ANYBODY WATCH UFC 100?
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You don't know what you are talking about. His wrestling is, bar none, one of the best in the world no matter MMA, Wrestling, what have you. Did you see how he used his wrestling to keep Mir from doing anything from the bottom?
Strong guys can do well, but they are average at best unless they have some skill behind that strength.
Actually he does know what he's talking about Thaak cuz it's MMA, not NCAA wrestling. Huge men laying atop much smaller men w/ a rape choke in place (and one w/ thumb on Adam's apple is undoubtedly as cheap as they come), pinning down far-side arms while trapping their head in your arm pit, and oafishly bashing them in the skull--while effective in this case--is far from what I consider "skillful".
Like his huge hammerfists, his cheap shotting to the neck/throat/nose/eyes/ears and back of head may make you look bad, maybe even like hamburger, but it's not skillful by any stretch of the imagination. His bull-charging tactics are for straight amateurs and he's lucky he's huge--he cuts weight to make 265 btw--cuz when he inevitably faces someone equally humongous w/ legit strikes or jitz he's curtains.
sev the UFC didn't specifically arrange those matchups for Lesnar, Couture and Mir were the current belt holders, but I do agree they were good opponents for Lesnar. It was just coincidence though and he still beat both belt holders so you can't ignore the results. Also to comment on what you also wrote Lesnar would absolutely annihilate Tim "Stilts" Sylvia and Overeem would be much too small to give Lesnar any kind of trouble, he'd bull rush them both, ride them, and oafishly bludgeon them both to ref Tko as well. Probably same for Arlovski too, Brock has at least 30 lbs advantage on him too. I don't even know if Fedor is big enough but my $'s on him anyway, predicting he'd step within range quickly and score the KO, like he somehow always does. If you can stuff the takedown/bull rush long enough to slip inside you can score on his huge, fat head.
Actually he does know what he's talking about Thaak cuz it's MMA, not NCAA wrestling. Huge men laying atop much smaller men w/ a rape choke in place (and one w/ thumb on Adam's apple is undoubtedly as cheap as they come), pinning down far-side arms while trapping their head in your arm pit, and oafishly bashing them in the skull--while effective in this case--is far from what I consider "skillful".
Like his huge hammerfists, his cheap shotting to the neck/throat/nose/eyes/ears and back of head may make you look bad, maybe even like hamburger, but it's not skillful by any stretch of the imagination. His bull-charging tactics are for straight amateurs and he's lucky he's huge--he cuts weight to make 265 btw--cuz when he inevitably faces someone equally humongous w/ legit strikes or jitz he's curtains.
sev the UFC didn't specifically arrange those matchups for Lesnar, Couture and Mir were the current belt holders, but I do agree they were good opponents for Lesnar. It was just coincidence though and he still beat both belt holders so you can't ignore the results. Also to comment on what you also wrote Lesnar would absolutely annihilate Tim "Stilts" Sylvia and Overeem would be much too small to give Lesnar any kind of trouble, he'd bull rush them both, ride them, and oafishly bludgeon them both to ref Tko as well. Probably same for Arlovski too, Brock has at least 30 lbs advantage on him too. I don't even know if Fedor is big enough but my $'s on him anyway, predicting he'd step within range quickly and score the KO, like he somehow always does. If you can stuff the takedown/bull rush long enough to slip inside you can score on his huge, fat head.
Actually, Greg, Thaak is correct and you and ClevelandFan apparently know nothing about the sport. UFC is MMA...you know that it stands for Mixed Martial Arts. Not just one discipline...but a mixture of all disciplines. Wrestling is one of those disciplines. I don't here anyone bitching because all Frank Mir does is to try and submit people with his Ju jitsu. And nobody complains about the Iceman throwing wild haymakers. They both win fights with the skills that they know best. Just like Brock Lesnar. He is a wrestler...one of the best wrestlers around. He also was blessed with crazy size and strength. People need to quit hating on him for being what he is. He went and did exactly what anyone else would have done (during the fight...post-fight was rediculous) and used HIS skills to win the championship. No different than when Frank Mir used HIS skills to tap out Lesnar in the first fight. All he did the entire fight was to keep trying for a submission. In a recent article, today on yahoo, Randy Couture came right out and admitted that Lesnar is very skilled and keeps getting better. He also said that Fedor will have trouble with him and needs to avoid allowing Lesnar to take him down. When "The Natural" says things like that, you gotta know that the guy is for real!
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Actually he does know what he's talking about Thaak cuz it's MMA, not NCAA wrestling. Huge men laying atop much smaller men w/ a rape choke in place (and one w/ thumb on Adam's apple is undoubtedly as cheap as they come), pinning down far-side arms while trapping their head in your arm pit, and oafishly bashing them in the skull--while effective in this case--is far from what I consider "skillful".
