Browns looking at WR trade ?
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Sure, Gip.... Care to put that in a poll?
Put what in a poll?
A. That people agree with you that Favre LOST two Super Bowls?
B. That people agree that Elway outplayed Favre in the SB in which they faced off?
C. That people agree that your arguments about this subject melt away after a bit of scrutiny?
D. That Howard Wilson has the same status as a player on the Browns as Joel Bitonio and Danny Shelton?
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I've never seen the attraction to Farve. That's hardly a secret. I think he's the most overrated QB of the modern era.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I've never seen the attraction to Farve. That's hardly a secret. I think he's the most overrated QB of the modern era.
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Tour & TC,
I admittedly lack your technical expertise, but I AM a lifelong Browns' Fan who has (& continues to) lived through the positives & negatives over the years. It seems to me that Kiser is a hard worker who addresses mistakes as he plays & improves as games go on. He also seems to "self diagnose". That said, he IS a rookie & will suffer growing pains. I just hope that our media & Fans (many of whom are very negative) can be patient. I look forward to continuing posts from both of you (and others) charting Kiser's progress.
I think the kid is a winner!
Mike
I do too. There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game, but even more to be said for understanding when some players just have "it". I'm not sure if it's something I can pick up on because I've picked a few stinkers in my time, but Kizer has always had a certain je ne sais quoi to him that is reminiscent of a lot of very good NFL QB's. It's something I thought I saw in his ND days and with each week I'm growing more and more convinced that he'll be the guy for us for a long time.
I don't think he'll ever be the guy who goes out there and completes 70% of his passes, throws zero picks and completely rips apart the defense pre snap a la Manning, but I think he'll be a guy who can go out there and extend plays, throw balls into seemingly impossible windows, and maybe have a few 400 yard passing games in his career when all is said and done.
There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game...
Speaking of minutiae... was posting my takes in a reddit thread when an impression gelled that's been knocking around in my head. Here's my reply with the impression underlined and the gelled bit underlined and italicized in the next paragraph with the money shot in bold to boot.
In general I think you are giving him way too much credit for surveying the field. Hell... in the 2nd throw to Britt he even glanced Britt's way pre-snap.
Right now Hue's got him reading half the field... and he'll pay a price for that simplification in the regular season, but he'll also have successes.
Normally Kizer looks to at best be executing the predetermined glances away from his primary to delay the Safety(ies) rotation to the play. In a couple instances he may have checked to be sure the Safety had not rotated over to his primary, but I haven't seen a true progression yet. The closest he's come has been in a couple designed rollouts where he's checking high to low between two routes to the Rollout's side.
That said... on a positive note the TB game was the first I've noted him even glancing away from his primary... so that's progress. Executing the glances away is part of the training process. If he glances away, then he has to reacquire his target. If he can reacquire a target, then he can acquire a target.
Anyway that's what I see...
I can't wait until the first time he starts with reading the Safeties at the snap as he drops to determine at which half he is going to look to acquire a target. Then we'll know the training wheels are off and it's Game On!
No knowledge that this is in fact in the QB training manual, but it seems a logical step in teaching a young QB how to play in the NFL.
Going thru the throws in Kizer's TB compiliation,
the glances seemed so perfunctory, just way too fast to gather information, even robotic that there must be a higher purpose... and training is what I came up with...Thoughts?
And here's the link to the reddit thread; https://www.reddit.com/r/Browns/comments/6wvqsb/playbyplay_of_deshone_kizers_week_3_performance/
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
I'd take Favre over Brees and I love Brees. Quite simply, Favre was more clutch
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The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
6 out of 9 of those are probably Hall of Famers.
How many HOFers did he also beat in postseason play.
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The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
I'd take Favre over Brees and I love Brees. Quite simply, Favre was more clutch
Quite simply, Favre was more clutch
If you want to say "I like him" that's fine! Great - you like him, got it.
But "clutch" isn't a metric - it's an emotion.
