More Peyton Manning speculation
-
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
-
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
This. Can't stand the mofo (Peyton, not crooked Jimmy) but he ought to know a thing or two about signalcallers.
-
I can see Manning texting the sideline now... in game...
He's not what?
He doesn’t pick football talent.
Itd be nice if people would actually read Tour’s many posts on the subject.
Ding ding ding... sometimes reading the bit I quote gives a clue. I even try to edit the quotes to make it clearer.
Thanks, war, but if my edited quotes aren't read, not sure why I waste time making long posts... but once more into the breach...
That's what I was wondering. Maybe he's just mad I don't share his devotion to Sashi and Kizer.
But just in case Sashi really isn't controlling anything then I wish they'd replace whoever is.
Nah... not mad... frustrated...
See below for Sashi's areas of control.
As for replacing folks... you'll get your wish, you simply won't know the names cut loose or likely their replacements as they'll be scouts... and geeks... and assistant coaches. Truning over the "talent" in all these jobs based upon their contributions... or lack thereof... to the process is part of the process. It's no different than the 53-man roster plus PS in that regard. And it's at least as important as continually upgrading the 53+.
I suppose you believe there's a reason I should take his word, or his opinion, over most of the sports radio guys I listen to on a regular basis (who have certainly been known to make stuff up or be off the mark on occasion). Seems like the draft is like an episode of Pawn Stars where we trade and wheel and deal until we find some guys that may or may not turn out to be Diamonds in the Rough. So it's not Sashi Brown that mines for these gems and decides which veterans have no value? Then who's at the helm of Good Ship Barter? By the way whoever the hell it is (and from here I don't see a seasoned football professional in the office anywhere) has done worse than anyone else in the history of the sport at least so far.
First, your ending assessment is not even close to the objective truth... it's simply not... IF you look beyond 1-21. It's not easy to do... I get that... but when folks do they find:
- a treasure trove of Draft capital and...
- an increase in rostered talent... everywhere except three Offensive skill positions: QB, RB, and WR.
Stay tuned for that third year you claim, despite every post you make, to be allowing this FO to have. I believe all three will be addressed. Successfully? Three for three successfully? No idea... no guarantees... but I like our odds.
As for taking my word over your radio talking heads... nah... not "over". Despite my persistence I don't seek blind faith in the "gospel according to Tour." What I do seek is some sign of acknowledgement that I am not simply talking out of my a$$ here... that I am not making sh!t up. That readers of my posts simply allow for the possibility that I might be correct. I LIVED the role that I am ascribing to Sashi.
Going to take one last shot at convincing you that I deserve at least that much credence...
I've headed up consensus decision making processes and seen/made them work. I made a living for close to 10 years doing so and did well enough at it that I was able to retire at age 50. I did so in a culture that was full of decision makers. Hell... I was a decision maker... and a one with a pretty damn good track record. The consensus process yielded far better decisions than any one individual, including me, ever made.
That experience is the difference between me and your radio-heads... and you and most, if not nearly all, others here.
So if Sashi is not "deciding" where do the decision come from? The Scouts... the analytic geeks... and, in the case of rostered players, the staff. These are the evaluators... these are the deciders. It's Sashi's role to test and bring together their individual "decisions" to form a consensus approach.
How do I know this is his role? Haslam told us it was when he introduced Sashi praising his ability "to build consensus." Or as Sashi put it about himself when he introduced DePo:
Brown: “This is my 12th season in the league, been in and around a lot of strategic decisions in terms of how to build rosters. I think one of my strengths also is to be able to bring people together and form a consensus, take information and make good strategic decisions. We’ll make a series of those and in time we will see the results translate on the field.”
Important to note here is that Sashi in speaking about his decision making set his level at strategic. Strategic vs. tactical decision making is one of the most confused concepts in business.
Strategic examples include things like: moving to a consensus process, drafting a QB early Day 1 later in the rebuild rather than ASAP, playing hard ball in negotiating with rostered FAs and the timing of aggressively signing UFAs and RFAs. Any repeated actions over time can be ascribed to a Strategic decision.
Tactical decisions include: taking a shot on a QB later in a given draft rather than standing pat, drafting 4 WRs in a single draft and trading for a player in a contract year hoping to, but not guaranteed to, sign him to a long-term deal later. One off decisions are generally Tactical in nature, but can be repeated over time and remain tactical.