Like his huge hammerfists, his cheap shotting to the neck/throat/nose/eyes/ears and back of head may make you look bad, maybe even like hamburger, but it's not skillful by any stretch of the imagination. His bull-charging tactics are for straight amateurs and he's lucky he's huge--he cuts weight to make 265 btw--cuz when he inevitably faces someone equally humongous w/ legit strikes or jitz he's curtains.
sev the UFC didn't specifically arrange those matchups for Lesnar, Couture and Mir were the current belt holders, but I do agree they were good opponents for Lesnar. It was just coincidence though and he still beat both belt holders so you can't ignore the results. Also to comment on what you also wrote Lesnar would absolutely annihilate Tim "Stilts" Sylvia and Overeem would be much too small to give Lesnar any kind of trouble, he'd bull rush them both, ride them, and oafishly bludgeon them both to ref Tko as well. Probably same for Arlovski too, Brock has at least 30 lbs advantage on him too. I don't even know if Fedor is big enough but my $'s on him anyway, predicting he'd step within range quickly and score the KO, like he somehow always does. If you can stuff the takedown/bull rush long enough to slip inside you can score on his huge, fat head.
Actually, Greg, Thaak is correct and you and ClevelandFan apparently know nothing about the sport. UFC is MMA...you know that it stands for Mixed Martial Arts. Not just one discipline...but a mixture of all disciplines. Wrestling is one of those disciplines. I don't here anyone bitching because all Frank Mir does is to try and submit people with his Ju jitsu. And nobody complains about the Iceman throwing wild haymakers. They both win fights with the skills that they know best. Just like Brock Lesnar. He is a wrestler...one of the best wrestlers around. He also was blessed with crazy size and strength. People need to quit hating on him for being what he is. He went and did exactly what anyone else would have done (during the fight...post-fight was rediculous) and used HIS skills to win the championship. No different than when Frank Mir used HIS skills to tap out Lesnar in the first fight. All he did the entire fight was to keep trying for a submission. In a recent article, today on yahoo, Randy Couture came right out and admitted that Lesnar is very skilled and keeps getting better. He also said that Fedor will have trouble with him and needs to avoid allowing Lesnar to take him down. When "The Natural" says things like that, you gotta know that the guy is for real!
Actually, Greg, Thaak is correct and you and ClevelandFan apparently know nothing about the sport. UFC is MMA...you know that it stands for Mixed Martial Arts. Not just one discipline...but a mixture of all disciplines. Wrestling is one of those disciplines. I don't here anyone bitching because all Frank Mir does is to try and submit people with his Ju jitsu. And nobody complains about the Iceman throwing wild haymakers. They both win fights with the skills that they know best. Just like Brock Lesnar. He is a wrestler...one of the best wrestlers around. He also was blessed with crazy size and strength. People need to quit hating on him for being what he is. He went and did exactly what anyone else would have done (during the fight...post-fight was rediculous) and used HIS skills to win the championship. No different than when Frank Mir used HIS skills to tap out Lesnar in the first fight. All he did the entire fight was to keep trying for a submission. In a recent article, today on yahoo, Randy Couture came right out and admitted that Lesnar is very skilled and keeps getting better. He also said that Fedor will have trouble with him and needs to avoid allowing Lesnar to take him down. When "The Natural" says things like that, you gotta know that the guy is for real!
Oh please, educate us!
Lesnar will get dealt with as soon as a skilled heavyweight his size contends. It is reminiscent of how back in the day Royce was extremely dominant using his gi but without its advantage he was quickly exposed and dealt with. Get it? Once Lesnars size and power is matched/negated he's cannonfodder, NCAA amateur wrestling pedigree or not.
I never denied the results, and sure I'll grant that Lesnar has a superb bullrush and a violent takedown but so did Koscheck. Would Koscheck have been as successful had he not added other tools to his toolbox? What about if the division was 60+lbs from top to bottom? I think everything I said in previous posts possibly just went over your head. To summarize what you missed we were saying: Lesnar is a beast, opponents weren't his size, and while he may have skills at wrestling and takedowns his skills as a fighter are rudimentary at best.
Maybe my beef is that the heavyweight division is too big and hurts the chances of a lot of guys who weigh somewhere in the middle of the pack. If this is ever addressed you will see what I'm referring to with Lesnar.
PS Mir's subs and over-hand rights courtesy Chuck Liddell stop fights, why would anyone bitch about that? You apparently prefer referee tko's though huh? What about the early days of the UFC, when there were less rules and it was legal for Keith Hackney to strike Joe Son in the nads 20 or 30 times for the win? Did you like that too? Or how about the eye gouges and throat punches? All's fair in the sport of MMA, right?
How much do you really know about what you're talking about LCD, or are you just coming after me because I dared to politely ask you a question? I don't need Randy Couture to validate my MMA opinions, but it's cool that his comments supported my advice on how Fedor could beat Lesnar.