To say he's "more" than brees...... first, precisely quantify "clutch". Good luck. Hint: Guys paid by ESPN have tried - and failed - to define this concept.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
6 out of 9 of those are probably Hall of Famers.
How many HOFers did he also beat in postseason play.
6 out of 9 of those are probably Hall of Famers.
How many HOFers did he also beat in postseason play.
His playoff wins are a litany of 8-8 guys who had a couple good years except for Young
Erik Kramer
Jeff George
Steve Young [2x] - part of steve's "jinx"
Elvis Grbac
Kerry Collins
Trent Dilfer [while on TB]
Jeff Garcia
Matt Hasselbeck [2x]
Tony Romo
So, 1/9 for names and 2/11 for games were won against HoF QB's.... not impressive.. Romo is by no means a Hall of Famer - Hall of Very Good, sure, but no Canton.
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Favre was a first Ballot Hall of Famer. Anyone want to argue with that fact?
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The opposing QB of Favre's postseason losses wasn't always a Hall Of Famer..
Aikman [1993-1995]
Elway [1997]
Young [1998]
Warner [2001]
Vick [2002]
McNabb [2003]
Culpepper [2004]
E.Manning [2007]
Brees [2009]
Would I want him on my team.. over who, exactly? Over any other hall-of-fame QB? Over Kizer? I'll take Drew Brees over Favre 8 days a week..
I'd take Favre over Brees and I love Brees. Quite simply, Favre was more clutch
I'd take Favre over Brees and I love Brees. Quite simply, Favre was more clutch
I have trouble giving points for "clutch" when a QB contributes significantly to the deficit he overcomes.
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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20510821/seattle-seahawks-trying-trade-wr-jermaine-kearse
The Seattle Seahawks are trying to trade wide receiver Jermaine Kearse, sources told ESPN's Dianna Russini.
Kearse is set to make $2.2 million in base salary in 2017 as part of the three-year, $13.5 million deal he signed in March 2016.
He's cheap, has good vet experience at the position and is a solid deep threat. I'd take a flyer on him. He's not only a Superbowl experienced WR but he's a tremendous blocker as well. Maybe we can send the Seahawks our newly added 5th rounder for him.
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Favre was a first Ballot Hall of Famer. Anyone want to argue with that fact?
Favre was a first Ballot Hall of Famer. Anyone want to argue with that fact?
Can't argue with that he is in. The merits of his selection? Absolutely...
Good to know you'll defend every Steeler selection... past and future...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Favre was a first Ballot Hall of Famer. Anyone want to argue with that fact?
Can't argue with that he is in. The merits of his selection? Absolutely...
Good to know you'll defend every Steeler selection... past and future...
Can't argue with that he is in. The merits of his selection? Absolutely...
Good to know you'll defend every Steeler selection... past and future...
Looking at each individual Steeler that is in....I don't really have a problem with any except perhaps one: Lynn Swann. He is in I guess on the basis of his performance in making acrobatic catches, especially in one Super Bowl game. His overall numbers are not really that impressive. And I guess, perhaps its not that I object so much to him being in....its that others of equal or better numbers are not. Take Gary Collins. About the same number of career catches. More TDs. And he certainly came up big, big, big in the biggest game with his 3 TDs in the 1964 Championship game. I just think Collins was a better player...and also a champion. I guess the fact that he didn't have 4 made the difference.
And there ARE some future Steeler players that will be getting into the HOF...that I cannot argue with: Alan Faneca will. Ben R. will. And while it is early, I would say that basically Antonio Brown will be a better HOF candidate than Hines Ward.
As far as Favre...you cannot argue with his career numbers. Between he and Brady and Manning they will likely share all the major QB stat records.
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There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game...
Speaking of minutiae... was posting my takes in a reddit thread when an impression gelled that's been knocking around in my head. Here's my reply with the impression underlined and the gelled bit underlined and italicized in the next paragraph with the money shot in bold to boot.
In general I think you are giving him way too much credit for surveying the field. Hell... in the 2nd throw to Britt he even glanced Britt's way pre-snap.