I think that's a pretty accurate assessment. I'm always kind of optimistic that after a couple of years in the league kids get their act together teams learn how to operate the relatively complicated offense and defense and a bunch of young kids certainly have the chance to mature together. On the other hand if it is the main goal of this front office to tank for more draft picks in 2018 that would seem to be a strategy even harsher than the Colts when they sucked for luck.
Even though I'd like to have a real football guy in the office I'm still willing to give this garbage 3 years. But I'm failing to see the signs of progress in this historic debacle.
Nah... still's "assessment" is not based in reality, but I'll deal with that in another post.
I do agree with your last part... the underlined bit... so we have that...
And this part... the parallels with the Manningless Colts is not completely off the mark. The difference I see is that while the Colts were dedicated to "sucking for Luck" as their holding out a healthy Manning late in the season (as they may well do with Luck this year). They knew going in that they had a QB, Painter, with whom they would not win.
Going into this season we did not know that. Surely our FO knew going winless was a possibility once playing a rookie QB became the clear choice, but when we had Kess and Osweiler vying to start I've no doubt we felt one would be good enough to win some games. I've only slightly less doubt that they still believed we could, and would, win with Kizer. Do they still believe we will win with Kizer? Surely even less so, but not to the point of extinction... even Painter won two for the Colts.
Does the FO care if we win this season? Yes... I've no doubt they do. Despite any wins making their job harder, they know going winless carries a downside they do not care to experience. They remember what it meant to the franchise... to the fanbase.... to win even one game last year. Book It!
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I suppose you believe there's a reason I should take his word, or his opinion, over most of the sports radio guys I listen to on a regular basis (who have certainly been known to make stuff up or be off the mark on occasion). Seems like the draft is like an episode of Pawn Stars where we trade and wheel and deal until we find some guys that may or may not turn out to be Diamonds in the Rough. So it's not Sashi Brown that mines for these gems and decides which veterans have no value? Then who's at the helm of Good Ship Barter? By the way whoever the hell it is (and from here I don't see a seasoned football professional in the office anywhere) has done worse than anyone else in the history of the sport at least so far.
WSS
war thinks it's stupid to question any decisions our front office makes. he thinks sashi is a genius and hue is a fantastic coach. He thinks the team is talented and next year we'll absolutely kill it. we'll see. not that i doubt we can eventually get things right. but i think it'll be more like three years. they're behind schedule, and Shmucking up if you ask me.
- war thinks it's stupid to question any decisions our front office makes.
- he thinks sashi is a genius and hue is a fantastic coach.
- He thinks the team is talented and next year we'll absolutely kill it.
- we'll see. not that i doubt we can eventually get things right. but i think it'll be more like three years. they're behind schedule, and Shmucking up if you ask me.
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
It sure would be nice if somebody in this FO could pick football talent!
None are so blind as those who will not see...
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I suppose you believe there's a reason I should take his word, or his opinion, over most of the sports radio guys I listen to on a regular basis (who have certainly been known to make stuff up or be off the mark on occasion). Seems like the draft is like an episode of Pawn Stars where we trade and wheel and deal until we find some guys that may or may not turn out to be Diamonds in the Rough. So it's not Sashi Brown that mines for these gems and decides which veterans have no value? Then who's at the helm of Good Ship Barter? By the way whoever the hell it is (and from here I don't see a seasoned football professional in the office anywhere) has done worse than anyone else in the history of the sport at least so far.
WSS
war thinks it's stupid to question any decisions our front office makes. he thinks sashi is a genius and hue is a fantastic coach. He thinks the team is talented and next year we'll absolutely kill it. we'll see. not that i doubt we can eventually get things right. but i think it'll be more like three years. they're behind schedule, and Shmucking up if you ask me.
- war thinks it's stupid to question any decisions our front office makes.
- he thinks sashi is a genius and hue is a fantastic coach.
- He thinks the team is talented and next year we'll absolutely kill it.
- we'll see. not that i doubt we can eventually get things right. but i think it'll be more like three years. they're behind schedule, and Shmucking up if you ask me.
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
It sure would be nice if somebody in this FO could pick football talent!
None are so blind as those who will not see...
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Sashi has shown alot of good things. The one big negative is his overall plan. You cannot gut a team the way he did an expect it to perform.
So you think he expected it to perform?
So you think he expected it to perform?
I really think 'ol Sashi and DePo expected way better than 1-21. And counting BTW.
-
-
Everyone really needs to get over the notion of this FO being some sort of wild new thing. I've grown tired of even attempting to inform all the people who assert "anal lytics" as the one single reason why anything is happening.