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Actually, Greg, Thaak is correct and you and ClevelandFan apparently know nothing about the sport. UFC is MMA...you know that it stands for Mixed Martial Arts. Not just one discipline...but a mixture of all disciplines. Wrestling is one of those disciplines. I don't here anyone bitching because all Frank Mir does is to try and submit people with his Ju jitsu. And nobody complains about the Iceman throwing wild haymakers. They both win fights with the skills that they know best. Just like Brock Lesnar. He is a wrestler...one of the best wrestlers around. He also was blessed with crazy size and strength. People need to quit hating on him for being what he is. He went and did exactly what anyone else would have done (during the fight...post-fight was rediculous) and used HIS skills to win the championship. No different than when Frank Mir used HIS skills to tap out Lesnar in the first fight. All he did the entire fight was to keep trying for a submission. In a recent article, today on yahoo, Randy Couture came right out and admitted that Lesnar is very skilled and keeps getting better. He also said that Fedor will have trouble with him and needs to avoid allowing Lesnar to take him down. When "The Natural" says things like that, you gotta know that the guy is for real!
Oh please, educate us!
Lesnar will get dealt with as soon as a skilled heavyweight his size contends. It is reminiscent of how back in the day Royce was extremely dominant using his gi but without its advantage he was quickly exposed and dealt with. Get it? Once Lesnars size and power is matched/negated he's cannonfodder, NCAA amateur wrestling pedigree or not.
I never denied the results, and sure I'll grant that Lesnar has a superb bullrush and a violent takedown but so did Koscheck. Would Koscheck have been as successful had he not added other tools to his toolbox? What about if the division was 60+lbs from top to bottom? I think everything I said in previous posts possibly just went over your head. To summarize what you missed we were saying: Lesnar is a beast, opponents weren't his size, and while he may have skills at wrestling and takedowns his skills as a fighter are rudimentary at best.
Maybe my beef is that the heavyweight division is too big and hurts the chances of a lot of guys who weigh somewhere in the middle of the pack. If this is ever addressed you will see what I'm referring to with Lesnar.
PS Mir's subs and over-hand rights courtesy Chuck Liddell stop fights, why would anyone bitch about that? You apparently prefer referee tko's though huh? What about the early days of the UFC, when there were less rules and it was legal for Keith Hackney to strike Joe Son in the nads 20 or 30 times for the win? Did you like that too? Or how about the eye gouges and throat punches? All's fair in the sport of MMA, right?
How much do you really know about what you're talking about LCD, or are you just coming after me because I dared to politely ask you a question? I don't need Randy Couture to validate my MMA opinions, but it's cool that his comments supported my advice on how Fedor could beat Lesnar.
Oh please, educate us!
Lesnar will get dealt with as soon as a skilled heavyweight his size contends. It is reminiscent of how back in the day Royce was extremely dominant using his gi but without its advantage he was quickly exposed and dealt with. Get it? Once Lesnars size and power is matched/negated he's cannonfodder, NCAA amateur wrestling pedigree or not.
I never denied the results, and sure I'll grant that Lesnar has a superb bullrush and a violent takedown but so did Koscheck. Would Koscheck have been as successful had he not added other tools to his toolbox? What about if the division was 60+lbs from top to bottom? I think everything I said in previous posts possibly just went over your head. To summarize what you missed we were saying: Lesnar is a beast, opponents weren't his size, and while he may have skills at wrestling and takedowns his skills as a fighter are rudimentary at best.
Maybe my beef is that the heavyweight division is too big and hurts the chances of a lot of guys who weigh somewhere in the middle of the pack. If this is ever addressed you will see what I'm referring to with Lesnar.
PS Mir's subs and over-hand rights courtesy Chuck Liddell stop fights, why would anyone bitch about that? You apparently prefer referee tko's though huh? What about the early days, when there were less rules and it was legal for Keith Hackney to strike Joe Son in the nads 20 or 30 times for the win? Did you like that too? Or how about the eye gouges and throat punches? All's fair in the sport of MMA, right?
How much do you really know about what you're talking about LCD, or are you just coming after me because I dared to politely ask you a question? I don't need Randy Couture to validate my MMA opinions, but it's cool that his comments supported my advice on how Fedor could beat Lesnar.
I don't think you and I are totally disagreeing here. My beef is that people like Clevelandfan are not giving Lesnar any credit at all. What I am saying is that wrestling is just as much a discipline in this sport as anything else. Lesnar should not be faulted for using his skills and his size/strength to his advantage just as Liddell uses his punching power to his advantage and Mir uses his submissions to his advantage. You completely missed my point. I did not say that you should be bitching about Mir or Liddell. I simply was stating that you shouldn't be bitching about Lesnar either. I understand your beef about the weight difference and I agree that another class could be added there. But, until it is added and/or until someone does challenge Lesnar, why dog the guy for winning fights?
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Oh please, educate us!
Lesnar will get dealt with as soon as a skilled heavyweight his size contends. It is reminiscent of how back in the day Royce was extremely dominant using his gi but without its advantage he was quickly exposed and dealt with. Get it? Once Lesnars size and power is matched/negated he's cannonfodder, NCAA amateur wrestling pedigree or not.
