***Official Browns Vs. N.Y. Jets Game Day Thread***

MLD Woody

@mudfly said:

I always kinda liked Peppers(cept when he struts like a peaSock)...anyhow, I only comment and pick on him because I like to make woody squeal like a girl////

(works EVERY time)....hahahaha

If you call correcting people "squeeling like a girl", then more power to you. I mean, I'd prefer to be on the side that isn't incorrect or completely biased, but to each his own.

You could come on here and say 2+2=5. I'd say no, it is 4. And you can call that a win too if you'd like

MLD Woody

@unsympathetic said:

And if they do anything with that first pick other than just turn in Darnold and ignore the offers, god help us all

Screw that. I'd rather trade back slightly to some QB needy team and make out like bank robbers.

1) We actually have some young QB talent

2) There are a ton of QBs in the upcoming draft

3) We need to fill a lot of holes still. Give me 3 high picks instead of 1 on a QB with all of the pressure in the world on him.

Dutch Oven

@mld-woody said:

Screw that. I'd rather trade back slightly to some QB needy team and make out like bank robbers.

1) We actually have some young QB talent

2) There are a ton of QBs in the upcoming draft

3) We need to fill a lot of holes still. Give me 3 high picks instead of 1 on a QB with all of the pressure in the world on him.

What upcoming draft? NEXT YEAR?

Kizer? Hogan? You're going to bank on these two guys?

The Browns already have FIVE picks in the first two rounds, how many more picks do they need? Jesus, stop being cute and just take the QB STARING YOU RIGHT IN YOUR Shmucking FACE.

stillmotion

@dutch-oven said:

The only other 0-5 teams are San Fran and the NY Giants. I'd be shocked if the Giants didn't win at least 4 games, even as crappy as their season is going.

San Fran is good competition for the #1, but I think they can win 2 or 3. I seriously think this Browns team is going to threaten 0-16 again.

San Fran wins 3 and the Giants win 5. We might beat the bears. But if Hue keeps Kizer starting all season, I can see us at 0-16

hoorta

@mudfly said:

yep....Hues stupidity just cost us another game

Hue didn't shank those FGs. to his credit- he did start Hogan after Kizer stunk up the joint...

@mld-woody said:

We're not getting rid of Hue guys

I'm not so sure of that anymore...

@mudfly said:

I have Hue starting Kizer.....OR.....making some excuses for him, then a mystery injury pops up during the week.....next week both him and Britt get migraines and twisted ankles

After Earthmover RG III, and Just trust me Kizer, Hue's going down with the Good Ship Kizer. Three strikes and you're out.

@d-bone said:

I hoped that Peppers would be like ERock (Eric Turner for some of you younger dudes) and make an immediate impact from opening day, but so far, that hasn't been the case...... and that's being very kind.

You can't make an impact playing on the warning track, as was pointed out elsewhere.

hoorta

@mjp28 said:

REMAINING SCHEDULE, plug in your own projections......

6   Oct 15   CLE @ HOU   NRG Stadium   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
7   Oct 22   TEN @ CLE   FirstEnergy Stadium   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
8   Oct 29   MIN @ CLE   Twickenham Stadium   9:30 AM   Tickets   NFLN
9   Bye
10   Nov 12   CLE @ DET   Ford Field   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
11   Nov 19   JAX @ CLE   FirstEnergy Stadium   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
12   Nov 26   CLE @ CIN   Paul Brown Stadium   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
13   Dec 03   CLE @ LAC   StubHub Center   4:05 PM   Tickets   CBS
14   Dec 10   GB @ CLE   FirstEnergy Stadium   1:00 PM   Tickets   FOX
15   Dec 17   BAL @ CLE   FirstEnergy Stadium   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
16   Dec 24   CLE @ CHI   Soldier Field   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS
17   Dec 31   CLE @ PIT   Heinz Field   1:00 PM   Tickets   CBS

Could well be another 1-15. Don't often agree with Grossi, but I'll accept his take- this team is coming apart. 0-8 at the bye, and fair chance Hue is bye-bye, Williams promoted to HC. Especially if the stubborn goober sticks to his guns and keeps on taking losses with his pet project Kizer.

miktoxic

@mld-woody said:

Screw that. I'd rather trade back slightly to some QB needy team and make out like bank robbers.

