? And if I am (and you're comfortable)... What inspires that confidence? What is unique in Williams' approach that makes it more user friendly than what we've seen in the past?
See ball, get ball doesn't sound too complicated for anyone playing with their head up.
Gregg Williams has way more experience as an NFL Defensive Coordinator than Jim O'Neil possessed coming here. He's experienced regime changes and rebuilds as well as has being a DC for 2 different Superbowl teams (TN & NO). O'Neil was in his first DC gig here, which was fine when we surprised everyone with a 7-4 start. However, when we regressed to losing 18 of the next 21 games - there was no way an inexperienced DC was going to keep the veteran/leadership buy-in. You can't regress to that level that abruptly (ie; we went 10-6 in 2007 & fired the GM down to the volunteer water boys after regressing to 5-11 in 2008).
Here's some random things I find interesting tied to Williams as DC:
In 2010, the 2nd year of Malcolm Jenkins' career with the Saints, he was moved from Corner to Free Safety in Gregg Williams' defense. He earned 2nd Team All Pro honors that year. That's an example of a young player/new starter in a new position that learned real fast in his system. Meanwhile DE Will Smith made the Pro Bowl in 2006.
Another young Safety he coached in Washington was Sean Taylor who made Pro Bowls in 2006 and 2007. The Redskins allowed just 19.4 points a game in his time as a DC and his D ranked 6th overall in that period. In 2005, his defense was a big reason Washington made the playoffs for the 1st time since 99.
In TN, he coached up Rookie DE Jevon Kearse to NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year with 14.5 sacks, 8 forced fumbles and 1 TD in 99. He also had a former Ball State Safety named Blaine Bishop make the Pro Bowl twice while he was DC in 1997 and 2000 and 2 other times whiles he was just an Assistant Defensive Coach in 95 & 96.
Even with the Rams in 2016, his defense finished in the top 10 in total defense and pass defense, During his 3 years with the Rams, they had 281 tackles for a loss (2nd most in the NFL). He helped Mark Barron find a perfect niche in his system.
Pertinent to our situation: Safeties always seem to do well in his system while a rookie DE (Kearse) and Will Smith made Pro Bowls. Williams has also successfully transitioned players from 1 position into another under his scheme so you that puts me at ease in terms of it not being too complicated for success.
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One reminder... Pet ran the D his 1st year here and left the O to Young Shanny... then young Shanny left for WSH and Pet moved his focus to the O.
That said...
I've little doubt that Williams' D is every bit as complex as Pet's was. The difference I think we'll see is aggression. As folks have said above Pet's was a read-n-react design; I see Gregg's as an attack-n-react approach.
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All NFL defenses have a degree of complexity. The diffrences are in assignments, alignments and responsibilities.
For example, under Coach Williams I would expect more 1gap along our dline and fewer 'heads up' alignments that 2gap or blended fronts tend to offer.
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The best defence is a good defense
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
DAMN THE TORPEDOES! FULL SPEED AHEAD! -
sssssssssssssssssss
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
Patricia... Matt Patricia... DC for the past few seasons, but he's been on the Pat's staff much longer than that.
If you look at the Belichick era, and especially the last decade, there is consistency on the D side, but less of it than has been displayed by the O side. So the pressure to score that the Pat's O puts on their opponents' has been a big factor.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/
Plus, of course, there's Belichick... Parcel's disciple and his longtime, personal DC before Art gave him his first HC shot...
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles. Or 1. As much as there is an argument over things...I say that the old adage of "Defense wins championships" is only halfway right. Defense can put you in position to be a contender, and mistakes on defense can lose you a championship (see Atlanta Falcons).....but 80-90% of the time you still need that franchise QB. Yes, about 1 in8- 10 years a title can be won on the strength of a defense. (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs, 2005 Steelers, 1985 Bears), but you still need thatreal MAN who puts his hands up someone's butt.
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How do the Patriots do it year after year? Something tells me they bend but don't break. They have Balance on both sides of the ball. What good is a monster defense like the Broncos had last year if you lack an offence(offense)?
I can't remember the Patriots Defensive Coordinator's name but I have noticed he's turned down many head coaching jobs to collect Super Bowl Rings.
What the Browns need is continuity, they need to stop firing everyone after one or two years. We are in a rebuild and must stay the course with Hue, Williams, etc.
In the meantime it would be be extra Nice if Haslam developed a sudden urge to buy a yacht and sail around the world a few times! At least until after the 2018 season.
Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles. Or 1. As much as there is an argument over things...I say that the old adage of "Defense wins championships" is only halfway right. Defense can put you in position to be a contender, and mistakes on defense can lose you a championship (see Atlanta Falcons).....but 80-90% of the time you still need that franchise QB. Yes, about 1 in8- 10 years a title can be won on the strength of a defense. (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs, 2005 Steelers, 1985 Bears), but you still need thatreal MAN who puts his hands up someone's butt.
Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles.
It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
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Belichick is a good defensive coordinator...and would have his team's in contention. But if he did not have Tom Brady he would likely have -0- Super Bowl titles.
It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
It always makes me chuckle to hear how great coaches couldnt have done it w/o their great players.....go figure.....
Where would Walsh be w/o Montana?....or Noll w/o his 15 HOFers?......or Landry w/o Staubach?......or Johnson w/o all his HOFers?.....or Parcells w/o Taylor and Simms?.....or Levy w/o Kelly?.....
Thats how it rolls....great coaches win with great players.....and usually lose w/o em......
Bad coaches dont win with great players.....and always lose w/o em....
Agreed Mudsies! Well said. Just to piggy back here - and some GREAT coaches even start off like the following:
Tom Landry 0-11-1, in 1960
Chuck Noll 1-13, in 1969
Bill Walsh 2-14, in 1979
Bill Parcells 3-12-1, in 1983 (Lawrence Taylor was already there drafted in 1981 or it might have been much worse)
Jimmy Johnson 1-15, in 1989
Bill Belichick 6-10, in 1991
This doesn't pertain to you but how many of our fans wanted the exact same kind of new beginning chaos from the HC fired as early as 2 games into the last preseason.
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