The landry deal.....is there a browns tax?
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Let's simplify this......We were NOT going to become a winner "on the cheap". Most teams have 7 (or fewer) picks in entire draft. We had 12 & did not trade ANY of our 5 picks in the 1st 2 rounds for Landry. We are vastly improving without mortgaging our draft as we had before.
Landry is an established offensive PLAYMAKER & we can add more by retaining those top picks. With the other trades, we are now able to offer free agents a much better landing spot.........
All systems GO!!!
Mike
Let's simplify this......We were NOT going to become a winner "on the cheap". Most teams have 7 (or fewer) picks in entire draft. We had 12 & did not trade ANY of our 5 picks in the 1st 2 rounds for Landry. We are vastly improving without mortgaging our draft as we had before.
Landry is an established offensive PLAYMAKER & we can add more by retaining those top picks. With the other trades, we are now able to offer free agents a much better landing spot.........
All systems GO!!!
Mike
Miami had a need the BROWNS had a bigger need that's a win/win and then some. Same sorta with BUF and GB although in the long run I think GB did pretty good with Kizer.
And if it's possible the 2018 BROWNS draft just got even more interesting.
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The Dolphins had no cap space. The Browns are busting at the seams with money.
Landry is rumored to be looking for 14 mil per season. These NFL players hate playing for the franchise tag money. Yeah, its a lot, but if you suffer a career ending injury youre all done and your shot at big money gone with it. The franchise tag is a death sentience. I cant imagine Bell is happy about it over in Pittsburgh. These guys look for the most signing bonus up front. So, you give Landry a deal in the 30 mil signing bonus range spread out 4 years over the Browns cap plus salary and other incentives averaging about 12 million a season.
Browns get a plug and play WR. NE does it all the time.
the patriots dont give plug and play wrs that sort of money though....landry is going to get a contract from the browns with guaranteed money probably above his value. Which is fine and all...not my money and we have the cap room and at least hes a good player
the patriots dont give plug and play wrs that sort of money though....landry is going to get a contract from the browns with guaranteed money probably above his value. Which is fine and all...not my money and we have the cap room and at least hes a good player
The only thing that really counts is signing bonus. Landry wont get the "salary" part of the contract if he is no longer a Brown. Teams back load these deals with high salary amounts, but usually the player never sees a penny of that money unless he is just stud material and the team converts salary into signing bonus.
I have to believe that Dorsey scoured the FA slot WR market and saw this as the best option.
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Remember though that Hue Jackson is still the head coach
But Haley is calling the plays and he will tell Hue to go F off in a heart beat.
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The Dolphins had no cap space. The Browns are busting at the seams with money.
Landry is rumored to be looking for 14 mil per season. These NFL players hate playing for the franchise tag money. Yeah, its a lot, but if you suffer a career ending injury youre all done and your shot at big money gone with it. The franchise tag is a death sentience. I cant imagine Bell is happy about it over in Pittsburgh. These guys look for the most signing bonus up front. So, you give Landry a deal in the 30 mil signing bonus range spread out 4 years over the Browns cap plus salary and other incentives averaging about 12 million a season.
Browns get a plug and play WR. NE does it all the time.
the patriots dont give plug and play wrs that sort of money though....landry is going to get a contract from the browns with guaranteed money probably above his value. Which is fine and all...not my money and we have the cap room and at least hes a good player
the patriots dont give plug and play wrs that sort of money though....landry is going to get a contract from the browns with guaranteed money probably above his value. Which is fine and all...not my money and we have the cap room and at least hes a good player
The thing is we don't have Brady or Belicheck so we aren't close to the Patriots YET. There were plenty of teams interested in Landry. The guys got superglue hands and catches more balls than our combined corps last year minus Duke
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Schefter is reporting a deal with Landry is in progress and he seemed optimistic that it would get done.If Schefter stamps his name on it its golden because he is rarely ever wrong.
The WR tag this year is rumored to be 16 million and next year its in the 19 million range if the Browns chose to tag Landry. Thats 35 million guaranteed but Landry is risking the 2018 season to reach that 35 million. Would you rather have about 30 million today after signing a new contract and 2018 salary and other incentives. Or 16 million today adding up to a total of 35 million in 2019 if youre still on the team and not injured or coming off a mediocre season? Im no cap guy, but Landry could pull down 35 million this year and have some insurance if he gets an injury clause included in his contract.
