I LOVE Smarts QBs
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@shepwrite said:
Ha!(But VY got a 6 the first time.)
I feel like such a VY for misspelling Kelly!
Yes, but VY was stressed the first test. That's why he kicked so much ass the second time.
It may have something to do with the name Vince that propels these killer aptitude scores.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
@shepwrite said:
You keep citing exceptions as if I said there have never been exceptions.Marv Levy called Jim Kelley the smartest quarterback he ever coached, and Levy was an Ivy Leaguer. It happens. I don't think McNabb is dumb and he got a low score.
But 29 of the 32 starters in this league, including every good one not named McNabb, scored between 25 (Ben) and 39 (Eli, Rodgers, and Stafford). Starters in today's NFL -- right now -- do very well on the Wonderlic with precious few exceptions. The more recent you get, the higher the scores get -- Ryan got a 32 and Stafford got a 39.
Will there be another Kelley or McNabb some day, a guy who gets a 15 but is a really smart quarterback? Sure. It happens at a rate of about one a decade, as mz the pussy pointed out.
Shep,
Alex Smith aced the thing like he aced his workout without pass rushers and corners present. GREAT mechanics folks "best workout ever" praises - BUT do those hold up when there's actual sic em? Do you know how many guys did extremely well on the test that didn't go on to start at QB?
I think Zombo said it best when he informed you that was a partial list. When you use partial information - you are skewing results. You are. Do we know how many guys that did well didn't even make teams?
Like I said, there isn't ONE asessment at Indy that measures instincts; and football is HUGE on instincts like it or not. All I know is if Indy was an exact science josh Cribbs would be playing in Canada. Alex Smith would be #1 in the league instead of 2nd or 3rd on his own depth chart. Call that an exception all you want but he was a #1 overall draft pick somebody got fired over.
Somebody like Lawrence Taylor would get a 2 on the Wonderlic and he was a stud BEFORE Parcells even shook his hand the first time. That's ALL instinct and killer instinct - and 0% #2 pencil. You DO understand instincts correlate to split second decision making right?
BTW, I mispoke on VY's record the first 2 years. He was 8-5 as a rookie (supposed to be a senior at school) and 9-5 as a second year player. That's 17-10 you want to stamp as a hollow dome for a team that had a 14 game losing streak before he started his first game in 06. If that's not enough, the Defense was 32nd ranked in 06. How many guys besides Matt Ryan in the last decade have come out of the shoot with better winning percentages for crappy teams drafting in the top 3 spots? If you've got 1 more name color me impressed. If you think the ONLY way to find smart people is through a Wonderlic - you're losing it man.
- Tom F.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Flugs, but how about this? Is it possible Young caught teams off guard until they learnt how to defense him? Once that was accomplished, the good ole DA type QB rating takes a negative effect.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
@shepwrite said:
Ha!(But VY got a 6 the first time.)
I feel like such a VY for misspelling Kelly!
Yes, but VY was stressed the first test. That's why he kicked so much ass the second time.
It may have something to do with the name Vince that propels these killer aptitude scores.
Yes, but VY was stressed the first test. That's why he kicked so much ass the second time.
It may have something to do with the name Vince that propels these killer aptitude scores.
New smack talk in the trenches
Dlineman: "Yo, what did you get on da Wonderlic Barbell Breath?"
OT: "Minus 3 squid. Hasn't stopped you from landing on your fanny every play has it?"
"Hey VY scored another TD and he's being named AFC Rookie of the Year." Uh-oh, we have late breaking news, VY was busted for a bad Wonderlic so they are removing his Rookie of the Year Honors and Tenn has had to forfeit all 17 wins he led them to in 06 and 07 that followed the 14 game losing streak. Jeff Fisher is beside himself in guilt that he was the ONLY Head Coach who drafted a QB in the top 15 spots of 06 to not lose his job. He has sent sympathy cards to Mike Shanahan and Denny Green. Rumor has it, he felt bad for Mike Nolan too about Alex so another card was sent to SF from Nashville.
- Tom F.
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Flugs, but how about this? Is it possible Young caught teams off guard until they learnt how to defense him? Once that was accomplished, the good ole DA type QB rating takes a negative effect.
Flugs, but how about this? Is it possible Young caught teams off guard until they learnt how to defense him? Once that was accomplished, the good ole DA type QB rating takes a negative effect.
SURE, but is it ALSO possible he tore his groin/hammy so he couldn't break contain and widen defenses out to help the RBs get wonderful running lanes? If VY had the same injury against USC that would have been a completely different Rose Bowl. That's like asking Favre to throw with a torn biceps tendon like he threw pre-injury. There was a difference and Thomas Jones questioned why he remained as a starter right? Injuries impact in this league.