I never denied the results, and sure I'll grant that Lesnar has a superb bullrush and a violent takedown but so did Koscheck. Would Koscheck have been as successful had he not added other tools to his toolbox? What about if the division was 60+lbs from top to bottom? I think everything I said in previous posts possibly just went over your head. To summarize what you missed we were saying: Lesnar is a beast, opponents weren't his size, and while he may have skills at wrestling and takedowns his skills as a fighter are rudimentary at best.
Maybe my beef is that the heavyweight division is too big and hurts the chances of a lot of guys who weigh somewhere in the middle of the pack. If this is ever addressed you will see what I'm referring to with Lesnar.
PS Mir's subs and over-hand rights courtesy Chuck Liddell stop fights, why would anyone bitch about that? You apparently prefer referee tko's though huh? What about the early days, when there were less rules and it was legal for Keith Hackney to strike Joe Son in the nads 20 or 30 times for the win? Did you like that too? Or how about the eye gouges and throat punches? All's fair in the sport of MMA, right?
How much do you really know about what you're talking about LCD, or are you just coming after me because I dared to politely ask you a question? I don't need Randy Couture to validate my MMA opinions, but it's cool that his comments supported my advice on how Fedor could beat Lesnar.
I don't think you and I are totally disagreeing here. My beef is that people like Clevelandfan are not giving Lesnar any credit at all. What I am saying is that wrestling is just as much a discipline in this sport as anything else. Lesnar should not be faulted for using his skills and his size/strength to his advantage just as Liddell uses his punching power to his advantage and Mir uses his submissions to his advantage. You completely missed my point. I did not say that you should be bitching about Mir or Liddell. I simply was stating that you shouldn't be bitching about Lesnar either. I understand your beef about the weight difference and I agree that another class could be added there. But, until it is added and/or until someone does challenge Lesnar, why dog the guy for winning fights?
I don't think you and I are totally disagreeing here. My beef is that people like Clevelandfan are not giving Lesnar any credit at all. What I am saying is that wrestling is just as much a discipline in this sport as anything else. Lesnar should not be faulted for using his skills and his size/strength to his advantage just as Liddell uses his punching power to his advantage and Mir uses his submissions to his advantage. You completely missed my point. I did not say that you should be bitching about Mir or Liddell. I simply was stating that you shouldn't be bitching about Lesnar either. I understand your beef about the weight difference and I agree that another class could be added there. But, until it is added and/or until someone does challenge Lesnar, why dog the guy for winning fights?
Because of the fashion in which he is winning them.
A huge man laying on top of his opponent and using a rape choke (to disguise the fact you're pressing on the guys windpipe) then proceeds to use his enormous body mass to pin Mir down and with brute force trap one of his arms behind his head. Then, also using your bodyweight and long arms you pin his head underneath you in a stationary position and proceed to club him in the face until the ref jumps in. A purely genetic win, very little skill involved whatsoever. There were some sneaky moves utilized and some definite game-planning but it was far from impressive, skill-wise.
He is doing a great job at being everything the UFC is attempting to separate itself from. They despise repeated blows to the head that don't induce KO's, in fact that was Dana's defense against why UFC is safer than boxing. No one has ever been worried about their windpipe being collapsed by their opponent. The distraction this served while possibly causing permanent damage masked Brock's ability to get into position to pin Mir's arm. Most people use the "punch-pass" method, Lesnar used the "this mofo doesn't know if I'm gonna crush his throat or not " style, evident by Mir's expression. Rape chokes are legal to hold a person in place but after Lesnar's "throat liberties" the Nevada State Athletic Commission will probably review the rules on it further to protect the fighters more. No one has ever done that before, throat chokes/strikes are illegal but for one day Brock found a loophole. It was a desperation move, just like when he used hammerfists from 6" away to try to finish Couture. He gets in there and essentially draws upon size, brute strength, and wrestling instincts.
I don't care who you are, a kneeling hammerfist from Zeus himself wouldn't KO my 125lb niece. At the UFC Championship levels screw all the moves that only inflict damage and focus on the ones that stop fights. In four fights Brock has yet to earn a single style point from me. He's a basic bull rush brawling slugger and he only gets away with it because he's gigantic. The fact that he has huge canned hams as fists and cannot figure out how to knock someone out is pretty disappointing. The guy has a long, long way to go before he'll have me convinced he's legit.
To deny that wrestling is a dominant base in MMA would ignore nearly half the fighters currently in the UFC...but name one that still exists with it being their only skill-set. Here's a few great hybrids:Clay Guida, Tyson Griffin, Kurt Pelligrino, Josh Koscheck, Matt Hamill, Rashad Evans, Urijah Faber, Tank Abbott, Babalu Sobral, Joe Stevenson, Diego Sanchez, Dan Severn, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, Mark Coleman, Dan Henderson...
Now, where would any of them be today without their crosstraining?