You take the 30 million today and after agent fees invest the rest living off the interest. Salary is pocket change.
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Schefter is reporting a deal with Landry is in progress and he seemed optimistic that it would get done.If Schefter stamps his name on it its golden because he is rarely ever wrong.
The WR tag this year is rumored to be 16 million and next year its in the 19 million range if the Browns chose to tag Landry. Thats 35 million guaranteed but Landry is risking the 2018 season to reach that 35 million. Would you rather have about 30 million today after signing a new contract and 2018 salary and other incentives. Or 16 million today adding up to a total of 35 million in 2019 if youre still on the team and not injured or coming off a mediocre season? Im no cap guy, but Landry could pull down 35 million this year and have some insurance if he gets an injury clause included in his contract.
You take the 30 million today and after agent fees invest the rest living off the interest. Salary is pocket change.
......The WR tag this year is rumored to be 16 million and next year its in the 19 million range if the Browns chose to tag Landry. Thats 35 million guaranteed but Landry is risking the 2018 season to reach that 25 million. Would you rather have about 30 million today after signing a new contract and 2018 salary and other incentives. Or 16 million today adding up to a total of 25 million in 2019 if youre still on the team and not injured or coming off a mediocre season? Im no cap guy, but Landry could pull down 35 million this year and have some insurance if he gets an injury clause included in his contract.
You take the 30 million today and after agent fees invest the rest living off the interest. Salary is pocket change.
boo, doesn’t this all sound like MONOPOLY money or major lottery winnings because basically it is just that. Even the biggest hit on your money is federal taxes and that is only 37% on incomes over $500,000 or $600,000 (mfj), states are a few percent. Agents in the NFL can't charge over 3%. Interest rates are still basically zilch unless you're in the stock market. (money always has been a hobby of mine)
So what do you do when you're 25 and making $xx,xxx,xxx/yr? Does it matter, really now.
Sure these guys want to cash in on their earning potential but most have no need or concept of what they're in to.....except for buying 10 luxury cars.
.....oh I guarantee you if they blew up these salaries (probably never happen) and said $250,000/yr MAXIMUM to play football 99% would jump at it!
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He's exactly what this team needs, a real old style football player. The kid just likes to play, gets himself open and catches the damn ball. That to me is a football player.
Couldn't agree more Aggies! He's the free agent I wanted most.
And by that, I meant way back when he was going to be a free agent prior to Miami slapping the tag on him and temporarily crushing my hopes. He's a proven WR at a Pro Bowl level. Not counting the supplemental draft - try to think back to the last time Cleveland DRAFTED a Pro Bowl WR. I go all the way back to BC (Before Cellphones).
Couldn't agree more Aggies! He's the free agent I wanted most.
And by that, I meant way back when he was going to be a free agent prior to Miami slapping the tag on him and temporarily crushing my hopes. He's a proven WR at a Pro Bowl level. Not counting the supplemental draft - try to think back to the last time Cleveland DRAFTED a Pro Bowl WR. I go all the way back to BC (Before Cellphones).
He may finally be the Brian Brennan type guy I have been begging this franchise to attain... A chain mover!
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the patriots dont give plug and play wrs that sort of money though....landry is going to get a contract from the browns with guaranteed money probably above his value. Which is fine and all...not my money and we have the cap room and at least hes a good player
The only thing that really counts is signing bonus. Landry wont get the "salary" part of the contract if he is no longer a Brown. Teams back load these deals with high salary amounts, but usually the player never sees a penny of that money unless he is just stud material and the team converts salary into signing bonus.
I have to believe that Dorsey scoured the FA slot WR market and saw this as the best option.
The only thing that really counts is signing bonus. Landry wont get the "salary" part of the contract if he is no longer a Brown. Teams back load these deals with high salary amounts, but usually the player never sees a penny of that money unless he is just stud material and the team converts salary into signing bonus.
I have to believe that Dorsey scoured the FA slot WR market and saw this as the best option.
well not neccessarily, look at evans deal. There is typically guaranteed money on top of a signing bonus. In a 60 million dollar deal for example, the signing bonus may be for 14 and the guaranteed portion total(including the signing bonus) is 33.
but even apart from this if you sign a guy to a big signing bonus and cut him after a year or two, thats damn expensive too because in those cases the per year rate you paid him comes out to well above what it costs to even tag someone.