Look Riff, I just don't agree with Shep's convictions the guy is dumb or he never makes it out of his neighborhood into UT into National Championship into 3rd overall draft pick into double digit million $ contract into rookie of the year into winning 17 of his first 26 starts. Doesn't add up as hollow dome.
Wonderlics weren't designed for innercity kids so the fact that Shep found a trend with Mcnabb from downtown Chicago, Vick, VY, etc doesn't mean SOME of them can't become the next Steve McNair or Warren Moon or Doug Williams. Do you know how long Doug Williams was labelled DUMB? Until he won a SB. I used Terry Bradshaw earlier in the Wonderlic thread to show a guy with a careeer 51.5 comp % and horrific first 5 seasons where he was labelled an imbesol. Shep would have CUT Bradshaw if he kept his current criteria that ONLY a Wonderlic can define a FOOTBALL smart player/QB. And as I mentioned Bradshaw won 4 Superbowls so WINNING defined him not #2 pencils or even a completion percentage. Otto Graham also had a less than wonderful completion percentage but he was defined by WINNING.
- Tom F. (I love smart QBs but I'd rather have a VY than an Alex Smith because one guy WINS the other didn't)
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All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
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@inspecta said:
I don't think the Wonderlic is an end all be all story of somebody's intelligence. Take my stepfather for example. The man is a nuclear engineer and basically runs one of the largest nuclear power plants in the country, he has insane amount of smarts, however if you ask him a question, he might sit there silently contemplating his answer for a good 2-3 minutes before he speaks. He just happens to take his time before answering any question. That's not to say he can't think on his feet. When you have a reactor scram on you you have to think VERY quickly or all the residents in southeastern NC might have that healthy green glow to them. It just so happens that for the most part he takes his time.Others might have test anxiety and just not test well, however when you put a football in their hands all that pressure melts away and they do what they need to do to win.
Sure it's a nice guideline to have when trying to get some sort of bead on a QB's intelligence, but to use it as the end all be all determination is folly.
I think sitting down and just simply talking to a guy will give you a better indication of his intelligence than some timed test.
I'm sure guys like Kelly, Young and Bradshaw were great conveyors of IQ one on one.
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@shepwrite said:
It's all about playing the numbers, guys. Sure, there are exceptions... but it's pretty damn accurate at gauging basic intelligence, or aptitude, a necessity for playing QB in today's NFL.Didn't McNabb also run a bunch of different offenses at Cuse? He was a pretty football smart guy there. Young ran an offense of drop back, look at primary, if not wide open run really fast where the guys with other jerseys weren't.
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All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
ME TOO. That's why you see that in the title of this thread. Good point. Why don't I give you the BEST example of why I don't put too much stock in the Wonderlic? I am going to compare the Wonderlic genius passer to the hollow dome that flicks his wrist. This should prove once and for all how much the Wonderlic REALLY means to 2 YOUNG QBs literally and figuratively:
Steve Young's first 2 years in the NFL which started at age 24
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int
1985 24 TAM QB 8 5 5 1-4-0 72 138 52.2 935 3 8
1986 25 TAM QB 8 14 14 2-12-0 195 363 53.7 2282 8 13
Vince Young's first 2 years in the NFL which started at age 23
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int
2006 23 TEN QB 10 15 13 8-5-0 184 357 51.5 2199 12 13
2007 24 TEN QB 10 15 15 9-6-0 238 382 62.3 2546 9 17
Who had a better TD to INT ratio?
Steve Young 11 TDs to 21 INTs (-10)
Vince Young 21 TDs to 30 INTs (-9)
Uh-oh #1 gives the slight edge to the hollowdome with a doo-rag thinking cap
Who had a better average completion%?
Steve Young had 52.2% + 53.7% (avg 52.95%)
Vince Young had 51.5% + 62.3% (avg 56.90%)
Uh-oh #2 gives edge to the hollowdome
Who had the better combined record?
Steve Young was 3-16
Vince Young was 17-11
Uh-oh #3 gives HUGE edge to the hollowdome
Uh-oh #4 awards conference rookie of the year AND Pro Bowl honors to the hollowdome. I was hoping for Shep's case that Steve Young would have made it a little more competitive. Things got better when he turned about 28 or 29 years of age.
Summary: I think you sort of realize Steve Young's brains wouldn't have meant squat if he stayed in Tampa with a receiving corps that didn't include Jerry Rice. Vince Young won every single comparison so I can't wait for the spin on this one but I promise it's gonna be entertaining.