As with the reality of life, nothing is simple enough to be accurately described by a black-and-white description. [analytics is always bad! no it is forever good!]
EVERY team uses analytics. 100%. Not some, not part, not half -- all 32. The difference is in precisely how much weight is given to the opinion of the numbers guy.. thus the differences are more like 5%, 10% between the team with the least numbers impact and the team with the most.. very much pennies on the dollar. Even on the Browns it's not 100% run by the moneyball guy -- it's still shared decision making.
And even once you understand that.. the reality is that a human ultimately assigns the ranking of all players. What if a player who "made football plays" was given a good number by a football guy after watching video? Is that "anal lytics" or a "decision made by a football guy" ?
Examples of questions that determine the precise impact of a number vs "bad snap decisions made by someone we wish desperately was a football guy" are:
Does the analytics determine the list of the lowest 30 players and their potential UDFA or practice squad potential replacements? All 52? Where does it start and stop?
Does analytics develop a list for every available college player for draft day.. and where does it take over? after the first round? At the start? Never? This is very similar to how you'd enter a FF draft.. do you just cross players off a list and then pick the highest, or is RB weak and so you're taking a RB now even though WR might be the BPA per the list you developed?
If a player looks good one year but sucks the next [we'll call this imaginary player "Kenny Britt"] why does that not challenge your presumption that the football guy is always right...
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
- war thinks it's stupid to question any decisions our front office makes.
- he thinks sashi is a genius and hue is a fantastic coach.
- He thinks the team is talented and next year we'll absolutely kill it.
- we'll see. not that i doubt we can eventually get things right. but i think it'll be more like three years. they're behind schedule, and Shmucking up if you ask me.
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
It sure would be nice if somebody in this FO could pick football talent!
None are so blind as those who will not see...
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.
I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.
But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.
EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.
Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.
-
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.
I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.
But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.
EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.
Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.
And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones?
Precisely what would they need to do to "demonstrate accountability" ? Sit Britt? Like.. they have? FYI, pryor is sucking in DC.. 16/209/1, basically Britt if given lots more plays. Britt was viewed as the same player as Pryor, and in large measure that's true because they both are animated testicles in shoulder pads. I'll never agree that firing a FO person demonstrates anything other than ignorant management if any one specific FA acquisition doesn't work out, because then the rational response would be to never take the risk of signing FA.
This statement really is a copout -- of course there's no way to "be accountable" as a leader if the player only cared the year he was to become FA. Britt was viewed as solid when he was signed.
Note that all the people who bought the NFL's most expensive defense of the 2015 season were in fact made accountable for their series of terrible decisions..
-
For a whole lot of words being written, a whole lot of new players and still no pop! They suck as bad this year as last, and the year before and, yada,yada yada. No beef. No playmakers, no real talent. This FO can stay forever. No fudge! Fudging losing is all they are and know!
-
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.
I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.
But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.
EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.
Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.
I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.
I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.
But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.
EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.
Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.
I can't keep track of everyone's opinions every week so sorry if I've lumped you in with the pro-firers. However, you are in fact doing alot of complaining. And there is a difference between valid criticism and just complaining. My major concern here is that, no matter how much folks want to deny it, the fans influence what goes on. Places like messageboards, water coolers, your local diner, etc. are places where narratives about the team get set. And they trickle upward. People talk about it at the tailgate. People call in to their local radio stations (if said radio station didn't help set the narrative in the first place). They write Jimmy. Etc. Eventually, Jimmy is hearing it and gets a feel for how upset everyone is and lo and behold, he scraps everything.
I try to do my little part in preventing that because blowing everything up is the absolutely last thing we need right now.
Also, how are they supposed to show accountability for Britt? Do you expect an email that someone got fired? Do you think people should be fired for one mistake? Or how about just fined? Are you going to tell your NFC scout he owes you 25 sprints (and then email the fans about it so they get their pound of flesh)? Think man. Not gonna happen.
Going to the Houston game sucked. What a bunch of trashy fans. But that's why I tell people, if you can't handle following the team during this rocky stage, then please just take a year or two off and come back later. I won't blame you. But what is completely unhelpful is people that go to games all hyped up (because the stadium experience lends itself to that), the team gets embarrassed, and then they want said pound of flesh.