1) We actually have some young QB talent

2) There are a ton of QBs in the upcoming draft

3) We need to fill a lot of holes still. Give me 3 high picks instead of 1 on a QB with all of the pressure in the world on him.

haven't we heard that every year for the past 10 years?

hoorta

@mld-woody said:

Screw that. I'd rather trade back slightly to some QB needy team and make out like bank robbers.

1) We actually have some young QB talent

2) There are a ton of QBs in the upcoming draft

3) We need to fill a lot of holes still. Give me 3 high picks instead of 1 on a QB with all of the pressure in the world on him.

Then we sit where we are and take the QB of our choice. We already have two firsts (one guaranteed to be top 10 at this rate), and three seconds. How many do you think we need? Our record over the last three seasons has been historically bad. You just cant keep kicking the can down the road amassing future assets.

Looks like we gave the Eagles their franchise qb, we went shopping in the bargain bin again, and got a mouldy Kizer Roll.

jiggins7919

Ya know, I predicted a Browns victory and I'm sorry. It was stupid and naive, and I should've known. The upsetting aspect of my prediction was I basically correct about virtually everything except the score. I knew our defense would shut them down. I felt good about what Duke and Crow would provide, and I said we'd get our TE's involved more and we'd have enough offense to win the game. I was basically right about every single aspect of the game...except the most important thing...the score.

While it's frustrating and enraging to lose this game, the loss has a darker feel to it because we fans know what it means. We've felt this situation too many times before, and we now know what is coming...another rebuild. Despite what Jimmy Haslam has said, this entire regime is completely toast. From the head coach to our front office, they're all gone. It's another week of watching Deshaun Watson light up the stat sheet, it's another week of seeing Carson Wentz win a game and play well, it's another week of our QB looking mentally handicapped and turning the ball over like a moron. An absolute moron. I can't even bring myself to say his name. I don't want to hear anything about how young he is, how he needs time, or how he doesn't have weapons to throw to. I've made all these excuses for him myself, as recently as last week, and I won't do it anymore. I've completely changed my mind, and no... I am not making a rash decision. Kizer cannot quickly read the field and decisively deliver the ball accurately to the correct person. He can't. He missed multiple touchdown passes because he didn't see them.

Hue Jackson is BEGGING to be fired. We're at the 3 yard line, it's 2nd down, and we don't try to run it in. The option play was a stupid gimmick with a high chance of turnover. Going for it on 4th down wasn't smart, but it can be defended. However, the PLAY CALL can't be defended. The kicker was lined up and ready to go, but Hue SPRINTS down the field and calls a timeout. Why not tie it up and give the kid some confidence? How demoralizing was that to our struggling kicker? But ok...we're going for it. Surely Hue has an AMAZING play ready to go, right? He's seen something on tape that shows a weakness, something the Jets are giving away, something really, REALLY good, RIGHT? Hahaha, WRONG. "OK, OK....I got it guys! They'll never see this coming! You guys ready? OK...we're going to RUN IT UP THE MIDDLE!"

Nah nah nah nah....NAH NAH NAH NAH...hey hey hey....GOODBYE!

WHO DOESN'T TIE THE GAME UP AT HOME WITH 11 MINUTES TO GO IN THE GAME?! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

TexasAg1969

@jiggins7919 said:

Ya know, I predicted a Browns victory and I'm sorry. It was stupid and naive, and I should've known. The upsetting aspect of my prediction was I basically correct about virtually everything except the score. I knew our defense would shut them down. I felt good about what Duke and Crow would provide, and I said we'd get our TE's involved more and we'd have enough offense to win the game. I was basically right about every single aspect of the game...except the most important thing...the score.

While it's frustrating and enraging to lose this game, the loss has a darker feel to it because we fans know what it means. We've felt this situation too many times before, and we now know what is coming...another rebuild. Despite what Jimmy Haslam has said, this entire regime is completely toast. From the head coach to our front office, they're all gone. It's another week of watching Deshaun Watson light up the stat sheet, it's another week of seeing Carson Wentz win a game and play well, it's another week of our QB looking mentally handicapped and turning the ball over like a moron. An absolute moron. I can't even bring myself to say his name. I don't want to hear anything about how young he is, how he needs time, or how he doesn't have weapons to throw to. I've made all these excuses for him myself, as recently as last week, and I won't do it anymore. I've completely changed my mind, and no... I am not making a rash decision. Kizer cannot quickly read the field and decisively deliver the ball accurately to the correct person. He can't. He missed multiple touchdown passes because he didn't see them.