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I don't think you and I are totally disagreeing here. My beef is that people like Clevelandfan are not giving Lesnar any credit at all. What I am saying is that wrestling is just as much a discipline in this sport as anything else. Lesnar should not be faulted for using his skills and his size/strength to his advantage just as Liddell uses his punching power to his advantage and Mir uses his submissions to his advantage. You completely missed my point. I did not say that you should be bitching about Mir or Liddell. I simply was stating that you shouldn't be bitching about Lesnar either. I understand your beef about the weight difference and I agree that another class could be added there. But, until it is added and/or until someone does challenge Lesnar, why dog the guy for winning fights?
Because of the fashion in which he is winning them.
A huge man laying on top of his opponent and using a rape choke (to disguise the fact you're pressing on the guys windpipe) then proceeds to use his enormous body mass to pin Mir down and with brute force trap one of his arms behind his head. Then, also using your bodyweight and long arms you pin his head underneath you in a stationary position and proceed to club him in the face until the ref jumps in. A purely genetic win, very little skill involved whatsoever. There were some sneaky moves utilized and some definite game-planning but it was far from impressive, skill-wise.
He is doing a great job at being everything the UFC is attempting to separate itself from. They despise repeated blows to the head that don't induce KO's, in fact that was Dana's defense against why UFC is safer than boxing. No one has ever been worried about their windpipe being collapsed by their opponent. The distraction this served while possibly causing permanent damage masked Brock's ability to get into position to pin Mir's arm. Most people use the "punch-pass" method, Lesnar used the "this mofo doesn't know if I'm gonna crush his throat or not " style, evident by Mir's expression. Rape chokes are legal to hold a person in place but after Lesnar's "throat liberties" the Nevada State Athletic Commission will probably review the rules on it further to protect the fighters more. No one has ever done that before, throat chokes/strikes are illegal but for one day Brock found a loophole. It was a desperation move, just like when he used hammerfists from 6" away to try to finish Couture. He gets in there and essentially draws upon size, brute strength, and wrestling instincts.
I don't care who you are, a kneeling hammerfist from Zeus himself wouldn't KO my 125lb niece. At the UFC Championship levels screw all the moves that only inflict damage and focus on the ones that stop fights. In four fights Brock has yet to earn a single style point from me. He's a basic bull rush brawling slugger and he only gets away with it because he's gigantic. The fact that he has huge canned hams as fists and cannot figure out how to knock someone out is pretty disappointing. The guy has a long, long way to go before he'll have me convinced he's legit.
To deny that wrestling is a dominant base in MMA would ignore nearly half the fighters currently in the UFC...but name one that still exists with it being their only skill-set. Here's a few great hybrids:Clay Guida, Tyson Griffin, Kurt Pelligrino, Josh Koscheck, Matt Hamill, Rashad Evans, Urijah Faber, Tank Abbott, Babalu Sobral, Joe Stevenson, Diego Sanchez, Dan Severn, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, Mark Coleman, Dan Henderson...
Now, where would any of them be today without their crosstraining?
Because of the fashion in which he is winning them.
A huge man laying on top of his opponent and using a rape choke (to disguise the fact you're pressing on the guys windpipe) then proceeds to use his enormous body mass to pin Mir down and with brute force trap one of his arms behind his head. Then, also using your bodyweight and long arms you pin his head underneath you in a stationary position and proceed to club him in the face until the ref jumps in. A purely genetic win, very little skill involved whatsoever. There were some sneaky moves utilized and some definite game-planning but it was far from impressive, skill-wise.
He is doing a great job at being everything the UFC is attempting to separate itself from. They despise repeated blows to the head that don't induce KO's, in fact that was Dana's defense against why UFC is safer than boxing. No one has ever been worried about their windpipe being collapsed by their opponent. The distraction this served while possibly causing permanent damage masked Brock's ability to get into position to pin Mir's arm. Most people use the "punch-pass" method, Lesnar used the "this mofo doesn't know if I'm gonna crush his throat or not " style, evident by Mir's expression. Rape chokes are legal to hold a person in place but after Lesnar's "throat liberties" the Nevada State Athletic Commission will probably review the rules on it further to protect the fighters more. No one has ever done that before, throat chokes/strikes are illegal but for one day Brock found a loophole. It was a desperation move, just like when he used hammerfists from 6" away to try to finish Couture. He gets in there and essentially draws upon size, brute strength, and wrestling instincts.
I don't care who you are, a kneeling hammerfist from Zeus himself wouldn't KO my 125lb niece. At the UFC Championship levels screw all the moves that only inflict damage and focus on the ones that stop fights. In four fights Brock has yet to earn a single style point from me. He's a basic bull rush brawling slugger and he only gets away with it because he's gigantic. The fact that he has huge canned hams as fists and cannot figure out how to knock someone out is pretty disappointing. The guy has a long, long way to go before he'll have me convinced he's legit.
