Clay Matthews & Doug Dieken H.O.F. worthy?
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Clay is still looking good for a guy his age. . .
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Clay yes.. Diek.. not so much
D.I.C.K Shafrath far more HOF worth than Dieken.
Defense & Fumbles
- * Selected to Pro Bowl, + First-Team All-Pro
Games Def Interceptions Fumbles Sacks & Tackles Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty AV Career 176 158 0 3 27 0 115 1959 22 CLE 80 12 0 1960 23 CLE LT 77 12 12 8 1961 24 CLE LT 77 13 13 0 1 0 0 7 1962 25 CLE LT 77 14 14 7 1963*+ 26 CLE LT 77 14 14 0 1 0 0 12 1964*+ 27 CLE LT 77 14 14 15 1965*+ 28 CLE LT 77 14 14 13 1966* 29 CLE LT 77 13 13 11 1967* 30 CLE LT 77 14 13 8 1968* 31 CLE LT 77 14 14 10 1969+ 32 CLE LT 77 14 14 12 1970 33 CLE LT 77 14 14 0 1 27 0 6 1971 34 CLE LT 77 14 9 6 8 time Pro Bowler, 4 time First Team All Pro.
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Here perhaps is the most HOF worth player in NFL history who is not in the HOF. Former OSU tackle Jim Tyrer:
Defense & Fumbles
Games Def Interceptions Fumbles Sacks & Tackles Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty AV 1961 22 DTX 77 14 13 3 1962* 23 DTX LT 77 14 0 10 1963* 24 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1964* 25 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1965*+ 26 KAN LT 77 14 0 11 1966*+ 27 KAN LT 77 14 0 13 1967+ 28 KAN LT 77 14 0 1 3 0 13 1968*+ 29 KAN LT 77 14 14 13 1969*+ 30 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1970*+ 31 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1971* 32 KAN LT 77 14 14 0 1 0 0 9 1972 33 KAN LT 77 14 14 5 1973 34 KAN LT 77 12 12 5 1974 35 WAS t 71 14 1 9 Pro Bowls. 6 time First team All Pro.
Does anyone want to take a guess as to why he is not in the HOF? There is, pretty much, a specific reason.
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Here perhaps is the most HOF worth player in NFL history who is not in the HOF. Former OSU tackle Jim Tyrer:
Defense & Fumbles
Games Def Interceptions Fumbles Sacks & Tackles Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty AV 1961 22 DTX 77 14 13 3 1962* 23 DTX LT 77 14 0 10 1963* 24 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1964* 25 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1965*+ 26 KAN LT 77 14 0 11 1966*+ 27 KAN LT 77 14 0 13 1967+ 28 KAN LT 77 14 0 1 3 0 13 1968*+ 29 KAN LT 77 14 14 13 1969*+ 30 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1970*+ 31 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1971* 32 KAN LT 77 14 14 0 1 0 0 9 1972 33 KAN LT 77 14 14 5 1973 34 KAN LT 77 12 12 5 1974 35 WAS t 71 14 1 9 Pro Bowls. 6 time First team All Pro.
Does anyone want to take a guess as to why he is not in the HOF? There is, pretty much, a specific reason.
Here perhaps is the most HOF worth player in NFL history who is not in the HOF. Former OSU tackle Jim Tyrer:
Defense & Fumbles
Games Def Interceptions Fumbles Sacks & Tackles Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty AV 1961 22 DTX 77 14 13 3 1962* 23 DTX LT 77 14 0 10 1963* 24 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1964* 25 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1965*+ 26 KAN LT 77 14 0 11 1966*+ 27 KAN LT 77 14 0 13 1967+ 28 KAN LT 77 14 0 1 3 0 13 1968*+ 29 KAN LT 77 14 14 13 1969*+ 30 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1970*+ 31 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1971* 32 KAN LT 77 14 14 0 1 0 0 9 1972 33 KAN LT 77 14 14 5 1973 34 KAN LT 77 12 12 5 1974 35 WAS t 71 14 1 9 Pro Bowls. 6 time First team All Pro.
Does anyone want to take a guess as to why he is not in the HOF? There is, pretty much, a specific reason.