Hue Jackson is BEGGING to be fired. We're at the 3 yard line, it's 2nd down, and we don't try to run it in. The option play was a stupid gimmick with a high chance of turnover. Going for it on 4th down wasn't smart, but it can be defended. However, the PLAY CALL can't be defended. The kicker was lined up and ready to go, but Hue SPRINTS down the field and calls a timeout. Why not tie it up and give the kid some confidence? How demoralizing was that to our struggling kicker? But ok...we're going for it. Surely Hue has an AMAZING play ready to go, right? He's seen something on tape that shows a weakness, something the Jets are giving away, something really, REALLY good, RIGHT? Hahaha, WRONG. "OK, OK....I got it guys! They'll never see this coming! You guys ready? OK...we're going to RUN IT UP THE MIDDLE!"

Nah nah nah nah....NAH NAH NAH NAH...hey hey hey....GOODBYE!

WHO DOESN'T TIE THE GAME UP AT HOME WITH 11 MINUTES TO GO IN THE GAME?! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

And Bingo the Wonder Dog chooses you! Chicken dinner coming right up. We have a winner!!!!!

mjp28

@hoorta said:

Then we sit where we are and take the QB of our choice. We already have two firsts (one guaranteed to be top 10 at this rate), and three seconds. How many do you think we need? Our record over the last three seasons has been historically bad. You just cant keep kicking the can down the road amassing future assets.

Looks like we gave the Eagles their franchise qb, we went shopping in the bargain bin again, and got a mouldy Kizer Roll.

You would think that the BROWNS.inc. would be good at this by now drafting high every year.......but if you remember back they got B+ and A grades on the last draft. Another 1-15 or worse yet an 0-Fer and more former loyal Browns fans might say screw it and leave maybe go fishing on Sundays

Oh the Indians have figured it out same with the Cavaliers same small market, hmmmmm.

......edit add, and the Boardman/Poland and south have been blocking out the Browns for the steelrz every Sunday now.

jiggins7919

What I don't really know, and I guess nobody really CAN, is whether or not we should keep Kizer as the starter? I mean, Jared Goff looked awful last year, right? I really go back and forth because we NEED stability at the QB position, but should Kizer display more growth at this time? That interception in the end zone was beyond awful. I don't get why these plays don't work for us. I saw Dallas run a very similar play, and Beasley was open, caught it, and scored. Shouldn't it be THAT simple? And what about that play on the goal line before the ridiculous option fumble. If Kizer hits Crow in the flat INSTANTLY, he probably scores easily. But he waits and throws a terrible pass, that even if caught, wouldn't have gotten the TD. How does Kizer not immediately throw it to Crow? Isn't this the kind of stuff they practice? When Hue radios the play to Kizer's helmet, can't he TELL HIM where his first read is? "Ok Deshone, we want to get it to Crow in the flat. It's bang bang, so hit him early, ok?" Doesn't that conversation happen? Maybe that wasn't the primary read, and that was the safety valve, but man...it's uncanny how many times Kizer misses the correct read, and the announcers are REALLY calling him out about it. The one where he didn't see a wide open Njoku was devastating. That's a situation where we have one of our young playmakers, wide open in the end zone, for a potential touchdown...and it wouldn't have been a difficult throw at all.

Now, the conversation that is GOING to happen is whether or not Kevin Hogan can be more than a backup QB. The Jets made an amazing play on that interception, but Hogan made the correct read. He didn't have time to make the throw accurately, but the guy was open. What really hurts about that play is our wide receiver needs to turn into the defender right there. I realize that's not his job, but if the ball can't be caught, he needs to do EVERYTHING in his power to ensure nobody gets it. That's asking a lot, but it's something you hear about from time to time.

