Outsourcing

[Chicopee John]

@brownindian said:

What are your views on the outsourcing of jobs by major IT companies ?

I support only in the rare instances where a qualified American cannot fill that role.

I have worked for a number of firms and have seen wholesale exchanges in workforces. I have seen overall responsiveness and quality decline.

IMHO, it is particularly irritating to see firms that have received TARP or other forms of US Taxpayer support sponsor such negative activities on US workers.

When it is all said and done, who really cares about the US worker any way. And this is coming from a pretty ardent free market supporter.

[calfoxwc]

Consultants can come here and work for 6 months and go back to their country.

No benefits, no families, no insurance, etc...

Of course, for American workers who DO have families, and WILL get insurance,

and benefits, etc, it is a lot more expensive.

So, companies suffer with consultants as the American workers lose their jobs

unless they will at least work the foreign consultant's long hours.

It's all a bad situation. And American management does NOT care, they

just want their bonuses for cutting costs.

[choco]

hmmm.... cake.

should i eat it?

[mz.]

@inspecta said:

However in the case of customer service/ tech support I find the practice absolutely disgusting.

I have no idea which companies you're on hold with the most, but I'll take someone in India speaking clear and concise Queen's English over the who-knows-what coming out of our illustrious American CSR's mouths any day.

[osusev]

its an interesting conundrum and oddly one I am facing right now. To produce a product at a competitive price one absolute escalating cost that has direct correlary relationship with client growth is customer/tech support.

The easy answer to 24 hour tech/customer support is to oursource it because of infrastructure/human capital cost plus operational costs depeding upon the geography (fiber costs here as opposed to the southwest/west coast). Taking advantage of the dollar vs foreign capital plus labor minimums is REALLY hard to ignore.

We have chosen to use better/efficient technology (Linux Voip tech/internally created software/customer support tiers that start with empowering commissioned sales peoplle to handle 60% of troubleshooting) that hopefully equates into a greater ratio of customer/tech support to client ratio. We hope that in conjunction with a robust online support system (remote management) that will keep us competitive in costs vs outsourcing.

From a profit vs cost standpoint I think (imho which is worthless) U.S. based I.T. companies (who really dont have any excuses considering they are in the tech industry) CAN use efficient cost effective technologies to create the same cost cutting advantages that outsourcing produces. It is a little more work but really the end product benefits from GOOD ENGLISH speaking reps, its all about creating exponential force application using smart business principles and tech to reduce your total expansion and infrastructure costs.

One other tactic we have chosen to employ is create incentive based pay scales that are not bound by hourly/salary rates rather performance and volume. I dont mind paying more to higher quality, harder working tech/customer support. I hope that it helps us create people who are more willing to help at a higher level for more hours than just the minimums.

I dont know if my tactics are the right ones but for right now it seems to be working for us, I think Outsourcing is unavoidable in certain industries because of cost competitve problems but with the tech industry there are options. I am not opposed to Importing PERMANENT talent from other countries, but I think there is a lot of homegrown talent to be found.

[Legacy Fan]

I have mixed views on this.

On the one hand, I am happy that my Accord was assembled by the fine folks of Maryville, OH. Japan outsourced their labor to our country. And despite my sometimes pessimistic views in here, I choose to think I got Cadillac quality for the price of an Accord, rather than having to pay for a Cadillac just to get a Cadillac. The only advantage US automaker's currently enjoy is the truck market. Anything from light trucks to 18-wheelers that's worth a damn are still coming from the US, but that advantage is closing - Hino, Isuzu, and Mercedes (again) come to mind. Isuzu was building the duramax diesel that went into the chevy & GMC 3500. My F-350 is USA, but it's very task specific (for me at least).

But, Carbon Hood & his Merry Band of idiots will look to accelerate the closing of our advantage in that market via cap & trade.

And again, I'll tolerate the occasional hiccup on the phone with New Dell-i when I need my computer fixed because I know that the individual is motivated and seeking to better his future & truly is trying to help me. Plus I can do most of my own repairs/troubleshooting anyway so it's not a service I use often. I'd own a mac if Dental school permitted it, but the otherwise would-be-unemployed's that inhabit the apple stores draw my ire much more quickly than the Indian on the phone. Not to mention the typically $400-500 savings of buying the dell/etc. vs. the mac. I prefer OS vs windows, but not $500's worth. You're able to read this, right?

[mz.]

