Baker Mayfield Thread
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I have legitimate concerns we're going to draft Allen. While I'm obviously not a pro scout, I feel like I've been right way more than wrong when diagnosing qb's. For instance, I hated every single QB we've drafted. No matter how many times I tried to convince myself otherwise. And what do you know? They all sucked. When watching Allen, my "he's going to be a colossal bust" alarm goes off.
The other 3, Baker, Rosen, Darnold, could make me happy after draft day. Baker is still the choice for me, and his firey attitude and precision accuracy make me believe he's got the goods. Baker is fast enough to run read-option, strong enough to throw everything, and has the moxie to elevate us from the toilet bowl.
If it wasn't for 3 facts I would draft Rosen in a heartbeat.
1. 2 concussions in HS
2. 2 concussions in college
3. Father is a doctor and you can bet Josh will give up football in a NY minute if his father advises him to do so once he's made a few $Mil. That might be only a season if we take him first overall.
If it wasn't for 3 facts I would draft Rosen in a heartbeat.
1. 2 concussions in HS
2. 2 concussions in college
3. Father is a doctor and you can bet Josh will give up football in a NY minute if his father advises him to do so once he's made a few $Mil. That might be only a season if we take him first overall.
Speaking a NY minute, it doesn't get any better at #2 overall. Nobody had worse pass pro than the NY Football Giants in 2017. And if they go QB at #2 overall, they're neglecting the best possible immediate help at protecting a 1st round QB investment.
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Concussion is far worse in terms of football than any other injury to overcome as a lifelong aftereffect.
Concussion is far worse in terms of football than any other injury to overcome as a lifelong aftereffect.
Absolutely, and I totally get why people hesitate to back Rosen due to injury concerns.
But it's still interesting to note that Rosen isn't the only rich kid from California whose dad is a doctor.
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If it wasn't for 3 facts I would draft Rosen in a heartbeat.
1. 2 concussions in HS
2. 2 concussions in college
3. Father is a doctor and you can bet Josh will give up football in a NY minute if his father advises him to do so once he's made a few $Mil. That might be only a season if we take him first overall.
You might be absolutely correct about this, but here's a little fact many people on here probably don't know (and I didn't either until recently):
There's a QB in the NFL who is from California, comes from money, and his father is a doctor (chiropractor)... His name is Aaron Rodgers. Anyone think Rodgers is retiring anytime soon because of his season-ending injury last season?
There's a QB in the NFL who is from California, comes from money, and his father is a doctor (chiropractor)... His name is Aaron Rodgers. Anyone think Rodgers is retiring anytime soon because of his season-ending injury last season?
Maybe a Mall Doctor
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I mean do's anyone think that the practice of chiropractology is real medicine ? do you need to go to med school ? or just take a online course
I mean do's anyone think that the practice of chiropractology is real medicine ? do you need to go to med school ? or just take a online course
Actually the AMA Lobby has made sure that chiropractic school is really really hard. Keep the riff-raff out and cut down on competition. Personally I don't think Chiropractic is anywhere near as useful as actual Physician or DO practiced medicine but... It ain't a cakewalk.
WSS
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I mean do's anyone think that the practice of chiropractology is real medicine ? do you need to go to med school ? or just take a online course
Actually the AMA Lobby has made sure that chiropractic school is really really hard. Keep the riff-raff out and cut down on competition. Personally I don't think Chiropractic is anywhere near as useful as actual Physician or DO practiced medicine but... It ain't a cakewalk.
WSS
Actually the AMA Lobby has made sure that chiropractic school is really really hard. Keep the riff-raff out and cut down on competition. Personally I don't think Chiropractic is anywhere near as useful as actual Physician or DO practiced medicine but... It ain't a cakewalk.
WSS
ahh i thought it was just oils and incantations
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Actually the AMA Lobby has made sure that chiropractic school is really really hard. Keep the riff-raff out and cut down on competition. Personally I don't think Chiropractic is anywhere near as useful as actual Physician or DO practiced medicine but... It ain't a cakewalk.