To deny that wrestling is a dominant base in MMA would ignore nearly half the fighters currently in the UFC...but name one that still exists with it being their only skill-set. Here's a few great hybrids:Clay Guida, Tyson Griffin, Kurt Pelligrino, Josh Koscheck, Matt Hamill, Rashad Evans, Urijah Faber, Tank Abbott, Babalu Sobral, Joe Stevenson, Diego Sanchez, Dan Severn, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, Mark Coleman...
Now, where would any of them be today without their crosstraining?
I suppose Lesnars win over that striker guy he fought just after losing to Mir didn't show he can strike, even a little? He hit the guy in the face so hard he tumbled him over backwards into the fence.
GSP has recently started doing almost nothing but wrestling too. He beat Koschek at his own game. But his last few fights have been far from dynamic excitement. No huge knock outs. But he did completely dominate.
Lesner completely dominated Mir. And if you think all he did was lay on top of Mir... then you don't know a thing about Wrestling. I wrestled in HS... so I know a thing or two about it.
All ground-and-pounders (a typical "finishing" style most often used by wrestlers who are typically neither excellent strikers nor excellent submitters) have learned out to avoid submissions by keeping elbows in, posturing up, and not allowing any of their limbs to become over extended when the ju jitsu guy's hips are rotated either right or left while their foot is on the wrestlers hip.
Lesner is learning how to do that.
Mir also was the first guy to score a KO of Minotauro. That's pretty impressive, especially from a guy who wasn't previously known as a striker. He's worked a TON on his striking (Nick Diaz also shocked the world about 6 or 7 years ago against Robby Lawler) and it showed. Minotauro, by the way, has won a few matches by KO as well (over strikers.) So the fact that Lesner was able to not only avoid Mir's striking, take him down easily, and essentially control Mir while on the ground, was quite impressive. Flashy? No. But all the same, impressive.
Lesner used a nice wrestling base and sprawl while on the ground to keep Mir from being able to reverse or turn him. The idea is to create a tripod with your toes or knees (with legs spread relatively wide for both) and the center of your chest or breast bone.
Additionally, Lesner did something in the cage that I'd not seen in MMA before. He used a kinda inverted half-nelson (which sorta looked like a full nelson with one arm) to crank Mir's neck forward giving him no room to avoid Lesner's punches, and put his ham fist into the opposite underarm. He kept Mir from blocking those punches with his hand or at least absorbing some of the punishment when the back of Mir's own hand hit him in the face. That was kinda neat, seeing a unique technique like that.
You want to say that all he is, is a ham-fisted brawler who lunges forward and uses his size and strength to defeat his opponents, but that he has no actual skill?
I say so what?! He has beaten the best at HW that's out there. Gonzaga has to prove he can actually win again before he'll get another title shot. Arlovsky is done. He's a middle of the pack fighter, because he's scared to get in there and actually fight after Sylvia knocked him out. By the way, back when Sylvia actually would fight to win instead of not to lose, Mir broke his arm with an arm bar (also was before Mir broke his femur in a motorcycle accident). That was sick!
I've watched MMA religiously since it started back in the early to mid 90's. I've watched it develop into a smattering of different styles to a bunch of hybrid styles to a single style basically considered MMA, where each fighter learns 4 different techniques/styles and uses a particular base style to fight from. Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, and Ju Jitsu. Every once in awhile you see a guy like Lyoto Machida who comes in with a slightly different base style of striking (Karate) or Karo Parisyan with grappling (Judo).
I also have wrestled, been in the army, learned the basics of Fencing, and gained my black belt in Karate.
I am an informed fan of not just MMA and the UFC, but of the technical aspects of MMA.
So trust me, when I tell you that Lesner is scary, and will continue to be until someone can match his size, strength, and speed. He is scary fast for a man his size.
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Fedor will end Lesner.
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
Fedor will end Lesner.
word
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@diehardbrownsfan said:
Whatever you say. You must be the real expert, LMAO.Oh come on man, that was a decent post by Thaak. Brock is more than just strength. Mir is absolutely no slouch, and if Brock was one dimensional he'd never survive against Frank Mir. Now Fedor is another matter. I don't think Brock can take him.
"I will not insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said." William F Buckley -
Fedor will end Lesner.
Well as someone else said he better do it now before Lesnar gets any better. I think Fedor walks around about 220-225lbs. -that's a 50+ pound disadvantage. If Lesnar was in his guard he may pull off another sick armbar for his highlight reel but I think his best bet is to avoid the ground with him altogether. He's slick enough to catch Brock if he can get inside. Randleman was nowhere near as massive as Brock but he showed his durability in their fight and that his attacks can nullify opponents strengths. If Brock gets a hold of him though it could be bad, and if he can trap him somehow against the cage (like he did Mir) or trap an arm (or two, also like he did Mir) it may be curtains for Fedor's 30 fight win streak.