Murder/Suicide.
I think Clay deserves the Hall, but since he was an everydown versatile linebacker and not a pass rush specialist it is hard to to get past other guys.
Dieken belongs in the Browns Ring of Honor, but is no HOFer. Still one of my favorites.
Zombo
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Clay Matthews has the family name and reputation working for him.
Dieken, Shafrath and other particularly older NFL players have a harder road there. We diehard Cleveland fans know them many current voters not so much.
Seniors
Every other year, two Seniors finalists can be named, with only one being named in alternating years. (The number of Contributor finalists flip-flops; when there are two Seniors, there is one Contributor, and vice-versa.) In 2018, two Seniors were nominated and inducted (Jerry Kramer and Robert Brazile), meaning only one Seniors finalist will be on the ballot for 2019. Put your money on Drew Pearson, WR, Cowboys. Pearson was most recently put back on the map by his antics at the 2017 NFL Draft, but one of the top players of the 1970s didn't actually need the extra pub. At least, not in theory. Here's a fun fact (well, unless you are Drew Pearson
Of all the skill-position players to have made the first-team All-Decade squads of the 1930s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s OR '90s, Pearson is the only one to not be in Hall of Fame. Oh, and good luck finding a more clutch player in NFL history. Ask Viking fans. .
Contributors
So, as explained above with a compass, protractor and TI-81 graphing calculator, two Contributor finalists will be allowed in 2019. Look for the Contributor nominees to be Broncos owner Pat Bowlen and Cowboys personnel czar Gil Brandt. John Elway, among others, has pushed loudly for Bowlen. Bowlen's work off the field, as well as the winners his employees produced on it, merits his inclusion. Feel strongly that this is the year for Bowlen.
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The thing about Clay Mathews.. He excelled in both the 34 and 43 defenses... That's pretty hard to do in any era...
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Here perhaps is the most HOF worth player in NFL history who is not in the HOF. Former OSU tackle Jim Tyrer:
Defense & Fumbles
Games Def Interceptions Fumbles Sacks & Tackles Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty AV 1961 22 DTX 77 14 13 3 1962* 23 DTX LT 77 14 0 10 1963* 24 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1964* 25 KAN LT 77 14 0 10 1965*+ 26 KAN LT 77 14 0 11 1966*+ 27 KAN LT 77 14 0 13 1967+ 28 KAN LT 77 14 0 1 3 0 13 1968*+ 29 KAN LT 77 14 14 13 1969*+ 30 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1970*+ 31 KAN LT 77 14 14 11 1971* 32 KAN LT 77 14 14 0 1 0 0 9 1972 33 KAN LT 77 14 14 5 1973 34 KAN LT 77 12 12 5 1974 35 WAS t 71 14 1 9 Pro Bowls. 6 time First team All Pro.
Does anyone want to take a guess as to why he is not in the HOF? There is, pretty much, a specific reason.
Murder/Suicide.
I think Clay deserves the Hall, but since he was an everydown versatile linebacker and not a pass rush specialist it is hard to to get past other guys.
Dieken belongs in the Browns Ring of Honor, but is no HOFer. Still one of my favorites.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Murder/Suicide.
Right. Not too long after his career ended (or maybe in fact it did not end), he killed his wife and himself. So he was given absolutely no HOF consideration. So, I guess the moral of the story is that if you are going to kill....do it after you have been inducted (OJ).
I think Clay deserves the Hall, but since he was an everydown versatile linebacker and not a pass rush specialist it is hard to to get past other guys.
So right. Guys like Kevin Greene or Charles Haley or Chris Doleman who had 100+ sacks get in, but our Clay, who had "only" 70 career sacks gets left out....even though...as you say, he was probably a better overall LB.....against the run, in coverage, etc. His son, Clay III has now surpassed him in sacks. Good player....but overall, as good as his dad? maybe not. From what I can gather, tackles is not an official NFL stat...though see my followup post on this for unofficial numbers.
Dieken belongs in the Browns Ring of Honor, but is no HOFer. Still one of my favorites.