WSS
ahh i thought it was just oils and incantations
ahh i thought it was just oils and incantations
To an extent I think you are right but still the training is really stringent. Also ... Remember that the American public is addicted to Medicine. I think in many cases maybe even most, the ailments that befall the General Public will probably get better on their own. My neck hurts or my back hurts and I go to see chiropractor it feels better for a while. I'm not thinking that it's curing anyting but what the hell? How many guys do we know that have had back surgery that are worse off afterwards?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
If true, then what did Palmer fix? QB guru's don't fix "INTs". And I have the proof...
As a rookie Watson threw 8 INTs in seven games.
Way to deviate from your opinion that 30 INTs in his final 2 seasons at Clemson = zero to work on for a prospect heading to an NFL offense. Nice job of leaving out the 19 TD passes he threw as a wide eyed rookie in your quest to prove all his time spent with Jordan Palmer was just a waste of time. That brings the TD:INT ratio to a very inconvenient 19:8 for you while Houston improved to being the top scoring offense in 5 of the 7 weeks Watson started. Not bad considering what they looked like in his absence. I dare say I saw an expedited learning curve that made him happy he spent all that off-season time with Jordan Palmer while you need to assure yourself it was all just a complete waste of time. You don't teach a guy to just prevent INTs - you teach him a holistic approach to an NFL passing game vrs complicated NFL defenses that college barnball offenses ill-prepare their QBs for today. Hopefully it shows up in the type of TD:INT ratio Houston was very fond of from their rookie QB. That NFL starting point even compares favorably to Peyton Manning's 26 TDs:28 INTs.
In your see no evil hear no evil defense of Rosen - Jordan Palmer has be a waste of time since Darnold is working with him while Rosen is not. Gee, who didn't see this one coming? Have you seen the video the NFL Channel keeps showing about the conversation Rosen had with Aaron Rodgers? Rodgers is telling him about a hop and a hitch he adds to certain occasions/scenarios that he finds helpful. Have you had a chance to straighten him out yet?
This conversation started out with me agreeing with you that Darnold has a lot to work on so I didn't expect your knees to buckle so easily when I piggybacked on. While I've come a long way on Rosen, I don't think he's as consistent the people looking down their noses at Darnold think he is. And while I'm at it, UCLA has an OT that is projected to go in rd 1 or 2 while Athlon Draft Guide says they have the 5th best OG slated to go in rd 3 or 4. Not bad considering I kept hearing Poor Rosen allegedly never gets any help from his teammates. Who's getting drafted from USC's line this year? If I get asked by a Rosen fan what if you they swapped teams. I ask does Rosen's football career end the day Ohio State's pass rush decimates USC's pass pro up front? Just to illustrate the difference in Darnold's pass pro and adversity from 2016 to 2017 - he was only sacked 6 times in 2016 vrs 29 times in 2017. That 2017 volume doesn't sound like protection Rosen would prefer or thrive in especially considering how many more concussions he can afford.
Here's a statistical comparison of Darnold and Rosen in spite of their overall experience and foot polish:
Darnold 20 wins 4 los 7229 yds 8.5 ypa 64.9 cmp% 57 TD 22 INT 332 ydrus 7 TD rush 21 fum 35 sacksRosen 17 wins 13 los 9339 yds 8.0 ypa 60.9 cmp% 59 TD 26 INT -153 ydrus 6 TD rush 20 fum 53 sacks
Way to deviate from your opinion that 30 INTs in his final 2 seasons at Clemson = zero to work on for a prospect heading to an NFL offense. Nice job of leaving out the 19 TD passes he threw as a wide eyed rookie in your quest to prove all his time spent with Jordan Palmer was just a waste of time. That brings the TD:INT ratio to a very inconvenient 19:8 for you while Houston improved to being the top scoring offense in 5 of the 7 weeks Watson started. Not bad considering what they looked like in his absence. I dare say I saw an expedited learning curve that made him happy he spent all that off-season time with Jordan Palmer while you need to assure yourself it was all just a complete waste of time. You don't teach a guy to just prevent INTs - you teach him a holistic approach to an NFL passing game vrs complicated NFL defenses that college barnball offenses ill-prepare their QBs for today. Hopefully it shows up in the type of TD:INT ratio Houston was very fond of from their rookie QB. That NFL starting point even compares favorably to Peyton Manning's 26 TDs:28 INTs.