This past fight Brock unveiled his attempt at low leg kicks. No one really knew he had them, but now people will begin to key off them and try to catch him, test his jaw. He was better off just keeping to his feet, pawing at opponents open-handed. Just maintaining distance until his opening to rush them and put them on their backs, take them into deep water. Now he opened a big door for Fedor or someone else to climb through. Maybe someone like Cain Velasquez. All in all though he had a good game plan for Mir. All those guys are too small. You gotta be over 250lbs to even consider Lesnar (unless you're Fedor the Borg of course).
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@diehardbrownsfan said:
Whatever you say. You must be the real expert, LMAO.Oh come on man, that was a decent post by Thaak. Brock is more than just strength. Mir is absolutely no slouch, and if Brock was one dimensional he'd never survive against Frank Mir. Now Fedor is another matter. I don't think Brock can take him.
Oh come on man, that was a decent post by Thaak. Brock is more than just strength. Mir is absolutely no slouch, and if Brock was one dimensional he'd never survive against Frank Mir. Now Fedor is another matter. I don't think Brock can take him.
Mir would annihilate a 245lb Lesnar, and a 285lb Mir would hopefully have a better gameplan, also resulting in probable annihilation. Sure he can get you to the ground with his wrestling, but he's just big. A huge, monster-beast bear-mauling giant of a man.
And sorry but thinking the Texas Crazy Horse is a good striker removed the majority of the credibility from Thaak's post for me. I wrestled in HS, in Junior High and College too and it still doesn't make Brock look any more "skillful" to me, even with his modified head/arm triangle to front head-lock, head-butting cheap-shotting ass.
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Oh come on man, that was a decent post by Thaak. Brock is more than just strength. Mir is absolutely no slouch, and if Brock was one dimensional he'd never survive against Frank Mir. Now Fedor is another matter. I don't think Brock can take him.
Mir would annihilate a 245lb Lesnar, and a 285lb Mir would hopefully have a better gameplan, also resulting in probable annihilation. Sure he can get you to the ground with his wrestling, but he's just big. A huge, monster-beast bear-mauling giant of a man.
And sorry but thinking the Texas Crazy Horse is a good striker removed the majority of the credibility from Thaak's post for me. I wrestled in HS, in Junior High and College too and it still doesn't make Brock look any more "skillful" to me, even with his modified head/arm triangle to front head-lock, head-butting cheap-shotting ass.
Mir would annihilate a 245lb Lesnar, and a 285lb Mir would hopefully have a better gameplan, also resulting in probable annihilation. Sure he can get you to the ground with his wrestling, but he's just big. A huge, monster-beast bear-mauling giant of a man.
And sorry but thinking the Texas Crazy Horse is a good striker removed the majority of the credibility from Thaak's post for me. I wrestled in HS, in Junior High and College too and it still doesn't make Brock look any more "skillful" to me, even with his modified head/arm triangle to front head-lock, head-butting cheap-shotting ass.
Seriously? Texas Crazy Horse was well known as a good striker in Pride. Now I didn't watch much Pride, because I thought the UFC and K1 fights were better (Hell I thought IFL was better). So I had to take the announcers words for it. Rogan doesn't usually blow smoke up people's asses, so I trust his assessment. As a matter of fact, Texas Crazy Horse only had striking in his game. Take him to the ground and he's done.
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Good god.... I never thought I would see a mma post this involved on this board.
Greg is on the money about Brock size... the UFC basically needs a super heavyweight class. I dont think Brock is a skilled MMA fighter by a long mile YET.
Because he is so much larger in strength and weight right now that his oponents and 20-40 pounds is a huge advantage in terms of strength he is getting by.
there are some other definate super heavyweights I mentioned earlier that can negate his size advantage.
I really dont think Fedor is the answer for brock, Barnett yes, and a few others... its the size and strength advantage that the UFC needs to address by creating a super heavyweight class.
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Lesner just seems unnaturally huge. He certainly is limited as far as skill set is concerned, but he's progressing very quickly.
Mir is a tough dude. His Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is awesome. Lesner tossed him around like a rag doll.
Fedor will break Lesner if they ever fight though.
I'm excited for 101, with Silva-Griffin. I'm a huge Griffin fan, but Anderson Silva is just inhuman. Should be a good match.
And after that, hopefully we can see GSP-Silva:
"The win also fueled talk of a potential St. Pierre vs. Anderson Silva match, where St. Pierre would move up to face the middleweight champion in an attempt to do what Penn failed to do in this fight – to become the first dual weight-class champion in the history of UFC.
White said he didn’t see doing that fight immediately, but if both fighters continue to win, he talked of it as a match he would like to put together, perhaps in 2010."
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Mir would annihilate a 245lb Lesnar, and a 285lb Mir would hopefully have a better gameplan, also resulting in probable annihilation. Sure he can get you to the ground with his wrestling, but he's just big. A huge, monster-beast bear-mauling giant of a man.