And, again, Schafrath
Zombo
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The following is unofficial. Apparently tackles were not kept track of by the league until 1994, but before that, each team kept their own stats, so these must have been cobbled together from those stats. I can't even really give you a proper source for this, as it came off of a blog that I found:
PlayerPositionTacklesTeamsFirst YearLast Year
1.Jessie Tuggle LB 1,640 Falcons1987
2. Ray Lewis LB 1,573 Ravens1996
3.Clay Matthews LB 1,561 Browns, Falcons 1978
4.Junior Seau LB 1,524 Chargers, Dolphins, Patriots 1990
5.Kyle Clifton LB1,468 Jets 1984
6.London Fletcher LB 1,378 Rams, Bills, Redskins1998
7.Derrick Brooks LB 1,301 Buccaneers 1995
8.Hardy Nickerson LB 1,271 Steelers, Buccaneers, Jaguars, packers 1987
9.Eugene Robinson DB 1,250 Seahawks, Packers, Falcons, Panthers 1985
10.Darryl Talley LB 1,190 Bills, Falcons, Vikings1983
11.Chris Spielman LB 1,181 Lions, Bills 1988
12.Rickey Jackson LB/DE 1,173 Saints, 49ers1981
13.Darrell Green DB 1,159 Redskins 1983
14.Dennis Smith DB 1,152 Broncos 1981
15.Mike Johnson LB 1,146 Browns, Lions 1986
16.Sam Mills LB1,142 Saints, Panthers 1986
17.Donnie Edwards LB 1,133 Chiefs, Chargers 1996
18.Ken Norton LB 1,130Cowboys, 49ers 1988
19.Ronnie Lott DB 1,113 49ers, Raiders, Jets 1981
20.Zach Thomas LB 1,106 Dolphins, Cowboys 1996
Edited to highlight HOFers
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I think my above list also shows some disparity on if you play MLB vs. OLB. Chris Spielman has more total tackles than Rickey Jackson.....but Jackson makes the HOF because of his sack numbers. And you don't see Kevin Greene or Haley or Doleman on that tackles leader list.
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I think my above list also shows some disparity on if you play MLB vs. OLB. Chris Spielman has more total tackles than Rickey Jackson.....but Jackson makes the HOF because of his sack numbers. And you don't see Kevin Greene or Haley or Doleman on that tackles leader list.
I think my above list also shows some disparity on if you play MLB vs. OLB. Chris Spielman has more total tackles than Rickey Jackson.....but Jackson makes the HOF because of his sack numbers. And you don't see Kevin Greene or Haley or Doleman on that tackles leader list.
And the quality of teams/defense they played on, schemes, era etc. but still a decent overall snapshot of LBs.
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I think my above list also shows some disparity on if you play MLB vs. OLB. Chris Spielman has more total tackles than Rickey Jackson.....but Jackson makes the HOF because of his sack numbers. And you don't see Kevin Greene or Haley or Doleman on that tackles leader list.
And the quality of teams/defense they played on, schemes, era etc. but still a decent overall snapshot of LBs.
And the quality of teams/defense they played on, schemes, era etc. but still a decent overall snapshot of LBs.
Matthews played on teams/defenses as good as Rickey Jackson's Saints, as did Spielman.
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Matthews played on teams/defenses as good as Rickey Jackson's Saints, as did Spielman.
Happens a lot great players on lousy teams tend to get overlooked sometimes until the senior voting..... 1960 Dallas 1976 TB 1982 Baltimore 2008 Detroit 2017 Cleveland.
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"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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Walter Johnson was pretty badass also.. Hell... that whole unit was a surly lot...A Dline of Sherk,Johnson,Jones .. I know I'm forgetting somebody...Alzado ....Dayum.. That wasnt a bad haul on defense...
Lots of different guys tried at DE, but we were always solid in the middle with Johnson and Sherk.
Should held on to Jack Gregory, he was a good one.
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Walter Johnson was pretty badass also.. Hell... that whole unit was a surly lot...A Dline of Sherk,Johnson,Jones .. I know I'm forgetting somebody...Alzado ....Dayum.. That wasnt a bad haul on defense...
Lots of different guys tried at DE, but we were always solid in the middle with Johnson and Sherk.
Should held on to Jack Gregory, he was a good one.
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