In your see no evil hear no evil defense of Rosen - Jordan Palmer has be a waste of time since Darnold is working with him while Rosen is not. Gee, who didn't see this one coming? Have you seen the video the NFL Channel keeps showing about the conversation Rosen had with Aaron Rodgers? Rodgers is telling him about a hop and a hitch he adds to certain occasions/scenarios that he finds helpful. Have you had a chance to straighten him out yet?
This conversation started out with me agreeing with you that Darnold has a lot to work on so I didn't expect your knees to buckle so easily when I piggybacked on. While I've come a long way on Rosen, I don't think he's as consistent the people looking down their noses at Darnold think he is. And while I'm at it, UCLA has an OT that is projected to go in rd 1 or 2 while Athlon Draft Guide says they have the 5th best OG slated to go in rd 3 or 4. Not bad considering I kept hearing Poor Rosen allegedly never gets any help from his teammates. Who's getting drafted from USC's line this year? If I get asked by a Rosen fan what if you they swapped teams. I ask does Rosen's football career end the day Ohio State's pass rush decimates USC's pass pro up front? Just to illustrate the difference in Darnold's pass pro and adversity from 2016 to 2017 - he was only sacked 6 times in 2016 vrs 29 times in 2017. That 2017 volume doesn't sound like protection Rosen would prefer or thrive in especially considering how many more concussions he can afford.
Here's a statistical comparison of Darnold and Rosen in spite of their overall experience and foot polish:
Darnold 20 wins 4 los 7229 yds 8.5 ypa 64.9 cmp% 57 TD 22 INT 332 ydrus 7 TD rush 21 fum 35 sacksRosen 17 wins 13 los 9339 yds 8.0 ypa 60.9 cmp% 59 TD 26 INT -153 ydrus 6 TD rush 20 fum 53 sacks
Wow... I don't think I was the one to initially raise the INTs as some kind of evidence of something, Flugs. Since I wasn't I'm not sure how I can deviate from it. I merely demonstrated that Watson's 2017 was not a significant improvement over his college performance.
But for and to complete the record on that point... Watson's TD:INT at Clemson was 90:32... nearly 3:1. Still waiting for your observation of what Palmer "fixed" to enable Watson's regression... I mean "expedited learning curve" to a lower ratio.
Haven't seen the "hop n hitch" segment. Do you think it is why Darnold hopped into the tops of his drops at his Pro Day?
But going back further... I never questioned Palmer's credentials, just your assertion that Watson had issues that needed fixing. He was pretty complete to my eye coming out. Only concerns I had were injury and a low ceiling. So far I think I'm 2 fer 2.... but it's early yet.
As for supporting casts... yes, one QB had an overrated OT and a Day 3 OG. The other had a Day 2 RB and Day 3 WR. And then there's the Defense comparisons... the #117 allowing 36.6 ppg and the #60 allowing 26.1. Since I raised the point you can guess whose is whose. Outside of drop percentage stuff I think this is the first time I've addressed supporting casts, but it may not be. I doubt Rosen and his 26 sacks in 2017 felt seriously advantaged vs. Darnold's 29.
As for the stat line comparison... I've seen it. That's why I've been trying to cozy up to Darnold... I just can't get there...
But thanks for trying to help... only buckled my right knee, but it's prone to that anyway...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Way to deviate from your opinion that 30 INTs in his final 2 seasons at Clemson = zero to work on for a prospect heading to an NFL offense. Nice job of leaving out the 19 TD passes he threw as a wide eyed rookie in your quest to prove all his time spent with Jordan Palmer was just a waste of time. That brings the TD:INT ratio to a very inconvenient 19:8 for you while Houston improved to being the top scoring offense in 5 of the 7 weeks Watson started. Not bad considering what they looked like in his absence. I dare say I saw an expedited learning curve that made him happy he spent all that off-season time with Jordan Palmer while you need to assure yourself it was all just a complete waste of time. You don't teach a guy to just prevent INTs - you teach him a holistic approach to an NFL passing game vrs complicated NFL defenses that college barnball offenses ill-prepare their QBs for today. Hopefully it shows up in the type of TD:INT ratio Houston was very fond of from their rookie QB. That NFL starting point even compares favorably to Peyton Manning's 26 TDs:28 INTs.