Right now Hue's got him reading half the field... and he'll pay a price for that simplification in the regular season, but he'll also have successes.
Normally Kizer looks to at best be executing the predetermined glances away from his primary to delay the Safety(ies) rotation to the play. In a couple instances he may have checked to be sure the Safety had not rotated over to his primary, but I haven't seen a true progression yet. The closest he's come has been in a couple designed rollouts where he's checking high to low between two routes to the Rollout's side.
That said... on a positive note the TB game was the first I've noted him even glancing away from his primary... so that's progress. Executing the glances away is part of the training process. If he glances away, then he has to reacquire his target. If he can reacquire a target, then he can acquire a target.
Anyway that's what I see...
I can't wait until the first time he starts with reading the Safeties at the snap as he drops to determine at which half he is going to look to acquire a target. Then we'll know the training wheels are off and it's Game On!
No knowledge that this is in fact in the QB training manual, but it seems a logical step in teaching a young QB how to play in the NFL.
Going thru the throws in Kizer's TB compiliation,
the glances seemed so perfunctory, just way too fast to gather information, even robotic that there must be a higher purpose... and training is what I came up with...Thoughts?
And here's the link to the reddit thread; https://www.reddit.com/r/Browns/comments/6wvqsb/playbyplay_of_deshone_kizers_week_3_performance/
Speaking of minutiae... was posting my takes in a reddit thread when an impression gelled that's been knocking around in my head. Here's my reply with the impression underlined and the gelled bit underlined and italicized in the next paragraph with the money shot in bold to boot.
No knowledge that this is in fact in the QB training manual, but it seems a logical step in teaching a young QB how to play in the NFL.
Going thru the throws in Kizer's TB compiliation,
the glances seemed so perfunctory, just way too fast to gather information, even robotic that there must be a higher purpose... and training is what I came up with...Thoughts?
And here's the link to the reddit thread; https://www.reddit.com/r/Browns/comments/6wvqsb/playbyplay_of_deshone_kizers_week_3_performance/
It makes sense. Kizer is not at a level where he can read defenses as a whole, hence the simplified route combinations and heavy utilization of screens. Hue is bringing him along slowly and giving him a predesignated read but instructing him to look off the read and reacquire it would fall in line with the "slow development" aspect.
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I just find it odd that you hope that Kizer doesn't turn out like Favre, a first ballot hall of famer. Favre definitely had his bad moments, but he usually had his teams competing at a very high level. There was a lot of weight on his shoulders. He would try to force things too much, but he also scored a lot of points when other qb's wouldn't have been able to.
I don't think I have seen any of the rookie qb's make any additional reads post snap with the exception of tossing it to the rb in the flat. I think a lot of fans get irritated with the backup qb not getting bumped up, but it is obvious how much of a simplified system they are running. We (broncos fans) are irritated because Lynch still isn't doing that either, and the results aren't quite the same when you are playing the against the ones and a game plan.
Interested to see how this year turns out for you. Your defense looks light-years improved from last year. Would like to see you get a little more push up the middle but other than that your d looks legit.
Landry, that would be a shocker. Kind of hard guy to trade for right now with the domestic violence hanging overhead unless you get him on the cheap. Patriots gave up a first for Brandon Cooks. I would think his price would be similar.
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I just find it odd that you hope that Kizer doesn't turn out like Favre, a first ballot hall of famer. Favre definitely had his bad moments, but he usually had his teams competing at a very high level. There was a lot of weight on his shoulders. He would try to force things too much, but he also scored a lot of points when other qb's wouldn't have been able to.
I don't think I have seen any of the rookie qb's make any additional reads post snap with the exception of tossing it to the rb in the flat. I think a lot of fans get irritated with the backup qb not getting bumped up, but it is obvious how much of a simplified system they are running. We (broncos fans) are irritated because Lynch still isn't doing that either, and the results aren't quite the same when you are playing the against the ones and a game plan.
Interested to see how this year turns out for you. Your defense looks light-years improved from last year. Would like to see you get a little more push up the middle but other than that your d looks legit.
