I LOVE Smarts QBs
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Zombo said:
Shep, if scores are getting higher for QBs coming into the league, then perhaps agents are doing a better job of preparing them for the test.
Maybe when Kelly, Marino and McNabb took the test it wasn't as stressed.
Zombo
The purpose of the thread was to appreciate SMART QBs and look forward to us having one in the following year. That said, what I find disturbing about the Wonderlic is it provides the SAME false positives for clearcut conclusions as the QB workouts provide without pass rushers, time urgency, and corners present.
For instance, Donovan McNabb did every bit as horrible on that Wonderlic as Dan Marino. Could you find 2 Qbs that got off to better starts? If the Wonderlic is the tellall - these guys were supposed to take a LONG time to develop. They won instantly because in McNabb's second year he was knocking off the 13-3 Chicago Bears in the playoffs. Jim Kelley wasn't bad either as it's been said. I'll do us all a favor and drop VY from this discussion. You're welcome Shep - now don't make me sorry for letting your blood pressure return to normal.
And for Steve Young being so Wonderlicly gifted - it took him until he was about 28 or 29 years old and JERRY RICE present for him to LOOK like a starter in this league. That is exactly why I felt compelled to USE him in this thread because he was SLOW starting regardless of how he did on the Wonderlic. Football wise - he learned the hard way like MANY QBs have throughout the years.
The Wonderlic also hasn't been a GOOD predictor of WINNERS. I'm becoming increasingly more skeptical of Jay Cutler even though I think he has ALOT of talent. We've talked about emotional maturity and I think when Jay had an golden opportunity to put his team in the playoffs vrs the Buffalo Billls in their red zone for a potential game winning score - he threw an INT. It didn't remind me of Elway coming of age in the biggest of games whatsoever. Consequently, Jay now had to beat SD in a very important game WITHOUT Ed Hochuli the next week. No dice. I seriously think Josh McDaniel didn't question if Cutler had talent. I think he questioned if Jay was capable of using his talent toward WINNING consistently. That being the case, I thought I'd google up what Jay's career record is college and pro and came up with this result:
"Somewhere along the line Jay Cutler has decided that he has proven himself enough to warrant star treatment. His record as a starter in college and the pros is a whopping 28 wins against 54 losses."
Is there a better example of passer ratings not equating to victory? And then you get a Kyle Orton who actaully KEEPS his team in the game ALL first half so a record of 21-12 is achievable. Not a prototype but a WINNER that won't walk away from ann Indy combine with any MORE love than Tom Brady had. Oh wait, Orton was drafted in round 5 so he got a little more love than Tom Brady following the Indy criteria.
In closing, can you find a better version of DUMB Jock than Terry Bradshaw? He's got 4 Superbowl Ws to his name. Jim Kelley runs a close 2nd and he's participated in 4 Superbowls. Donovan McNabb has been in 5 conference Championships and 1 Superbowl, which means he's won rather consistently and taken a coupel league MVP honors. And when Kurt Warner wasn't QBing a few Superbowls - he was feeling good enough about his smarts to bag groceries. Sometimes guys are just born to LEAD and good leaders are NEVER stupid. We've longed for that since the days we were competing in Conference Championship Games.
- Tom F.
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Zombo said:
Was he? What, is he too old to do it now at 24?
His stats were just fine in 2007, even toward the end of the season and the cold weather. He was still throwing for more TDS than we were used to out of the position.
In 2008 he played without Jurevisous, Winslow, Stallworth and Tucker ... you are aware of that, right? You know three of his top four receivers were injured and his fourth led the league in drops, right? I mean ... you have to know that!
And his replacements, including Quinn, put up ratings that were equal or worse than his ...
I mean, you know this, right?
So why the obsession with his passer rating last year?
Again ... Quinn just needs to be more accurate and consistent ... that is his opening .. that is Anderson's weakness ... everything else you put out there just smells like pure crap.
Zombo
No receivers, problems on the line, coming off a brain injury.... no biggie, it's all DA's wonderlich score coming to fruition.
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@shepwrite said:
Is he? Or WAS he?He was capable of being the worst QB in football last year.