- Tom F. (Now THAT is Wonderlic'n good folks! I don't care who you are!)
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@shepwrite said:
You keep citing exceptions as if I said there have never been exceptions.Marv Levy called Jim Kelley the smartest quarterback he ever coached, and Levy was an Ivy Leaguer. It happens. I don't think McNabb is dumb and he got a low score.
But 29 of the 32 starters in this league, including every good one not named McNabb, scored between 25 (Ben) and 39 (Eli, Rodgers, and Stafford). Starters in today's NFL -- right now -- do very well on the Wonderlic with precious few exceptions. The more recent you get, the higher the scores get -- Ryan got a 32 and Stafford got a 39.
Will there be another Kelley or McNabb some day, a guy who gets a 15 but is a really smart quarterback? Sure. It happens at a rate of about one a decade, as mz the pussy pointed out.
Shep,
Alex Smith aced the thing like he aced his workout without pass rushers and corners present. GREAT mechanics folks "best workout ever" praises - BUT do those hold up when there's actual sic em? Do you know how many guys did extremely well on the test that didn't go on to start at QB?
I think Zombo said it best when he informed you that was a partial list. When you use partial information - you are skewing results. You are. Do we know how many guys that did well didn't even make teams?
Like I said, there isn't ONE asessment at Indy that measures instincts; and football is HUGE on instincts like it or not. All I know is if Indy was an exact science josh Cribbs would be playing in Canada. Alex Smith would be #1 in the league instead of 2nd or 3rd on his own depth chart. Call that an exception all you want but he was a #1 overall draft pick somebody got fired over.
Somebody like Lawrence Taylor would get a 2 on the Wonderlic and he was a stud BEFORE Parcells even shook his hand the first time. That's ALL instinct and killer instinct - and 0% #2 pencil. You DO understand instincts correlate to split second decision making right?
BTW, I mispoke on VY's record the first 2 years. He was 8-5 as a rookie (supposed to be a senior at school) and 9-5 as a second year player. That's 17-10 you want to stamp as a hollow dome for a team that had a 14 game losing streak before he started his first game in 06. If that's not enough, the Defense was 32nd ranked in 06. How many guys besides Matt Ryan in the last decade have come out of the shoot with better winning percentages for crappy teams drafting in the top 3 spots? If you've got 1 more name color me impressed. If you think the ONLY way to find smart people is through a Wonderlic - you're losing it man.
- Tom F.
If that's not enough, the Defense was 32nd ranked in 06. How many guys besides Matt Ryan in the last decade have come out of the shoot with better winning percentages for crappy teams drafting in the top 3 spots? If you've got 1 more name color me impressed.
- Tom F.
In 2007 Joe Thomas was drafted 3rd. During 2004/2005/2006 and the first game of the '07 season, the Browns won 14 of 49 games(roughly28/29%). After the first game an inexperienced 6th rounder helped the 2007 Browns ... who finished a mighty 30TH in overall defense... to a 10 and 5 record (roughly 66/67%).
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If that's not enough, the Defense was 32nd ranked in 06. How many guys besides Matt Ryan in the last decade have come out of the shoot with better winning percentages for crappy teams drafting in the top 3 spots? If you've got 1 more name color me impressed.
- Tom F.
In 2007 Joe Thomas was drafted 3rd. During 2004/2005/2006 and the first game of the '07 season, the Browns won 14 of 49 games(roughly28/29%). After the first game an inexperienced 6th rounder helped the 2007 Browns ... who finished a mighty 30TH in overall defense... to a 10 and 5 record (roughly 66/67%).
In 2007 Joe Thomas was drafted 3rd. During 2004/2005/2006 and the first game of the '07 season, the Browns won 14 of 49 games(roughly28/29%). After the first game an inexperienced 6th rounder helped the 2007 Browns ... who finished a mighty 30TH in overall defense... to a 10 and 5 record (roughly 66/67%).
So who was our rookie QB out of the shoot? DA was 0-3 in starts in his second NFL season of 2006. His 4th season looked just as chaotic losing TWO 10-6 ballgames thanks to his red zone blunders. When he beats his first AFC team that wins more than 8 games - his popularity will rise the way Sipe's did. If you want to read a nice story on how to keep a 1st round QB seated with the fans' approval - I suggest you research Brian Sipe's career. It's a TRUE story that includes happily ever after.