Hue is striking me as pretty questionable but, as I've said before:
a. Almost every single vet on the team has been taken away from him, ergo he does not have good players.
b. If we're not fair in evaluating him (ie. give him a few years), then no one is going to want this job next time around.
So I am waiting until MINIMUM end of 2018 to even think about firing Hue Jackson.
And I'm going to graciously skip over all the pining for the Pettine days.
Precisely what would they need to do to "demonstrate accountability" ? Sit Britt? Like.. they have? FYI, pryor is sucking in DC.. 16/209/1, basically Britt if given lots more plays. Britt was viewed as the same player as Pryor, and in large measure that's true because they both are animated testicles in shoulder pads. I'll never agree that firing a FO person demonstrates anything other than ignorant management if any one specific FA acquisition doesn't work out, because then the rational response would be to never take the risk of signing FA.
This statement really is a copout -- of course there's no way to "be accountable" as a leader if the player only cared the year he was to become FA. Britt was viewed as solid when he was signed.
Note that all the people who bought the NFL's most expensive defense of the 2015 season were in fact made accountable for their series of terrible decisions..
Exactly.
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
None are so blind as those who will not see...
Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.
I stay quiet about alot of my criticisms, because I don't want to further foment the anger and cause the regime to get blown up. The only things I can think of that I was mad about AT THE TIME (not criticizing in retrospect like most folks):
-not somehow retaining Schwartz (I realize we were in a terrible position) (also, I got over this when I saw Shon Coleman play)
-Corey Coleman (though I was ok with the general idea of taking 4 receivers thinking that would set us for the next 5 years)
-letting Pryor walk
-drafting Peppers
I'm plum out of anything else.
On Hue, like I said, I'm taking a wait and see approach. I don't think coaches make much of a difference in the NFL though. Unless someone's just a complete savant or complete Retard, you're basically going to win as many games as your talent dictates, on the mean (of course most bad coaches are not granted long enough to even come up with a reasonable sample size with which to determine a mean). So from the coaching standpoint, I don't really care one way or the other. But what he IS is a great motivator and player's coach, and I see great value in that, especially when you have at least one coordinator with whom you can be completely hands off.
-
Jimmy sucks!
-
Great motivator? Players coach? It seems to me that a players coach will have some success after a few years of a strict military discipline regime and the players get to take the gloves off. Or the yoke depending on your point of view. This is the youngest team in the league and might do well with a little bit of discipline you think?
Seriously didn't coach Jackson ask them to be cool during the national anthem but they sort of flipped him off?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
For a whole lot of words being written, a whole lot of new players and still no pop! They suck as bad this year as last, and the year before and, yada,yada yada. No beef. No playmakers, no real talent. This FO can stay forever. No fudge! Fudging losing is all they are and know!
For a whole lot of words being written, a whole lot of new players and still no pop! They suck as bad this year as last, and the year before and, yada,yada yada. No beef. No playmakers, no real talent. This FO can stay forever. No fudge! Fudging losing is all they are and know!
We may have some offensive playmakers?..But as we have seen from TB,Tenn,Philly, Texans & Rams they start to show up with a QB..Than a Coach that can adapt to his QB's strengths..Not yellow blocks into round holes with Bl-hue hammers
-
- war thinks it's stupid to question any decisions our front office makes.
- he thinks sashi is a genius and hue is a fantastic coach.
- He thinks the team is talented and next year we'll absolutely kill it.
- we'll see. not that i doubt we can eventually get things right. but i think it'll be more like three years. they're behind schedule, and Shmucking up if you ask me.
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
It sure would be nice if somebody in this FO could pick football talent!
None are so blind as those who will not see...
What I wouldn't mind seeing at all is giving Manning some BS title (executive VP of player development) and a big salary, but have him focus on one thing-Quarterback, and who he thinks is worth that pick. At the end of the day the reason the Browns have been bottom dwellers is because our QB play is terrible.
So have Manning sit pretty next to Jimmy during gameday, but behind the scenes have the guy spend all his billable hours on scouting a QB, or developing the guys we have.
Special Consultant works for me... and if he shows to have the chops for more, then expand his role later.
-
So many posts... so little time...
I really think 'ol Sashi and DePo expected way better than 1-21. And counting BTW.
This season, yes... I've no doubt, but my comment was related to the teardown and the 2016 season... so there's that.
There is not a single doubt in my mind they expected far better...... and if they didn't, then they need to get the hell out of the organization this second.