Maybe he just does it when he feels it. And he hasn't felt it since week 8 of 2007. His passer rating in the 18 starts since is 68.
You know, Brady got that 104 against a team giving up an average rating in the 98s, still lost it. DA, coming off a concussion, his last five games went 3 and 2, averaging an 82 something (puts him back in the top 20 QB range, not spectacular) against the #1, #5 and #6 pass efficiency defenses in the NFL, along with two other teams with better pass efficiency defenses than Denver had... what does this mean??? Nothing but more questions. But considering he was playing on a team with numerous injuries at receiver and questions on the line, against top notch competition, he wasn't doing all that poorly before the demotion.
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Zombo said:
Was he? What, is he too old to do it now at 24?
His stats were just fine in 2007, even toward the end of the season and the cold weather. He was still throwing for more TDS than we were used to out of the position.
In 2008 he played without Jurevisous, Winslow, Stallworth and Tucker ... you are aware of that, right? You know three of his top four receivers were injured and his fourth led the league in drops, right? I mean ... you have to know that!
And his replacements, including Quinn, put up ratings that were equal or worse than his ...
I mean, you know this, right?
So why the obsession with his passer rating last year?
Again ... Quinn just needs to be more accurate and consistent ... that is his opening .. that is Anderson's weakness ... everything else you put out there just smells like pure crap.
Zombo
No receivers, problems on the line, coming off a brain injury.... no biggie, it's all DA's wonderlich score coming to fruition.
No receivers, problems on the line, coming off a brain injury.... no biggie, it's all DA's wonderlich score coming to fruition.
I love how this "brain injury" is popping up all of a sudden as a legit excuse, especially from those who poopooed a finger injury on the throwing hand.
If DA wasn't fully healthy from his concussion he flat out should not have started last year. It's either that or the prior regime were some serious freaking morons.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
No receivers, problems on the line, coming off a brain injury.... no biggie, it's all DA's wonderlich score coming to fruition.
I love how this "brain injury" is popping up all of a sudden as a legit excuse, especially from those who poopooed a finger injury on the throwing hand.
If DA wasn't fully healthy from his concussion he flat out should not have started last year. It's either that or the prior regime were some serious freaking morons.
I love how this "brain injury" is popping up all of a sudden as a legit excuse, especially from those who poopooed a finger injury on the throwing hand.
If DA wasn't fully healthy from his concussion he flat out should not have started last year. It's either that or the prior regime were some serious freaking morons.
No doubt. There are no injuries ever to Browns' QBs. They only get "Owies" and "BooBoos".
And it doesn't matter if it might have affected any measurable performance aspect. The numbers stand regardless.
It was awful nice of someone in here
to point out that's the way it is on this forum.DA should've just stuck a band-aid on his forehead. Taken an aspirin. Shaken it off.
And then he should have gotten back on the field to continue showing us more of the same we saw in the legendary pro-bowl appearance.
Wow, look at the page views.
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No receivers, problems on the line, coming off a brain injury.... no biggie, it's all DA's wonderlich score coming to fruition.
I love how this "brain injury" is popping up all of a sudden as a legit excuse, especially from those who poopooed a finger injury on the throwing hand.
If DA wasn't fully healthy from his concussion he flat out should not have started last year. It's either that or the prior regime were some serious freaking morons.
I love how this "brain injury" is popping up all of a sudden as a legit excuse, especially from those who poopooed a finger injury on the throwing hand.
If DA wasn't fully healthy from his concussion he flat out should not have started last year. It's either that or the prior regime were some serious freaking morons.
I thought the moron factor was a given. You had a QB that was healthy and got starters reps and 2 full preseason games prior to the season, then you had a QB that missed 2 preseason games and 2-3 weeks of practice, who practiced all of 5-6 days inside before the opener because he had problems with sunlight sensitivity... and guess who they picked. There's no way DA should have started the season. To me it says a lot about the coaching staff or the alternative QB option... maybe both.
Speaking of hand injuries, wasn't there talk of DA dislocating a finger during one of the games this year and heading to the sideline and asking the coaches to pull it back into place? I don't know if it's true, but I do seem to recall it being brought up.