And landry isnt dumb...he knows he is playing on a tag with 16 guaranteed. What you said about tagged guys is true, but moreso true for the truly elite tagged player. Someone like antonio brown woudnt be interested in making 16 million on a one year tag. But jarvis landry? Sure....thats doable for him because he is not that caliber of player. And now when a good but not truly outstanding player carries a tag they have leverage. Just like the team has leverage with a tag over a brown-like player.
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Not sure why people keep saying we stole jarvis landry from the dolphins.
The dolphins only tagged him to trade him...they basically got the #65 pick in the draft for someone as opposed to getting nothing for him. They already made it clear they werent going to give him the mike evans deal he wanted, so what were their other options? pay a slot reciever the 16 million tag? give him a mike evans deal? let him be a fa? Obviously getting the #65 overall pick in the draft is far preferable to all these.....
Look I like landry. He's fine and Im glad we are getting better players. But we basically gave up the #65 pick in the draft for the right to negotiate with a good slot reciever for a contract and/or pay him his tag. Is that a terrible thing? I guess not.....but lets not act like the dolphins didnt like what they got. They werent crazy about paying Landry anyways, and to top it off they picked up the #65 pick in the draft
You're not missing Dwayne Bowe and Kenny Brat - are you Taco? When it comes to the WR position - we've had countless things to complain about and this isn't one of them.
Until today, there wasn't a WR on this roster that could get open immediately. This guy had 112 receptions in 2017 and 110 receptions in 2015. Not that 94 receptions for 1136 yards in 2016 sucked. He's only 25 years old and he can play outside or in the slot at 5'11" 208 pounds.
Prior to his draft, Mike Mayock said "One of my favorite players in the draft is Jarvis Landry. He's not fast, but he's one of the toughest players in the entire draft."
And note...the Browns record for catches in a season is 89.......Landry has had more than that each of the last 3 seasons...if your numbers are right.
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He's exactly what this team needs, a real old style football player. The kid just likes to play, gets himself open and catches the damn ball. That to me is a football player.
Couldn't agree more Aggies! He's the free agent I wanted most.
And by that, I meant way back when he was going to be a free agent prior to Miami slapping the tag on him and temporarily crushing my hopes. He's a proven WR at a Pro Bowl level. Not counting the supplemental draft - try to think back to the last time Cleveland DRAFTED a Pro Bowl WR. I go all the way back to BC (Before Cellphones).
Couldn't agree more Aggies! He's the free agent I wanted most.
And by that, I meant way back when he was going to be a free agent prior to Miami slapping the tag on him and temporarily crushing my hopes. He's a proven WR at a Pro Bowl level. Not counting the supplemental draft - try to think back to the last time Cleveland DRAFTED a Pro Bowl WR. I go all the way back to BC (Before Cellphones).
Well....I think Braylon did make the Pro Bowl in 2007....but that is the only guy since like Webster Slaughter.
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the patriots dont give plug and play wrs that sort of money though....landry is going to get a contract from the browns with guaranteed money probably above his value. Which is fine and all...not my money and we have the cap room and at least hes a good player
Of course NE did when they signed a WR with a Pro Bowl background. You don't think they paid big cake for Randy Moss?
And let's clarify some stuff here Taco. Wes Welker wasn't a Pro Bowl player when he arrived in NE while Danny Amendola was an undrafted Special Teamer before he arrived. Chris Hogan played lacrosse in college so he was just getting acclimated to a little situational football and fill in duty in Buffalo prior to NE.
I'm so pumped up - I'm not allowed to give out any more cyber fanny pats. I'm in time out man!
Of course NE did when they signed a WR with a Pro Bowl background. You don't think they paid big cake for Randy Moss?
And let's clarify some stuff here Taco. Wes Welker wasn't a Pro Bowl player when he arrived in NE while Danny Amendola was an undrafted Special Teamer before he arrived. Chris Hogan played lacrosse in college so he was just getting acclimated to a little situational football and fill in duty in Buffalo prior to NE.
I'm so pumped up - I'm not allowed to give out any more cyber fanny pats. I'm in time out man!
ummm...you may want to look up what NE actually paid moss(when he redid his contract) his first year there. I think you will be surprised.