In your see no evil hear no evil defense of Rosen - Jordan Palmer has be a waste of time since Darnold is working with him while Rosen is not. Gee, who didn't see this one coming? Have you seen the video the NFL Channel keeps showing about the conversation Rosen had with Aaron Rodgers? Rodgers is telling him about a hop and a hitch he adds to certain occasions/scenarios that he finds helpful. Have you had a chance to straighten him out yet?
This conversation started out with me agreeing with you that Darnold has a lot to work on so I didn't expect your knees to buckle so easily when I piggybacked on. While I've come a long way on Rosen, I don't think he's as consistent the people looking down their noses at Darnold think he is. And while I'm at it, UCLA has an OT that is projected to go in rd 1 or 2 while Athlon Draft Guide says they have the 5th best OG slated to go in rd 3 or 4. Not bad considering I kept hearing Poor Rosen allegedly never gets any help from his teammates. Who's getting drafted from USC's line this year? If I get asked by a Rosen fan what if you they swapped teams. I ask does Rosen's football career end the day Ohio State's pass rush decimates USC's pass pro up front? Just to illustrate the difference in Darnold's pass pro and adversity from 2016 to 2017 - he was only sacked 6 times in 2016 vrs 29 times in 2017. That 2017 volume doesn't sound like protection Rosen would prefer or thrive in especially considering how many more concussions he can afford.
Here's a statistical comparison of Darnold and Rosen in spite of their overall experience and foot polish:
Darnold 20 wins 4 los 7229 yds 8.5 ypa 64.9 cmp% 57 TD 22 INT 332 ydrus 7 TD rush 21 fum 35 sacksRosen 17 wins 13 los 9339 yds 8.0 ypa 60.9 cmp% 59 TD 26 INT -153 ydrus 6 TD rush 20 fum 53 sacks
Wow... I don't think I was the one to initially raise the INTs as some kind of evidence of something, Flugs. Since I wasn't I'm not sure how I can deviate from it. I merely demonstrated that Watson's 2017 was not a significant improvement over his college performance.
But for and to complete the record on that point... Watson's TD:INT at Clemson was 90:32... nearly 3:1. Still waiting for your observation of what Palmer "fixed" to enable Watson's regression... I mean "expedited learning curve" to a lower ratio.
Haven't seen the "hop n hitch" segment. Do you think it is why Darnold hopped into the tops of his drops at his Pro Day?
But going back further... I never questioned Palmer's credentials, just your assertion that Watson had issues that needed fixing. He was pretty complete to my eye coming out. Only concerns I had were injury and a low ceiling. So far I think I'm 2 fer 2.... but it's early yet.
As for supporting casts... yes, one QB had an overrated OT and a Day 3 OG. The other had a Day 2 RB and Day 3 WR. And then there's the Defense comparisons... the #117 allowing 36.6 ppg and the #60 allowing 26.1. Since I raised the point you can guess whose is whose. Outside of drop percentage stuff I think this is the first time I've addressed supporting casts, but it may not be. I doubt Rosen and his 26 sacks in 2017 felt seriously advantaged vs. Darnold's 29.
As for the stat line comparison... I've seen it. That's why I've been trying to cozy up to Darnold... I just can't get there...
But thanks for trying to help... only buckled my right knee, but it's prone to that anyway...
Wow... I don't think I was the one to initially raise the INTs as some kind of evidence of something, Flugs. Since I wasn't I'm not sure how I can deviate from it. I merely demonstrated that Watson's 2017 was not a significant improvement over his college performance.