@inspecta said:

I can't help it, I'm rude as hell to those reps. I know it's not their fault. But I know the Americans who pull the purse strings often listen to the calls that come in for "quality assurance" so in order to view my displeasure I make sure the call goes terribly, which is never that hard because the person I'm talking to has about 6 mo of training in the english language.

I mean, is it me or is that super-dickish?

[choco]

^im in customer service......guys like him dont get no help from me. just the run-around....

[Kosar_For_President]

mz. said:

I mean, is it me or is that super-dickish?

Sorry mz the pussy it is not. I will drop a service (hosting, domain, etc) or a product to where people can't understand me. It's not being a dick, it's getting what you pay for. I'm not rude to them, I just don't use that product or service. I will literally will cut the service off on the spot, if I can help it. I don't care if I have to pay more. I don't have time to deal with a language barrier. It's not being raciest either, I am sure whomever it is on the other end of the phone is a cool person. Just not on my time.

If I go to Mexico and set a tamale stand and don't speak Spanish, you think people will buy my tamales? No way.

[Westside Steve]

@kosar_for_president said:

Sorry mz the pussy it is not. I will drop a service (hosting, domain, etc) or a product to where people can't understand me. It's not being a dick, it's getting what you pay for.

Gotta side with KFP here.

Doesn't seem dickish at all to expect to be able to use a service you pay for.

WSS

[Kosar_For_President]

Gotta side with KFP here.

What is the world coming to WWS agrees with me and I agree with Peen, all in one day. Wow!

[calfoxwc]

Some consultants brought in from overseas, and some IT help from over there, are aggravating.

They know English enough to basically converse, but anything outside of that, and some of them

go off on a tangent reading their scripts.

My friend from India gets upset with some of them, how BAD is THAT ?

But some of those consultants, brought over here, are good. Some are hard to understand

when they talk. But some also don't perceive intuitiveness of software design like

Americans do - it's seems to be a lefthanded kind of differentiation between American English,

and their language. Which, ends up with them not noticing the particulars on American workers'

responsibilities like we do.

But hey, they are cheaper and they generally work a hell of a lot longer workweek.

And their benefits and housing is paid for...

I hate it. It isn't necessary often, imho, but it's cheaper. I have been asked to completely redesign

and reprogram major Notes database packages because of it.

And, don't get me started about, all too often, their programming "skills". Structure and consistency goes out

the window with a whole lot of bits of code sent to them from their home country base company. And it gets

mangled and chopped and remarked out all over, and I've even seen them bypass reiterative code

by letting it go ahead and compute, but they take out the reporting line so it doesn't really do anything,

but they didn't know what all they had to delete...

BUT, they work longer hours and they are cheaper.

!@#$$#@@#

[Chicopee John]

@kosar_for_president said:

Sorry mz the pussy it is not.

Sorry, Kosar, it is.

I am never rude to the CSR on the other end, regardless of where they might reside. I always ask where they are and they tell me virtually all of the time.

I don't look at them as 'the enemy'. They are offered an opportunity and they take advantage of it. I cannot blame them. They are looking to improve their lot in life.

The corporate greedmongers are the one's I blame.............Employees are our most important asset.....................bla, bla, bla.

[Kosar_For_President]

@chicopee-john said:

Sorry, Kosar, it is.

I am never rude to the CSR on the other end, regardless of where they might reside. I always ask and, they tell me virtually all of the time.

I don't look at them as 'the enemy'. They are offered an opportunity and they take advantage of it. I cannot blame them. They are looking to improve their lot in life.

The corporate greedmongers are the one's I blame.............Employees are our most important asset.....................bla, bla, bla.

I am never rude Chiopee. That is the point. I do not use their service right off the bat. My time sitting on the phone trying to decipher what they are saying is worth paying an extra $10 for a product. How is that being a dick? They don't deliver on a product I purchased, that is not what I signed up for. I can't use their product effectively if I can't get a situation resolved in due time.

So you will just sit there patiently waiting for them to understand you and you understand them? What a bunch of bull. I'd like to read the transcript of that call.

"Hello welcome to Microsoft in INDIA, how may I help you" - Habib

"I am getting this error when I try to upload a file" - Chiopee

"My hav ur derial dumber" - Habib

"What is a derial dumber (said very politely)" - Chiopee

"Ur derial dumber" - Habib

"What is a derial dumber (said less nicely)" - Chiopee

"Ur derial dumber" - Habib

"WHAT THE FCK IS A DERIAL DUMBER!!!!" -Chiopee

"OH, my serial number" - Chiopee, 10 minutes later

"Where is my serial number located" - Chiopee

"Dunder da Onitor" - Habib

"What is the Onitor" - Chiopee

"Oh, the monitor" - Chiopee

....... 75 minutes later, your problem has been fixed, hurray!!