That aside, are you honestly comparing Randy moss to Jarvis Landry? One of the(if not the?) greatest single offensive difference makers in nfl history to a pretty good slot reciever? really?
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I got the exact pick wrong, but my overall point is the same- we are investing a ton(assuming we give him a contract...if not we have to tag him) in a slot reciever. Thats what I mean by the browns tax.
Landry was essentially a free agent we are signing....the dolphins only tagged him to trade him they didnt want to pay him the 16 million.
I got the exact pick wrong, but my overall point is the same- we are investing a ton(assuming we give him a contract...if not we have to tag him) in a slot reciever. Thats what I mean by the browns tax.
Landry was essentially a free agent we are signing....the dolphins only tagged him to trade him they didnt want to pay him the 16 million.
With the Browns cap space...I do NOT consider the money and a 4th round pick a "Ton". If the guy gets 80-100 catches...he could be well worth the money. And besides...they have ample opportunity to work out a long term deal...which could extend, but lower his contract annual average salary.
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Of course NE did when they signed a WR with a Pro Bowl background. You don't think they paid big cake for Randy Moss?
And let's clarify some stuff here Taco. Wes Welker wasn't a Pro Bowl player when he arrived in NE while Danny Amendola was an undrafted Special Teamer before he arrived. Chris Hogan played lacrosse in college so he was just getting acclimated to a little situational football and fill in duty in Buffalo prior to NE.
I'm so pumped up - I'm not allowed to give out any more cyber fanny pats. I'm in time out man!
ummm...you may want to look up what NE actually paid moss(when he redid his contract) his first year there. I think you will be surprised.
That aside, are you honestly comparing Randy moss to Jarvis Landry? One of the(if not the?) greatest single offensive difference makers in nfl history to a pretty good slot reciever? really?
ummm...you may want to look up what NE actually paid moss(when he redid his contract) his first year there. I think you will be surprised.
That aside, are you honestly comparing Randy moss to Jarvis Landry? One of the(if not the?) greatest single offensive difference makers in nfl history to a pretty good slot reciever? really?
Why are you so worried about the goddam money? Browns have the money...and met a major need....and still have a ton left. Have you been asked to make Jimmy a loan? Don't freeking worry about the money....worry about the talent it brings.
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ummm...you may want to look up what NE actually paid moss(when he redid his contract) his first year there. I think you will be surprised.
That aside, are you honestly comparing Randy moss to Jarvis Landry? One of the(if not the?) greatest single offensive difference makers in nfl history to a pretty good slot reciever? really?
Why are you so worried about the goddam money? Browns have the money...and met a major need....and still have a ton left. Have you been asked to make Jimmy a loan? Don't freeking worry about the money....worry about the talent it brings.
Why are you so worried about the goddam money? Browns have the money...and met a major need....and still have a ton left. Have you been asked to make Jimmy a loan? Don't freeking worry about the money....worry about the talent it brings.
TRUE. I think the most important thing is that the BROWNS go all out to try to stop the bleeding and maybe even save the franchise. They have the opportunity right now.
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I got the exact pick wrong, but my overall point is the same- we are investing a ton(assuming we give him a contract...if not we have to tag him) in a slot reciever. Thats what I mean by the browns tax.
Landry was essentially a free agent we are signing....the dolphins only tagged him to trade him they didnt want to pay him the 16 million.
I got the exact pick wrong, but my overall point is the same- we are investing a ton(assuming we give him a contract...if not we have to tag him) in a slot reciever. Thats what I mean by the browns tax.
Landry was essentially a free agent we are signing....the dolphins only tagged him to trade him they didnt want to pay him the 16 million.
Same reason we got Taylor from the Bills, Buffalo didn't want to pay his $6 million roster bonus next week. I'll just say this, you want quality players- you have to pay them. We'll see what the contract numbers come out at, but the $14 million Landry wants is market rate for a 100 catch a year pro bowl reciever. Haley's got to be extatic.
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I got the exact pick wrong, but my overall point is the same- we are investing a ton(assuming we give him a contract...if not we have to tag him) in a slot reciever. Thats what I mean by the browns tax.
Landry was essentially a free agent we are signing....the dolphins only tagged him to trade him they didnt want to pay him the 16 million.