Have you seen Moneyball? Remember the scene where Pitt and DePo sit down with the owner and project "7 games behind by the All-Star break" when they were way down in the standings early in the season and a laughing stock? I'm sure there was some of that going on in front of Haslam as well both before the season and in Jimmah's recent "come to Jesus" session.
I don't know what numbers were presented in either meeting, but if I had to guess.. and you know I do... then before the season 4-12 give or take was likely advertised and more recently 2-14, if Kizer develops... and we stay relatively healthy.
While not fun for anyone I doubt the meet was career altering.
-
Everyone really needs to get over the notion of this FO being some sort of wild new thing. I've grown tired of even attempting to inform all the people who assert "anal lytics" as the one single reason why anything is happening.
As with the reality of life, nothing is simple enough to be accurately described by a black-and-white description. [analytics is always bad! no it is forever good!]
EVERY team uses analytics. 100%. Not some, not part, not half -- all 32. The difference is in precisely how much weight is given to the opinion of the numbers guy.. thus the differences are more like 5%, 10% between the team with the least numbers impact and the team with the most.. very much pennies on the dollar. Even on the Browns it's not 100% run by the moneyball guy -- it's still shared decision making.
And even once you understand that.. the reality is that a human ultimately assigns the ranking of all players. What if a player who "made football plays" was given a good number by a football guy after watching video? Is that "anal lytics" or a "decision made by a football guy" ?
Examples of questions that determine the precise impact of a number vs "bad snap decisions made by someone we wish desperately was a football guy" are:
Does the analytics determine the list of the lowest 30 players and their potential UDFA or practice squad potential replacements? All 52? Where does it start and stop?
Does analytics develop a list for every available college player for draft day.. and where does it take over? after the first round? At the start? Never? This is very similar to how you'd enter a FF draft.. do you just cross players off a list and then pick the highest, or is RB weak and so you're taking a RB now even though WR might be the BPA per the list you developed?
If a player looks good one year but sucks the next [we'll call this imaginary player "Kenny Britt"] why does that not challenge your presumption that the football guy is always right...
Everyone really needs to get over the notion of this FO being some sort of wild new thing. I've grown tired of even attempting to inform all the people who assert "anal lytics" as the one single reason why anything is happening.
As with the reality of life, nothing is simple enough to be accurately described by a black-and-white description. [analytics is always bad! no it is forever good!]
EVERY team uses analytics. 100%. Not some, not part, not half -- all 32. The difference is in precisely how much weight is given to the opinion of the numbers guy.. thus the differences are more like 5%, 10% between the team with the least numbers impact and the team with the most.. very much pennies on the dollar. Even on the Browns it's not 100% run by the moneyball guy -- it's still shared decision making.
And even once you understand that.. the reality is that a human ultimately assigns the ranking of all players. What if a player who "made football plays" was given a good number by a football guy after watching video? Is that "anal lytics" or a "decision made by a football guy" ?
Examples of questions that determine the precise impact of a number vs "bad snap decisions made by someone we wish desperately was a football guy" are:
Does the analytics determine the list of the lowest 30 players and their potential UDFA or practice squad potential replacements? All 52? Where does it start and stop?
Does analytics develop a list for every available college player for draft day.. and where does it take over? after the first round? At the start? Never? This is very similar to how you'd enter a FF draft.. do you just cross players off a list and then pick the highest, or is RB weak and so you're taking a RB now even though WR might be the BPA per the list you developed?
If a player looks good one year but sucks the next [we'll call this imaginary player "Kenny Britt"] why does that not challenge your presumption that the football guy is always right...
I think I'm in love... sorry 'bout that...
-
- war questions this FO's choices much of the time. What he gets is that it is not the typical NFL FO... that it is not in the tradition of NFL FOs. And he's willing to give it time.
- war's never said any such thing about Sashi... and neither have I. Hue? May be projecting a bit here, but I don't recall him making any such claim. I know I have called for an OC for a long time now. Certainly before this season and I think I at least labelled it a "good idea" when Hue first said he'd be the play caller.
- Sorta and no... We both think the team has more talent than it has had, but that's different from calling it "talented" at this point as to do so is all-encompassing... and lcearly we lack talent at some positions. Also know we don't think "we'll absolutely kill it" next year. Become game competitive? Absolutely. Division crown competitive? Not in 2018...
- First, you sure do a good impression of someone in serious doubt of our getting it "right". Also not sure what you see happening in "three years", but I do agree we are behind where we thought we'd be with the lions share due to the current state of the QB position. But stay tuned... still could see an upswing this season... and should see a stab at a quantum leap this off-season.