- Tom F. (Can you stop bringing DA into every conversation? You never like our replies about him so let's keep the discussion going about football smart QBs and whether or not the Wonderlic is the tell-all criteria for finding one)
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All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
ME TOO. That's why you see that in the title of this thread. Good point. Why don't I give you the BEST example of why I don't put too much stock in the Wonderlic? I am going to compare the Wonderlic genius passer to the hollow dome that flicks his wrist. This should prove once and for all how much the Wonderlic REALLY means to 2 YOUNG QBs literally and figuratively:
Steve Young's first 2 years in the NFL which started at age 24
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int
1985 24 TAM QB 8 5 5 1-4-0 72 138 52.2 935 3 8
1986 25 TAM QB 8 14 14 2-12-0 195 363 53.7 2282 8 13
Vince Young's first 2 years in the NFL which started at age 23
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int
2006 23 TEN QB 10 15 13 8-5-0 184 357 51.5 2199 12 13
2007 24 TEN QB 10 15 15 9-6-0 238 382 62.3 2546 9 17
Who had a better TD to INT ratio?
Steve Young 11 TDs to 21 INTs (-10)
Vince Young 21 TDs to 30 INTs (-9)
Uh-oh #1 gives the slight edge to the hollowdome with a doo-rag thinking cap
Who had a better average completion%?
Steve Young had 52.2% + 53.7% (avg 52.95%)
Vince Young had 51.5% + 62.3% (avg 56.90%)
Uh-oh #2 gives edge to the hollowdome
Who had the better combined record?
Steve Young was 3-16
Vince Young was 17-11
Uh-oh #3 gives HUGE edge to the hollowdome
Uh-oh #4 awards conference rookie of the year AND Pro Bowl honors to the hollowdome. I was hoping for Shep's case that Steve Young would have made it a little more competitive. Things got better when he turned about 28 or 29 years of age.
Summary: I think you sort of realize Steve Young's brains wouldn't have meant squat if he stayed in Tampa with a receiving corps that didn't include Jerry Rice. Vince Young won every single comparison so I can't wait for the spin on this one but I promise it's gonna be entertaining.
- Tom F. (Now THAT is a Wonderlic'n good comparison of the YOUNG QBs)
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@shepwrite said:
Alex Smith went undefeated his last year at Utah, Tom. You should be a huge fan.Both guys have faced very tough times, as has Leinart. Tough to say any of the three didn't win in college. Tough to say any of the three haven't been disappointing so far as pros.
I will always bet on the smarter guys to get the most out of their talents at quarterback. Intelligence and work ethic. But that's me. I respect your right to prefer Young.
I just think you're nuts.
I think Leinart is going to have a very good career.
Alex Smith & Matt Leinart didn't WIN in the NFL Shep. Vince Young did consistently for a franchise that wore the impact of being capped out in 05. Now why don't you read the comparison I gave where Vince Young had a better first 2 years than Steve Young using passing stats, completion percentages, and winning percentages. Enjoy. Do ALL Wonderlic geniuses need to wait until they're 28 or 29 years old to GRASP the passing game? And doesn't that mean Steve Young went from 2nd year starter to the bench? Enlighten me. It's amazing what Jerry Rice meant to people.
The Wonderlic DUMB Dan Marino didn't need to wait until he was 28 or 29 to grasp the NFL passing game inspite of your assessment's warnings. But you're right that 5 guys in Dan's draft class had better Wonderlic scores and all those GMs are STILL thinking about what they could have done to extend their careers in NFL brasses.
- Tom F.
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All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
All I know is smarter is better. Of all of the positions on the field, if I had the ability to place all of the intelligence in one spot, it would be quarterback.
That simply isn't true.
Smarter is preferred and desired.
Again...the Wonderlic isn't so much a test of intelligence as it is a test for how fast a person can process information.
No doubt quicker is better in some cases..as in a collapsing pocket....but that doesn't happen every time and in many cases the fractions of difference between player A and player B don't add up to any appreciable difference.
Simply saying a guy who scores a 30 on the test is going to be a better qb than a guy who scores a 19 just isn't true.
All it shows is the 30 might have a edge in that one phase.
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@shepwrite said:
Instincts are great. They don't replace intelligence.Any GM will tell you that an NFL quarterback these days really needs to be smart. Intelligent. He needs to absorb and internalize tons of increasingly complex information so well that it's second nature to express it on the field.
It's unlike any other position in football. And that's why GMs really do care about the Wonderlic as it applies to QBs. And it's why the guys coming into the league these days are almost all getting scores between 27 and 39.
It isn't a brainiac test. It's a pretty basic timed aptitude test with a focus on logic and problem solving. The NFL likes it. Business like it. All kinds of organizations like it.
I sincerely don't think we're disagreeing so much as passing time -- as usual with you and me -- but I would close by saying that "intelligence" as we most commonly define it is very important for playing quarterback in today's very complex NFL. Not just instincts... intelligence. And the Wonderlic is a pretty damn good measure of that.