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Injuries mean nothing. QB has a 66.6 rating he should be out of here, oh wait that was BQ's rating last year. Shocking, neither QB did well with a subpar line and horrible receivers.
I would like to know if you are just looking at last season that BQ's "only healthy" start is all you can use but you use all of DA's season even when he was coming off of a head injury. Why can we not only use his healthy starts with starter reps?
Maybe we should just use DAs best game and stack it up against BQs best game. BQ torched the great Bronco defense with a 104 QB rating (mind you in 2 more games he lowered his overall to 66.6) while DA had a little bit better 121.3 rating, but it was against the lowly NY Giants. And if you look at the last 5 games before DA was benched he had a rating of around 85 (that is with the 57.9 rating against Washington). The 5 teams are Cincy, NYG, Wash, Jacksonville and baltimore.
So basically all I am saying is that if you take out the probable "injured" games that DA played in (god knows those should not count because they certainly don't for BQ) that he was really not that bad. And the Browns record was 3 and 2 in "healthy" games.
And yes I also believe that the coaching staff should not have started DA the first few games. He was not physically ready to perform. I think that the coaches did not like what they saw with BQ in the preseason and did not want him to open up his career against Dallas, Pittsburgh and at Baltimore. Not sure a QB rating of 50 would have been a confidence booster for him( and yes I think that would have been his rating).
Now with my defending of DA done I will say that the Browns will and should start BQ this year. If they do not then I think that says a whole lot more about BQ than it does about DA. BQ must have the entire season unless he is injured. You can't pull him after 3 games or even 8. Give him the year.
It will be fun to try and take apart his flaws and to applaud his success. And I agree with Zombo, stop with the Qb ratings. It is not like BQ tore it up. And if you are going to cherry pick games then I would have to say that DA did not have as bad a season last year as it appears either. Let BQ show why he should start with better accuracy and leadership. He will get his chance, now he just must take advantage of it.
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Shep, what do you disagree with that I said? Do you disagree that BQ should be the starter? Or maybe that BQ should get the whole season to show what he can do? Or maybe it is just how I came to that conclusion despite the fact that both QBs at Very Very similar points in their respective careers are almost the same stats wise (yes after 3 starts and similar age and conditions coming into a season). Or do you just disagree that it is ok to only take BQs healthy starts and not consider only DA's healthy starts?
Just curious on what you don't agree with? If your argument is that despite the fact that DA and BQ seemed to have mirrored each other stats wise in similar situations that BQ has a higher upside than DA because of XYZ then that is where you should post about scores.
If you want to say that I don't know if BQ is better than DA since he has not shown any indication that he is, but DA has proved he is not the answer in Cleveland so we just want to see if BQ is the answer. then I can agree with you.
I don't see what the big problem is with what I or Zombo posted. I also do not have a problem with somebody having the opinion that BQ is a smarter QB. I don't know if he is but it is not something I can argue one way or the other. I like reading peoples opinions on what they see and what they prefer at QB. I personally like the gunslinger, but that is what I like. Does not mean it is right in this offense or that it is what other people prefer. Only thing we can probably all agree on is that we all like WINS.
Can't wait for the season to start, I really miss football.
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Zombo said:
Is it?
Active passing leaders on the list:
1. Favre 65,127 ... 22
2. P. Manning 45,628 ... 28
3. K. Collins 34,393 ... 30
4. Donovan Mcnabb ... 29,320 ... 14
5. Kurt Warner ... 28,591 ... ??
6. Tom Brady ... 26,446 ... 33
So throw out Warner and the average score of a stud QB is 25.4.
Zombo
And Bradshaw got about a 2 while Kelly got about a 3 but that math isn't as good as this math:
4 Superbowls + 4 Superbowls = 8 Superbowls
The Wonderlic fans would have CUT Bradshaw, Kelly, Marino and McNabb plus there's prolly a reason they're leaving out Warner's score. Point IS - none of those guys are football DUMB and the Wonderlic conclusions say otherwise.