Landry, that would be a shocker. Kind of hard guy to trade for right now with the domestic violence hanging overhead unless you get him on the cheap. Patriots gave up a first for Brandon Cooks. I would think his price would be similar.
I just find it odd that you hope that Kizer doesn't turn out like Favre, a first ballot hall of famer. Favre definitely had his bad moments, but he usually had his teams competing at a very high level. There was a lot of weight on his shoulders. He would try to force things too much, but he also scored a lot of points when other qb's wouldn't have been able to.
I've never claimed to be mainstream...
... but my take is just the opposite. I saw a lot of high-level Packer teams in the Favre era that fell short because they had a QB that could not control his own game and snatched as many defeats from the jaws of victory than vice versa.
Contrast Brett with Rodgers... Rodgers has as much talent, but tons more judgement than Favre ever had. I am cool with Kizer becoming future, first-balloter Aaron Rodgers.
We (broncos fans) are irritated because Lynch still isn't doing that either, and the results aren't quite the same when you are playing the against the ones and a game plan.
I've seen nothing in Lynch, which short-term is fine because of Siemian, who I think is a competent placeholder. I'll be surprised if by 2018 Kelly is not your starter and the consensus best Mr. Irrelevant ever.
If Osweiler was transported back to Denver, do you think he'd beat out Siemian?
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I just find it odd that you hope that Kizer doesn't turn out like Favre, a first ballot hall of famer. Favre definitely had his bad moments, but he usually had his teams competing at a very high level. There was a lot of weight on his shoulders. He would try to force things too much, but he also scored a lot of points when other qb's wouldn't have been able to.
I've never claimed to be mainstream...
... but my take is just the opposite. I saw a lot of high-level Packer teams in the Favre era that fell short because they had a QB that could not control his own game and snatched as many defeats from the jaws of victory than vice versa.
Contrast Brett with Rodgers... Rodgers has as much talent, but tons more judgement than Favre ever had. I am cool with Kizer becoming future, first-balloter Aaron Rodgers.
We (broncos fans) are irritated because Lynch still isn't doing that either, and the results aren't quite the same when you are playing the against the ones and a game plan.
I've seen nothing in Lynch, which short-term is fine because of Siemian, who I think is a competent placeholder. I'll be surprised if by 2018 Kelly is not your starter and the consensus best Mr. Irrelevant ever.
If Osweiler was transported back to Denver, do you think he'd beat out Siemian?
I've seen nothing in Lynch, which short-term is fine because of Siemian, who I think is a competent placeholder. I'll be surprised if by 2018 Kelly is not your starter and the consensus best Mr. Irrelevant ever.
If Osweiler was transported back to Denver, do you think he'd beat out Siemian?
Yeah, most fans have been a little bummed that we haven't gotten to see Kelly yet, and a lot think he will beat out TS next year.
It has been discussed, but not to be our starter, but our backup. Most prefer Sloter in that discussion. With a coin flip on who we could care less about between BO and Lynch. BO just reminds me of a less accurate Kyle Orton. Boring to watch, no intangibles, and has a hard time consistently moving the chains. So that would be a big NO on beating on TS. I am not sure who BO could beat out around the league at this point. And whoever you mention, I couldn't see his odds being better than a coin flip. That would be a depressing qb battle. No offense to you guys as at least you had a rookie in the wings.
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Quite simply, Favre was more clutch
If you want to say "I like him" that's fine! Great - you like him, got it.
But "clutch" isn't a metric - it's an emotion.
To say he's "more" than brees...... first, precisely quantify "clutch". Good luck. Hint: Guys paid by ESPN have tried - and failed - to define this concept.
If you want to say "I like him" that's fine! Great - you like him, got it.
But "clutch" isn't a metric - it's an emotion.
To say he's "more" than brees...... first, precisely quantify "clutch". Good luck. Hint: Guys paid by ESPN have tried - and failed - to define this concept.
clutch - denoting or occurring in a critical situation in which the outcome of a game or competition is at stake.
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