Hue was asked about his playcalling duties, and whether or not he would hire someone if they were better. He said he'd be more than happy to bring somebody in if they were more capable than him, and then he said the offense was moving the ball up and down the field, and that doesn't happen unless the guy calling the plays knows what he's doing. That might be true, but Hue Jackson can't call RED ZONE plays, and it's been a problem for going on two years. It was a problem last year, it's been an issue THIS year, and yesterday was the worst example of his deficiencies. He calls a terrific game, all game, until the ball gets close to the end zone. How is that possible? Does he panic? Does he just not understand what his team can do, or what the right thing is? It's baffling. Think about our lack of playmakers, our inexperience at WR, and look at how we marched the ball up and down the field yesterday. That doesn't happen unless a coach knows how to call plays, but how the HECK does he lose his brain inside the 10 yard line SO OFTEN? It literally doesn't add up!

TexasAg1969

@jiggins7919 said:

Hue was asked about his playcalling duties, and whether or not he would hire someone if they were better. He said he'd be more than happy to bring somebody in if they were more capable than him, and then he said the offense was moving the ball up and down the field, and that doesn't happen unless the guy calling the plays knows what he's doing. That might be true, but Hue Jackson can't call RED ZONE plays, and it's been a problem for going on two years. It was a problem last year, it's been an issue THIS year, and yesterday was the worst example of his deficiencies. He calls a terrific game, all game, until the ball gets close to the end zone. How is that possible? Does he panic? Does he just not understand what his team can do, or what the right thing is? It's baffling. Think about our lack of playmakers, our inexperience at WR, and look at how we marched the ball up and down the field yesterday. That doesn't happen unless a coach knows how to call plays, but how the HECK does he lose his brain inside the 10 yard line SO OFTEN? It literally doesn't add up!

He needs to get with his players and his O coaches and work this out far in advance of game day. He goes into brain freeze the closer they get to the goalline. Someone has to become the OC whisperer in his ear and remind him what they are doing on the plan the closer they get to scoring. AND no TOs early on dammit!!

Tour2ma

@d-bone said:

I hoped that Peppers would be like ERock (Eric Turner for some of you younger dudes) and make an immediate impact from opening day, but so far, that hasn't been the case...... and that's being very kind.

I don't recall any hits by Peppers that would conjure up memories of Turner. Doesn't make him a bad choice... especially since you can't ERock anyone anymore.

@dutch-oven said:

I'm not writing Peppers off, not at all, but... The concern with Peppers is that he kind of falls into the category of "Jack of all trades, master of none".

@orion said:

I keep saying that Peppers was a player that played close to the LOS. So we play him on the warning track. Doesn't make sense to me.....

Does anyone doubt that Peppers was drafted to play the role he played at Blue for Williams? Turned out he was the only healthy candidate for centerfield. That's not "misuse" in my book, at least not purposeful misuse, just best use as dictated by team need.

@dutch-oven said:

San Fran is good competition for the #1, but I think they can win 2 or 3.

Agree... as I have for some time. And as I've said for some time, given the 49ers palpable lust for Cousins, it is good that they are a contender for #1 overall.

They do face the Giants and Bears down the road... should compete in those games. Also possible they can make a stand against a division opponent, but even late those games should mean a lot more to LAR or SEA or AZ, than they do SF. Two feels about right.

@clevfan4life said:

He's officially tanking. Im serios when insay he's tanking draft stock right now to avoid the #1 pick

If true, and I doubt it is, then that alone would be reason to avoid taking Darnold... unless there is now an "I" in "team".

gumby73

@tour2ma said:

... unless there is now an "I" in "team".

"am"...and teams that have them..Look at the W-L record & falling...newsflash..Damn is Aaron Rogers good & a breath of fresh air if Browns ever figure it out..Team!

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:

I

Does anyone doubt that Peppers was drafted to play the role he played at Blue for Williams? Turned out he was the only healthy candidate for centerfield. That's not "misuse" in my book, at least not purposeful misuse, just best use as dictated by team need.

But here's my beef Tour....either we are committed to developing players or we are committed to trying to win now.....and the Browns are doing a little dance between the 2....

If we are committed to developing these guys and the wins dont really matter, then why waste a year of development playing a(#1 draft pick) guy like Peppers out of position???......did they not see this coming before they drafted him?(the need for a center fielder)??.....you KNOW we did.....Did the same with Schobert......and are playing Campbell at FS too(clearly a ss).....