I think instinct is part of "football intelligence."
The intelligent part of instinct is when you let it take over instead of thinking about letting it take over.
Then you have your "football geniuses" who take instinct and smarts to a whole new level. No way in hell should Kosar have been remotely as successful as he was based purely on athletic ability. But the man was a "football genius." He let his instincts and genius lead his team to wins.
VY may not be classically smart, but he is "football smart." He makes things happen on instinct. True, his smarts are more pure instinct than otherwise, but that can still win you games, and a lot of them.
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@shepwrite said:
Instincts are great. They don't replace intelligence.Any GM will tell you that an NFL quarterback these days really needs to be smart. Intelligent. He needs to absorb and internalize tons of increasingly complex information so well that it's second nature to express it on the field.
It's unlike any other position in football. And that's why GMs really do care about the Wonderlic as it applies to QBs. And it's why the guys coming into the league these days are almost all getting scores between 27 and 39.
It isn't a brainiac test. It's a pretty basic timed aptitude test with a focus on logic and problem solving. The NFL likes it. Business like it. All kinds of organizations like it.
I sincerely don't think we're disagreeing so much as passing time -- as usual with you and me -- but I would close by saying that "intelligence" as we most commonly define it is very important for playing quarterback in today's very complex NFL. Not just instincts... intelligence. And the Wonderlic is a pretty damn good measure of that.
I think instinct is part of "football intelligence."
The intelligent part of instinct is when you let it take over instead of thinking about letting it take over.
Then you have your "football geniuses" who take instinct and smarts to a whole new level. No way in hell should Kosar have been remotely as successful as he was based purely on athletic ability. But the man was a "football genius." He let his instincts and genius lead his team to wins.
VY may not be classically smart, but he is "football smart." He makes things happen on instinct. True, his smarts are more pure instinct than otherwise, but that can still win you games, and a lot of them.
I think instinct is part of "football intelligence."
The intelligent part of instinct is when you let it take over instead of thinking about letting it take over.
Then you have your "football geniuses" who take instinct and smarts to a whole new level. No way in hell should Kosar have been remotely as successful as he was based purely on athletic ability. But the man was a "football genius." He let his instincts and genius lead his team to wins.
VY may not be classically smart, but he is "football smart." He makes things happen on instinct. True, his smarts are more pure instinct than otherwise, but that can still win you games, and a lot of them.
With that said... part of his instincts is to run... I thought was a huge part of his Texas team beating USC for the Championship. Look at #1 option nothing there pull it down and go... Maybe I'm misinformed but I thought that's how he was used under Mack Brown aside for the designed run plays. If that's the case that won't help out any QB #'s. This may be off topic but wasn't he supposed to be one of the most accurate deep ball throwers in college?
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@shepwrite said:
Again, "instincts" aren't enough to be successful as a starting quarterback in the NFL, no matter how we try to define the word. You really do have to be old-fashioned smart to play the position these days. You have to be intelligent. You have to take in, understand, and internalize a lot of very complex information.That is NOT debatable. Any GM will tell you that's true and that's a big part of why they especially value the Wonderlic for quarterbacks.
And it's why virtually every starting QB in the NFL scored between 25 and 39.
Let's move on. It is what it is, whether we like it or not.
Translation: Shep is always right, you are always wrong.
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@shepwrite said:
Again, "instincts" aren't enough to be successful as a starting quarterback in the NFL, no matter how we try to define the word.I just want to bring up the concept of emotional intelligence (EI) here.
We define EI as the capacity to reason about emotions, and of emotions to enhance thinking. It includes the abilities to accurately perceive emotions, to access and generate emotions so as to assist thought, to understand emotions and emotional knowledge, and to reflectively regulate emotions so as to promote emotional and intellectual growth.
Regarding the Intelligence vs. Instinct components of quarterbacking, I would suspect someone with low EI, someone who cannot adequately regulate their emotions, would make for a poor fit for an NFL QB. Right now, Vince Young is in that category for me. Out-of-control/unchecked emotions have clearly gotten in the way of his quarterbacking, which was really based on instincts and athleticism. It is in a case like this where something like the Wonderlic would have been a useful tool for the Titans...with such a low "intelligence" score (he got a 6 or something?), is it a surprise to anyone that when adversity hit, VY let his emotions get in the way of his instincts (his best tool)?
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I just find it interesting that the guy who told us College passing efficiency rating is the best indicator of Pro success for 2 years is now tossing that out the window and pimping Wonderlich scores now that Young's been brought up.
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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