But for and to complete the record on that point... Watson's TD:INT at Clemson was 90:32... nearly 3:1. Still waiting for your observation of what Palmer "fixed" to enable Watson's regression... I mean "expedited learning curve" to a lower ratio.
Haven't seen the "hop n hitch" segment. Do you think it is why Darnold hopped into the tops of his drops at his Pro Day?
But going back further... I never questioned Palmer's credentials, just your assertion that Watson had issues that needed fixing. He was pretty complete to my eye coming out. Only concerns I had were injury and a low ceiling. So far I think I'm 2 fer 2.... but it's early yet.
As for supporting casts... yes, one QB had an overrated OT and a Day 3 OG. The other had a Day 2 RB and Day 3 WR. And then there's the Defense comparisons... the #117 allowing 36.6 ppg and the #60 allowing 26.1. Since I raised the point you can guess whose is whose. Outside of drop percentage stuff I think this is the first time I've addressed supporting casts, but it may not be. I doubt Rosen and his 26 sacks in 2017 felt seriously advantaged vs. Darnold's 29.
As for the stat line comparison... I've seen it. That's why I've been trying to cozy up to Darnold... I just can't get there...
But thanks for trying to help... only buckled my right knee, but it's prone to that anyway...
Like other young QBs like Mitch L. Trubisky and Jameis Winston are finding out - the NFL doesn't provide the same give-me's the ACC did. That being the case a 19 TD:8 INT in just 7 games was a pretty good start.
The defense at UCLA and USC won't be what Darnold and Rosen are being evaluated by so they don't matter to me.
I just think your competitive side that only has eyes for Rosen looks harder for flaws in others than it is willing to do with him. I could be wrong with that though.
I like the way you closed strong above Tour. That being the case, I'll make sure I give your right knee a better warning next time I go piggyback.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
ahh i thought it was just oils and incantations
To an extent I think you are right but still the training is really stringent. Also ... Remember that the American public is addicted to Medicine. I think in many cases maybe even most, the ailments that befall the General Public will probably get better on their own. My neck hurts or my back hurts and I go to see chiropractor it feels better for a while. I'm not thinking that it's curing anyting but what the hell? How many guys do we know that have had back surgery that are worse off afterwards?
WSS
To an extent I think you are right but still the training is really stringent. Also ... Remember that the American public is addicted to Medicine. I think in many cases maybe even most, the ailments that befall the General Public will probably get better on their own. My neck hurts or my back hurts and I go to see chiropractor it feels better for a while. I'm not thinking that it's curing anyting but what the hell? How many guys do we know that have had back surgery that are worse off afterwards?
WSS
Steve just sees a masseuse that gives him a happy ending and that cures all his ailmentsSteve just sees a masseuse that gives him a happy ending and that cures all his ailments
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I'd take Baker over Rosen
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I'd take Baker over Rosen
Even should Rosen be given a clean bill of health?!
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I'd take Baker over Rosen
Even should Rosen be given a clean bill of health?!
Even should Rosen be given a clean bill of health?!
I don't think it's so much a clean bill of health today as it is that there's been a history of concussions. The kid is reasonably well-to-do and obviously pretty smart. Next ding on the head and he may well decide not to risk ending up like Muhammad Ali. Of course that's Dime Store psychology and pure speculation but...
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Wow... I don't think I was the one to initially raise the INTs as some kind of evidence of something, Flugs. Since I wasn't I'm not sure how I can deviate from it. I merely demonstrated that Watson's 2017 was not a significant improvement over his college performance.
But for and to complete the record on that point... Watson's TD:INT at Clemson was 90:32... nearly 3:1. Still waiting for your observation of what Palmer "fixed" to enable Watson's regression... I mean "expedited learning curve" to a lower ratio.
Haven't seen the "hop n hitch" segment. Do you think it is why Darnold hopped into the tops of his drops at his Pro Day?
But going back further... I never questioned Palmer's credentials, just your assertion that Watson had issues that needed fixing. He was pretty complete to my eye coming out. Only concerns I had were injury and a low ceiling. So far I think I'm 2 fer 2.... but it's early yet.