Or....if we truly are making these choices based only upon trying to win....why ram Kizer out there when he clearly isnt ready? Or spend a year watching Erving Sheet the bed? Or refusing to adjust schemes to fit your players like Crow/Kizer/etc? Scrambling to get Collins in the middle of a season, because...uh oh....we dont have any LB's....and our freshly drafted DE didnt look good there....

I swear.....It really doesnt feel like they've thought any of this stuff through....feels very haphazard....unplanned.....and not a good environment for developing long term quality players, when you draft a guy(high) then aren't sure what you're gonna do with him....

and it feels like it keeps happening.....

why did we draft Kessler in the 3rd again?.....to develop as a starter or be our back up?.....cause neither of those things has happened.....

Tour2ma

@jiggins7919 said:

While it's frustrating and enraging to lose this game, the loss has a darker feel to it because we fans know what it means. We've felt this situation too many times before, and we now know what is coming...another rebuild. Despite what Jimmy Haslam has said, this entire regime is completely toast. From the head coach to our front office, they're all gone.

No... Jimmah made a deal at the beginning of this experiment that he will honor.

@jiggins7919 said:

What I don't really know, and I guess nobody really CAN, is whether or not we should keep Kizer as the starter?

should Kizer display more growth at this time?

I saw Dallas run a very similar play, and Beasley was open, caught it, and scored. Shouldn't it be THAT simple?

How does Kizer not immediately throw it to Crow? Isn't this the kind of stuff they practice? When Hue radios the play to Kizer's helmet, can't he TELL HIM where his first read is?

Doesn't that conversation happen?

... but Hue Jackson can't call RED ZONE plays, and it's been a problem for going on two years. It was a problem last year, it's been an issue THIS year, and yesterday was the worst example of his deficiencies. He calls a terrific game, all game, until the ball gets close to the end zone. How is that possible? Does he panic? Does he just not understand what his team can do, or what the right thing is?

I'll take a shot in case they weren't all rhetorical questions, although given your football acumen odds are they were...

For now, yes, Kizer remains the starter. And he does until you are dead sure he is incapable of being "the one".
Yes and no... "No" because he has shown some growth. He is reading progressions better. He is finding the right option more often and he is seeing the defender's relationship to the target better. "Yes" because his progression speed should be increasing plus his lack of touch has become more noticeable. QBs usually come equipped with more than Kizer is showing.
Yes, it should. That it should be is why the play call cannot be blamed as you did above. The simple fact is that the compressed field that is the redzone, is an area in which Kizer has not spent a lot of game time... Prescott has.
Last part first... no, Hue can't because Hue cannot be sure how the opposing D will line up pre-snap let alone what they will do at and after the snap. And it is the defensive read that determines who is "the primary" in any given play. Middle part... yes... practice on the field, go over in the QB room, the WR room, the RB room, and in their combined room. First part... because he's a rookie... a rookie with very little redzone experience who still has to think his way thru the process, not instinctively know where to go.
Yes... in practice.
Hue's not calling plays he has not seen work in practice and as I've said elsewhere both of the option left and the rollout right, I do not see them as bad calls. They were simply bad execution in a game situation... a low experience game situation. Just as the play between the 20's was better today, so should the redzone play be in time.

Good questions... and even if the answers were not needed, they helped me coalesce my thoughts.

Browns1216

having a dedicated OC would do wonders for this team, Hue just can't handle it. Bring in Bernie Kosar!

Tour2ma

@mudfly said:

But here's my beef Tour....either we are committed to developing players or we are committed to trying to win now.....and the Browns are doing a little dance between the 2....

If we are committed to developing these guys and the wins dont really matter, then why waste a year of development playing a(#1 draft pick) guy like Peppers out of position???......did they not see this coming before they drafted him?(the need for a center fielder)??.....you KNOW we did.....Did the same with Schobert......and are playing Campbell at FS too(clearly a ss).....

Or....if we truly are making these choices based only upon trying to win....why ram Kizer out there when he clearly isnt ready? Or spend a year watching Erving Sheet the bed? Or refusing to adjust schemes to fit your players like Crow/Kizer/etc? Scrambling to get Collins in the middle of a season, because...uh oh....we dont have any LB's....and our freshly drafted DE didnt look good there....