Same reason we got Taylor from the Bills, Buffalo didn't want to pay his $6 million roster bonus next week. I'll just say this, you want quality players- you have to pay them. We'll see what the contract numbers come out at, but the $14 million Landry wants is market rate for a 100 catch a year pro bowl reciever. Haley's got to be extatic.
Same reason we got Taylor from the Bills, Buffalo didn't want to pay his $6 million roster bonus next week. I'll just say this, you want quality players- you have to pay them. We'll see what the contract numbers come out at, but the $14 million Landry wants is market rate for a 100 catch a year pro bowl reciever. Haley's got to be extatic.
these slogans and generic cut off points '100 catch a year' are meaningless.
Value is all that matters. You could catch 50 passes a year and have great value. You could theoretically catch 170 passes in a year, set an nfl record, and have negative value.
Landry has not been an especially valuable reciever through his career so far. He's caught a lot of passes. but he's also been targeted a ton. his targets, relative to other recievers, just wind up being so much less valuable. thats not a good thing.
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Same reason we got Taylor from the Bills, Buffalo didn't want to pay his $6 million roster bonus next week. I'll just say this, you want quality players- you have to pay them. We'll see what the contract numbers come out at, but the $14 million Landry wants is market rate for a 100 catch a year pro bowl reciever. Haley's got to be extatic.
these slogans and generic cut off points '100 catch a year' are meaningless.
Value is all that matters. You could catch 50 passes a year and have great value. You could theoretically catch 170 passes in a year, set an nfl record, and have negative value.
Landry has not been an especially valuable reciever through his career so far. He's caught a lot of passes. but he's also been targeted a ton. his targets, relative to other recievers, just wind up being so much less valuable. thats not a good thing.
these slogans and generic cut off points '100 catch a year' are meaningless.
Value is all that matters. You could catch 50 passes a year and have great value. You could theoretically catch 170 passes in a year, set an nfl record, and have negative value.
Landry has not been an especially valuable reciever through his career so far. He's caught a lot of passes. but he's also been targeted a ton. his targets, relative to other recievers, just wind up being so much less valuable. thats not a good thing.
Oh please. Not especially valuable? Valuable enough to get franchise tagged!!! Landry repeats his past production, he's worth every dime of his contract.
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The only thing that really counts is signing bonus. Landry wont get the "salary" part of the contract if he is no longer a Brown. Teams back load these deals with high salary amounts, but usually the player never sees a penny of that money unless he is just stud material and the team converts salary into signing bonus.
I have to believe that Dorsey scoured the FA slot WR market and saw this as the best option.
well not neccessarily, look at evans deal. There is typically guaranteed money on top of a signing bonus. In a 60 million dollar deal for example, the signing bonus may be for 14 and the guaranteed portion total(including the signing bonus) is 33.
but even apart from this if you sign a guy to a big signing bonus and cut him after a year or two, thats damn expensive too because in those cases the per year rate you paid him comes out to well above what it costs to even tag someone.
And landry isnt dumb...he knows he is playing on a tag with 16 guaranteed. What you said about tagged guys is true, but moreso true for the truly elite tagged player. Someone like antonio brown woudnt be interested in making 16 million on a one year tag. But jarvis landry? Sure....thats doable for him because he is not that caliber of player. And now when a good but not truly outstanding player carries a tag they have leverage. Just like the team has leverage with a tag over a brown-like player.
well not neccessarily, look at evans deal. There is typically guaranteed money on top of a signing bonus. In a 60 million dollar deal for example, the signing bonus may be for 14 and the guaranteed portion total(including the signing bonus) is 33.
but even apart from this if you sign a guy to a big signing bonus and cut him after a year or two, thats damn expensive too because in those cases the per year rate you paid him comes out to well above what it costs to even tag someone.
And landry isnt dumb...he knows he is playing on a tag with 16 guaranteed. What you said about tagged guys is true, but moreso true for the truly elite tagged player. Someone like antonio brown woudnt be interested in making 16 million on a one year tag. But jarvis landry? Sure....thats doable for him because he is not that caliber of player. And now when a good but not truly outstanding player carries a tag they have leverage. Just like the team has leverage with a tag over a brown-like player.
The meat and potatoes is in the fine print.
Sure there likely another bonus but only if Evans is on the team. Tampa will have an option to pick it up or not. Evans will be 28 in the 4th year of his contract before the regular season starts in September.