As for supporting casts... yes, one QB had an overrated OT and a Day 3 OG. The other had a Day 2 RB and Day 3 WR. And then there's the Defense comparisons... the #117 allowing 36.6 ppg and the #60 allowing 26.1. Since I raised the point you can guess whose is whose. Outside of drop percentage stuff I think this is the first time I've addressed supporting casts, but it may not be. I doubt Rosen and his 26 sacks in 2017 felt seriously advantaged vs. Darnold's 29.
As for the stat line comparison... I've seen it. That's why I've been trying to cozy up to Darnold... I just can't get there...
But thanks for trying to help... only buckled my right knee, but it's prone to that anyway...
Like other young QBs like Mitch L. Trubisky and Jameis Winston are finding out - the NFL doesn't provide the same give-me's the ACC did. That being the case a 19 TD:8 INT in just 7 games was a pretty good start.
The defense at UCLA and USC won't be what Darnold and Rosen are being evaluated by so they don't matter to me.
I just think your competitive side that only has eyes for Rosen looks harder for flaws in others than it is willing to do with him. I could be wrong with that though.
I like the way you closed strong above Tour. That being the case, I'll make sure I give your right knee a better warning next time I go piggyback.
Like other young QBs like Mitch L. Trubisky and Jameis Winston are finding out - the NFL doesn't provide the same give-me's the ACC did. That being the case a 19 TD:8 INT in just 7 games was a pretty good start.
The defense at UCLA and USC won't be what Darnold and Rosen are being evaluated by so they don't matter to me.
I just think your competitive side that only has eyes for Rosen looks harder for flaws in others than it is willing to do with him. I could be wrong with that though.
I like the way you closed strong above Tour. That being the case, I'll make sure I give your right knee a better warning next time I go piggyback.
Fair enough... and not to reignite things, but...
- I fail to see the rationale for drawing a line at the Defenses once team strength is brought into the QB evaluation equation.
- I don't see discussions here as a "competition"... just point/counterpoint... and I have no stake in one QB over another.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Even should Rosen be given a clean bill of health?!
I don't think it's so much a clean bill of health today as it is that there's been a history of concussions. The kid is reasonably well-to-do and obviously pretty smart. Next ding on the head and he may well decide not to risk ending up like Muhammad Ali. Of course that's Dime Store psychology and pure speculation but...
WSS
I don't think it's so much a clean bill of health today as it is that there's been a history of concussions. The kid is reasonably well-to-do and obviously pretty smart. Next ding on the head and he may well decide not to risk ending up like Muhammad Ali. Of course that's Dime Store psychology and pure speculation but...
WSS
Fair point. I guess it boils down to drive and as highlighted, Aaron Rodgers is pretty well off yet hasn't thrown in the towel.
If the neurologist gives the OK though, it's going to be a bitter pill for me to swallow should we take any other QB.
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I don't think it's so much a clean bill of health today as it is that there's been a history of concussions. The kid is reasonably well-to-do and obviously pretty smart. Next ding on the head and he may well decide not to risk ending up like Muhammad Ali. Of course that's Dime Store psychology and pure speculation but...
WSS
Fair point. I guess it boils down to drive and as highlighted, Aaron Rodgers is pretty well off yet hasn't thrown in the towel.
If the neurologist gives the OK though, it's going to be a bitter pill for me to swallow should we take any other QB.
Fair point. I guess it boils down to drive and as highlighted, Aaron Rodgers is pretty well off yet hasn't thrown in the towel.
If the neurologist gives the OK though, it's going to be a bitter pill for me to swallow should we take any other QB.
Sure, and after the last few decades one can't help but be a little gun-shy about a #1 first-round quarterback investment.
WSS
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I'd take Baker over Rosen
Even should Rosen be given a clean bill of health?!
Even should Rosen be given a clean bill of health?!
I don't like Rosen's concussion history. Throw in close family in the medical profession and remove the need for money, and that means he'll hang it up if he's concerned about a concussion. Throw in the attitude stuff, and I just don't want him. I'd rather take a flier on Baker and roll with his intangibles.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody!
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