I swear.....It really doesnt feel like they've thought any of this stuff through....feels very haphazard....unplanned.....and not a good environment for developing long term quality players, when you draft a guy(high) then aren't sure what you're gonna do with him....

and it feels like it keeps happening.....

why did we draft Kessler in the 3rd again?.....to develop as a starter or be our back up?.....cause neither of those things has happened.....

All good questions...

On Williams use of Peppers vs. Hue's use of Kizer... different approaches by autonomous Coordinators. Best answer I can come up with. What rostered FS candidate do we have that is a better athlete than Peppers? Could we have drafted a better candidate? Hell, yes... maybe as many as five different ones by my count. I mocked one of them in about every draft I did. Turns out our FO's evaluations and/or priorities, a/k/a "big boards", were different than mine... and yours.

Kizer is a special case aided by the failure of those he was supposed to sit behind to out audition him. Now the die is cast and we have to know. It's that simple. And here is a key I hadn't flashed to at this point... the answer that emerges through the season not only dictates the action we take, but also provides the capital to make that action a reality. In other words if Kizer fails his way all the way through the season, then we end up able to pick his replacement. If on the other hand he starts to "feel it" or "get it' ultimately leading us to wins that are "QB pick of the litter" disqualifying, then we don't care.

It's a win-win, that may require a helluva lot of losing in the process.

Collins was a piece at which we leapt and locked in. I'm not regretting that move. Are you?

I do fail to see what Erving has to do with anything. More so since we had no choice but to play him last season due to injuries to Bito and Greco. It was good to see old Cam last nite... I was literally laughing out loud at his continuing ineptitude... and harder at Collinsworth's determination to praise any hint of mediocrity. And I'm saying that as one who generally likes Chris' work.

On "the plan"... we differ on what calendar year of the rebuild we are in with me favoring the Julian and you the Hebrew??? So I can't really help you there except to say that not every hole is plugged year one. So if you use my calendar...

Peppers... I've bought swiss army knives not knowing for what I was going to use it.

Kessler... he was a shot. A group consensus pick QB I am sure we thought we stole at the time. Were the 2016 QB class in the upcoming draft, I doubt we'd make the same choice. And I say that ignoring Goff, Wentz and the rest of the class. I think having seen two years of Hue's Offense that our scouting department would agree that Kess fits the QB needs of Hue's Offense.

hoorta

@tour2ma said:

All good questions...

Kizer is a special case aided by the failure of those he was supposed to sit behind to out audition him. Now the die is cast and we have to know. It's that simple. And here is a key I hadn't flashed to at this point... the answer that emerges through the season not only dictates the action we take, but also provides the capital to make that action a reality. In other words if Kizer fails his way all the way through the season, then we end up able to pick his replacement. If on the other hand he starts to "feel it" or "get it' ultimately leading us to wins that are "QB pick of the litter" disqualifying, then we don't care.

It's a win-win, that may require a helluva lot of losing in the process.

Tour- my beef is Kizer has shown me nothing so far to make me believe he's anything other than a younger and smarter version of Brandon Weeden. We're not going to need to go 1-15 to get the #1 overall pick to get our QBOTF in 2018 if Deshone flops- we have enough draft capital to move up there anyway, unless one of the prospects emerges as Andrew Luck good. Hmmmm.... Carson Wentz @ #2? How many great qbs came out of that Elway draft?

I think you know how Mud & me feel. It's not going to stunt Kizer's development to sit out a couple games and process what he's learned. I don't know what your beef is about Hogan- he's got a decent enough arm, certainly more accurate, plenty mobile, and is a couple beats faster in making decisions. This fan base is absolutely sick of losing game, after game, after game- and looking bad doing so. PD poll as of last night had 92% of the fans wanting to see more of Hogan. Ignore that factoid at your own risk Hue. I don't think you need to have a 100% certainty that Deshone is (or is not) "the guy" for 16 games to give Hogan a fair shot. IMHO, he's earned it. Seems to me if Kizer was handed the job because of preseason- as Mud so well pointed out, this isn't a static picture by a long shot. Kizer has seriously regressed, and Hogan has drastically improved.

PS regarding Hogan's throws needing circus catches- LOL, at least they're within range for his receivers to MAKE circus catches. I've already tired of seeing Kizer air mail balls 5 feet over our guy's heads, or a similar distance in front or behind them.