Many SMART people are good with a pencil and answering questions on paper; BUT I found enough very smart football guys that indicate that Wonderlic'n test just isn't the tellall. Those aren't just average performers either. They're in the Elite. Bradshaw, Kelly and Marino already made the Hall of Fame. And ever since Philly sucked badly enough to draft #2 overall behind an expansion team - McNabb has put that franchise into 5 conference Championships and 1 Superbowl. Plus has he 2 or 3 League MVPs. I'm guessing if Kurt Warner was good at multiplying, dividing, adding and subtracting we would have seen his Wonderlic Store and it wouldn't have added up to bagging groceries in the absence of football.
Aside from that, Marino wasn't drafted until the 23rd or 24th slot overall. For a guy that was labelled Summer School by that Wonderlic - he had about the BEST rookie year I've ever seen. DUMB people just don't get it that good that fast. Impossible.
I think Kenny Mayne said it best: "Football games aren't played on paper - they're played on TV."
- Tom F.
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Zombo said:
Is it?
Active passing leaders on the list:
1. Favre 65,127 ... 22
2. P. Manning 45,628 ... 28
3. K. Collins 34,393 ... 30
4. Donovan Mcnabb ... 29,320 ... 14
5. Kurt Warner ... 28,591 ... ??
6. Tom Brady ... 26,446 ... 33
So throw out Warner and the average score of a stud QB is 25.4.
Zombo
And Bradshaw got about a 2 while Kelly got about a 3 but that math isn't as good as this math:
4 Superbowls + 4 Superbowls = 8 Superbowls
The Wonderlic fans would have CUT Bradshaw, Kelly, Marino and McNabb plus there's prolly a reason they're leaving out Warner's score. Point IS - none of those guys are football DUMB and the Wonderlic conclusions say otherwise.
Many SMART people are good with a pencil and answering questions on paper; BUT I found enough very smart football guys that indicate that Wonderlic'n test just isn't the tellall. Those aren't just average performers either. They're in the Elite. Bradshaw, Kelly and Marino already made the Hall of Fame. And ever since Philly sucked badly enough to draft #2 overall behind an expansion team - McNabb has put that franchise into 5 conference Championships and 1 Superbowl. Plus has he 2 or 3 League MVPs. I'm guessing if Kurt Warner was good at multiplying, dividing, adding and subtracting we would have seen his Wonderlic Store and it wouldn't have added up to bagging groceries in the absence of football.
Aside from that, Marino wasn't drafted until the 23rd or 24th slot overall. For a guy that was labelled Summer School by that Wonderlic - he had about the BEST rookie year I've ever seen. DUMB people just don't get it that good that fast. Impossible.
I think Kenny Mayne said it best: "Football games aren't played on paper - they're played on TV."
- Tom F.
And Bradshaw got about a 2 while Kelly got about a 3 but that math isn't as good as this math:
4 Superbowls + 4 Superbowls = 8 Superbowls
The Wonderlic fans would have CUT Bradshaw, Kelly, Marino and McNabb plus there's prolly a reason they're leaving out Warner's score. Point IS - none of those guys are football DUMB and the Wonderlic conclusions say otherwise.
Many SMART people are good with a pencil and answering questions on paper; BUT I found enough very smart football guys that indicate that Wonderlic'n test just isn't the tellall. Those aren't just average performers either. They're in the Elite. Bradshaw, Kelly and Marino already made the Hall of Fame. And ever since Philly sucked badly enough to draft #2 overall behind an expansion team - McNabb has put that franchise into 5 conference Championships and 1 Superbowl. Plus has he 2 or 3 League MVPs. I'm guessing if Kurt Warner was good at multiplying, dividing, adding and subtracting we would have seen his Wonderlic Store and it wouldn't have added up to bagging groceries in the absence of football.
Aside from that, Marino wasn't drafted until the 23rd or 24th slot overall. For a guy that was labelled Summer School by that Wonderlic - he had about the BEST rookie year I've ever seen. DUMB people just don't get it that good that fast. Impossible.
I think Kenny Mayne said it best: "Football games aren't played on paper - they're played on TV."
- Tom F.
DA doesn't remind me of any the qb's on that list. Neither does Quinn, yet
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Here's a clip of the guys at NFL Network discussing Young's troubles and his future:
.jpg.a1a2b9a0c33008fdaf4097d8fe2cfd64.jpg "Riffer X"){kind=avatar}
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