Being politically correct shouldn't cost me MY time (time is money). I guess you got more time on your hands then me.

[Westside Steve]

@kosar_for_president said:

I am never rude Chiopee.

Me neither.

But if you're frustrated enough to actually call tech support and then can't understand.....

Still I give Indians credit for being able to do it in English at all.

Notice those centers are never in East Cleveland...

WSS

[Chicopee John]

@kosar_for_president said:

I am never rude Chiopee. That is the point. I do not use their service right off the bat. My time sitting on the phone trying to decipher what they are saying is worth paying an extra $10 for a product. How is that being a dick? They don't deliver on a product I purchased, that is not what I signed up for. I can't use their product effectively if I can't get a situation resolved in due time.

Sorry, Kosar, I didn't read your entire post and, therefore, didn't get your message. I thought you were agreeing that being a deek - being rude to the person on the other end - was acceptable. Me Culpa.

I agree with your tactics 100%.

[choco]

so you guys can't understand english then.....whos fault is that?

im a world-wide customer service engineer, full time, and deal with not only India, but china, japan, taiwan, korea, indonesia, singapore, ireland, england, hungary....well, i could go on. cry me a river if you can't understand english......i have to convey technical information and instructions to people who can barely communicate.

these people are trying their best....just because their english isn't up to snuff with most fast-speaking, colloquialism-using, slang-uttering american is not their problem....its yours. speak slower, and turn off the TV. try listening.....it helps.

all the aervice i get overseas has bee good...problem was solved. my experience, americans are as bad if not worse in phone support.....my comcast tech told me i had to clear my cookies to connect to their DNS. she didn't even know what a "ping" meant......spoke great english, just didn't know shit about the subject matter.

[mz.]

Nor is there ever a reason to be a total dick to a stranger who is trying to help you. Ever.

This thread made me sad. Kosar's "Habib" conversation was so exaggerated I don't even know where to begin.

[BrownIndian]

SAN FRANCISCO—Various news outlets reported Tuesday (June 2) that IBM Corp. let go off more workers at facilities in upstate New York.

According to a report on the Times-Herald's website, Big Blue recently notified contractual and full-time employees in East Fishkill, N.Y., and Yorktown Heights, N.Y., that they were being terminated. The report cites multiple sources including IBM employees.

That report and another on Poughkeepsiejournal.com state that IBM this week notified New York's Department of Labor that one IBM East Fishkill manufacturing worker would be let go Aug. 31 for economic reasons.

IBM has for months been the target of criticism by labor unions and others over job cuts and other issues.

An IBM workers union, Alliance@IBM/CWA Local 1701, issued a statement in April saying it would urge the company to stop cutting and offshoring U.S. jobs. There was speculation that the union would make waves over this issue at the company's April shareholder meeting, but an IBM representative told EE Times that the meeting was peaceful.

The union has alleged that IBM has in recent months quietly cut some 10,000 jobs, many of which are in the U.S., while simultaneously beefing up its headcount in India and other nations.

The union's website and chat board feature several comments said to be from IBM workers confirming that they or friends have been laid off One report said that 88 workers had thus far been cut company-wide. These reports could not be independently verified. An IBM spokesperson did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the reported job cuts.

The union reacted angrily earlier this year when IBM cut some 4,000 jobs.

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http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArtic...cleID=217701380

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These are the other kind of layoff's that worry me. These are good jobs that require intelligence and skill and letting these kind of jobs go away is just bad for the nation. Also, for all the so called cost effectiveness that IBM keeps yapping about, their products are still expensive. none of the savings are passed on to the customers around the globe who use their product ... so is this just an exercise in bloating their already overinflated incomes ?

[choco]

east fishkill......hmmm, worked there for 4 years on the cell line. i know they closd the bulington, VT plant.....but that was off and on for years and was never profitable.

i think many of these jobs are on IBM consulting side....they're still expanding silicon operations there, so i know for a fact that the workforce of 323 has not been reduced.

either way, if the union wants to keep those jobs, perhaps they'd make some concessions. its not always corporate greed.....sometimes, though decisions are necessary to keep a company viable.

my entire management staff was just let go.....people running my company for the last 20 years. i couldn't ever imagine why.....