I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.
I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.
But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.
EVERY Browns game i've ever went to, from a Steelers one, to the Lions one with the horrible Weeden interception, we've been beat horribly or lost a completely ridiculous way at the last minute. Having Texans fans gloat in my face that my team is a joke doesn't make me feel good. Cheering so hard and giving Jimmy my money to watch us not give effort or show ANY progress at all that game absolutely KILLED me. I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland. We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.
Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.
I have no problem with him believing in the plan, but for me, I'm not saying I want to fire anyone, and he's generalizing that everyone who questions some of the moves made, or coaching, that we all are in the same category of wanting to blow it up, that's just not true man. Things aren't so black and white, and for myself, I find myself in the middle, wanting us to win. I never saw the Browns win. I'm 27. They were moved when I was a kid. I understand the process, but being able to analyze what's going on is what makes us able to track the progress. I think the team has talent, but Hue has horrible clock management and he needs an offensive coordinator. He also seems very unsure of himself at times (for example, now Kessler's 2nd string and Hogan's 3rd string). I definitely think our front office means well, but this experiment is moving rapidly slow.
I know you question the FO and Hue, I was just talking about War. Everytime I brought up Hue's clock management I got flamed and was basically told to shutup and wait by him.
But what really set me off, was paying $400 to attend the Texans game (I know you went as well), and see us get blown out so pathetically bad.
I don't even care if we go 0-16, I just want to see some damn fire. Some competitiveness. I want our players to make plays, to grow and get better. So far, we look worse every week. And the accountability is NONexistent. Who signed Kenny Britt? Who's idea was it? No ones? I guess no one is accountable in Cleveland.
We'll always have people give excuses about how we have a lack of talent. But Pettine seemed to make the team click and smash for us at a time. We were growing and getting better than and it was fun and exciting to watch. That's all I want. Progress, to show we're headed in the right direction. And I truly, really really hope we get that. Because spending money and giving up every Sunday looking like a fool is getting old.
Of course i'm going to be fired up after a loss like that. But hey man i've always appreciated and respected your opinion. I hope you understand why I'm frustrated as well since you were at the game too.
As is your right... I left NRG in the dumper as well... but I have a job to do here, so it was back on the horse.
Commonality, first... Questioning Hue's game management from his use of TOs to playcalling to seeming lack of adapting his O to the talent on hand is all fair game, IMO. Sunday is a perfect example. It seemed... and my memory could be faulty here... that as soon as we went down 10-3 he went away from under-center runs and PAP to shotgun, read option, pass happy Hue. And in our first series we did move the ball.
As for accountability... specifically for Britt? Someone just may take the fall for that idea... we may never know who it was... and that's the way it should be. But there can always be a case of "did not see that coming" and this may be it. Good career... breakout year in his prior season... a DC who knew him or at least saw him in practices and heard about his work ethic, skills, etc., in staff meetings... sure seems like the bases were covered.
So if it was a case of a true consensus that came together with everyone pretty well in lock step and no one "champion" that pushed hard to bring the group together, then you have to ask what did we miss? Learn from the error and move on. Could even be as simple as Britt is not a fast-ball catcher... and we paired him with a fast-ball thrower. Could be our rookie QB settles in in the 2nd half of the season, develops a modicum of "touch" and Britt's numbers improve. We shall see...
The more I look back on Pet's 7-9 season, the more it seems like an overachieving outlier. I did not see it at the time, but starting thinking that late in the season after Hoyer cracked. Then of course Young Shanny moved on, Pet left the D to fouce on the O and... well... we all know the rest.
Nothing more I can say but to reiterate that if you are judging this team based upon "success", then it's going to be hard to bear these next *sigh* 11 weeks. But if you look for "progress", then you have a shot at making it thru with your sanity relatively intact.
Dr. Tour is here to help...
It always can be worse...
... you could be going to London!
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
For a whole lot of words being written, a whole lot of new players and still no pop! They suck as bad this year as last, and the year before and, yada,yada yada. No beef. No playmakers, no real talent. This FO can stay forever. No fudge! Fudging losing is all they are and know!
For a whole lot of words being written...
Well... it is a forum... so there's that.
But thanks for limiting your participation.
The only problem with that is a dude like Peyton Manning isn't going to settle for "special consultant" which I totally understand. I think you gotta put more meat on the bones.
May well be true... but I would not do so.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login