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Of course NE did when they signed a WR with a Pro Bowl background. You don't think they paid big cake for Randy Moss?
And let's clarify some stuff here Taco. Wes Welker wasn't a Pro Bowl player when he arrived in NE while Danny Amendola was an undrafted Special Teamer before he arrived. Chris Hogan played lacrosse in college so he was just getting acclimated to a little situational football and fill in duty in Buffalo prior to NE.
I'm so pumped up - I'm not allowed to give out any more cyber fanny pats. I'm in time out man!
ummm...you may want to look up what NE actually paid moss(when he redid his contract) his first year there. I think you will be surprised.
That aside, are you honestly comparing Randy moss to Jarvis Landry? One of the(if not the?) greatest single offensive difference makers in nfl history to a pretty good slot reciever? really?
ummm...you may want to look up what NE actually paid moss(when he redid his contract) his first year there. I think you will be surprised.
That aside, are you honestly comparing Randy moss to Jarvis Landry? One of the(if not the?) greatest single offensive difference makers in nfl history to a pretty good slot reciever? really?
Which high school debate team trick do I tackle first here? First, I see why you chose not to use cut and paste so allow me: 2008: New England Patriots wide receiver Randy Moss signs a 3-year, $27 million contract. And that's 11 years ago before salaries have increased considerably. The final year of that contract (2010) - he also played for 2 other teams beside NE (Minn and TN). Not to ruin the hero's parade you're trying to throw the guy here; but could that have been because some someone's skill set went sky diving without a parachute? You forgot to include mention that he left NE dissatisfied over not receiving a new contract before the season.
Second, if I group both guys as Pro Bowl WRs/perceived #1 FA WR available (by their taker) - I'm placing them both in the same category while you're surgically repairing context to me saying Landry is having a better career. Randy Moss wasn't making Pro Bowls (just prior to NE) when he played on the Raiders, I mean sat out with soft tissue injuries for the duration of time with a non-playoff caliber team. So, exactly how does one sand bag? "Randy, what's your pain and discomfort on a scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being most painful)?" Oh, it's a 10 can you see my limp? "Yeah, I got your limp right here - you can sit out as usual." I'd say that's quite a bit different than a guy that played in all 16 games during all 4 years of his career in a world of buyer beware. When Randy went to NE - he also wasn't 25 years old and coming off a season with 112 receptions. It was a troubled soul part of his career which I'm sure you'll conveniently forget for the sake of the quick sand you're trying to sell us.
Third, when Jake Reed and Cris Carter started outside in Minnesota - who was the young guy in the 84 jersey playing SLOT Receiver during the first 4 years of his career? Another similarity? Both guys aren't LIMITED to the slot every down. Why? 1 guy is a 6'4" freak and the other is a compact 5'11" 208 lb WR that allowed them to line up outside about 25-30% of the time.
The biggest drawback to the Randy Moss mentality of "I before team" was if things weren't going well for a franchise - he wasn't going to jeopardize his career for that kind of team just to help them win a few more games. Now, why would I bring this kind of thing up especially when a guy like Kenny Brat just got retained by NE?
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Couldn't agree more Aggies! He's the free agent I wanted most.
And by that, I meant way back when he was going to be a free agent prior to Miami slapping the tag on him and temporarily crushing my hopes. He's a proven WR at a Pro Bowl level. Not counting the supplemental draft - try to think back to the last time Cleveland DRAFTED a Pro Bowl WR. I go all the way back to BC (Before Cellphones).
Well....I think Braylon did make the Pro Bowl in 2007....but that is the only guy since like Webster Slaughter.
Well....I think Braylon did make the Pro Bowl in 2007....but that is the only guy since like Webster Slaughter.
Good job by you Gips!
I forgot about the 1 year all the planets and stars aligned for our 3rd overall pick at WR. 16 TD receptions in that 10 win season where another 3rd overall pick Joe Thomas protected the blind side of QB. After Braylon worked his tail off rehabbing the surgically reconstructed knee - he showed up to that 2007 season focused and determined to prove why he was a 3rd overall pick. Unfortunately, he never repeated that level of focus and determination again or he would have stayed here or in the brighter lights - bigger cities after Cleveland longer than a cup of coffee or 2.
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