And sorry but thinking the Texas Crazy Horse is a good striker removed the majority of the credibility from Thaak's post for me. I wrestled in HS, in Junior High and College too and it still doesn't make Brock look any more "skillful" to me, even with his modified head/arm triangle to front head-lock, head-butting cheap-shotting ass.
Seriously? Texas Crazy Horse was well known as a good striker in Pride. Now I didn't watch much Pride, because I thought the UFC and K1 fights were better (Hell I thought IFL was better). So I had to take the announcers words for it. Rogan doesn't usually blow smoke up people's asses, so I trust his assessment. As a matter of fact, Texas Crazy Horse only had striking in his game. Take him to the ground and he's done.
Seriously? Texas Crazy Horse was well known as a good striker in Pride. Now I didn't watch much Pride, because I thought the UFC and K1 fights were better (Hell I thought IFL was better). So I had to take the announcers words for it. Rogan doesn't usually blow smoke up people's asses, so I trust his assessment. As a matter of fact, Texas Crazy Horse only had striking in his game. Take him to the ground and he's done.
You're not missing much Thaak, Heath Herring is on par with Eddie Sanchez if you are familiar with him. Sanchez made Cro-Cop's UFC initiation a fairly easy transition, but hey, he tried. Both of those guys excell in the heart department, real tough guys that won't give up. Like a Seth Petruzelli level fighter (the guy who KO'd Kimbo), well rounded in several disciplines but none of their tools are really all that sharp.
Rogan had only seen Heath in a ring and against lesser opponents (in my opinion) in Pride but those fights were wars. With limited background info he had little to hype him up with, Rogan is a hype man after all. If Heath had no ground defense it would have been Big Nog's gameplan to keep it on the ground the entire time. In fact, Heath actually escaped from Minotauro on the ground several times.
@ Sev: Barnett is intriguing. He has that shoulder that likes to pop out on him under big stress though and Lesnar's trainers would undoubtedly research that. What an ugly sight that would be for Lesnar to be wrenching on that sucker and pull it loose in the middle of the melee. Yuck!!
For Barnett maybe just sticking leg kicks and moving/running for a round, xxxx up the knee of Brock's lead leg, take away his shot. But it's not even a double leg...his takedown is VIOLENT!! Would that be enough to slow him down? Could you keep him at bay long enough to jack his knee up sufficiently? Big ass mofo....
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Damn good thread guys, I've learned a ton.
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Seriously? Texas Crazy Horse was well known as a good striker in Pride. Now I didn't watch much Pride, because I thought the UFC and K1 fights were better (Hell I thought IFL was better). So I had to take the announcers words for it. Rogan doesn't usually blow smoke up people's asses, so I trust his assessment. As a matter of fact, Texas Crazy Horse only had striking in his game. Take him to the ground and he's done.
You're not missing much Thaak, Heath Herring is on par with Eddie Sanchez if you are familiar with him. Sanchez made Cro-Cop's UFC initiation a fairly easy transition, but hey, he tried. Both of those guys excell in the heart department, real tough guys that won't give up. Like a Seth Petruzelli level fighter (the guy who KO'd Kimbo), well rounded in several disciplines but none of their tools are really all that sharp.
Rogan had only seen Heath in a ring and against lesser opponents (in my opinion) in Pride but those fights were wars. With limited background info he had little to hype him up with, Rogan is a hype man after all. If Heath had no ground defense it would have been Big Nog's gameplan to keep it on the ground the entire time. In fact, Heath actually escaped from Minotauro on the ground several times.
@ Sev: Barnett is intriguing. He has that shoulder that likes to pop out on him under big stress though and Lesnar's trainers would undoubtedly research that. What an ugly sight that would be for Lesnar to be wrenching on that sucker and pull it loose in the middle of the melee. Yuck!!
For Barnett maybe just sticking leg kicks and moving/running for a round, xxxx up the knee of Brock's lead leg, take away his shot. But it's not even a double leg...his takedown is VIOLENT!! Would that be enough to slow him down? Could you keep him at bay long enough to jack his knee up sufficiently? Big ass mofo....
You're not missing much Thaak, Heath Herring is on par with Eddie Sanchez if you are familiar with him. Sanchez made Cro-Cop's UFC initiation a fairly easy transition, but hey, he tried. Both of those guys excell in the heart department, real tough guys that won't give up. Like a Seth Petruzelli level fighter (the guy who KO'd Kimbo), well rounded in several disciplines but none of their tools are really all that sharp.
Rogan had only seen Heath in a ring and against lesser opponents (in my opinion) in Pride but those fights were wars. With limited background info he had little to hype him up with, Rogan is a hype man after all. If Heath had no ground defense it would have been Big Nog's gameplan to keep it on the ground the entire time. In fact, Heath actually escaped from Minotauro on the ground several times.
@ Sev: Barnett is intriguing. He has that shoulder that likes to pop out on him under big stress though and Lesnar's trainers would undoubtedly research that. What an ugly sight that would be for Lesnar to be wrenching on that sucker and pull it loose in the middle of the melee. Yuck!!
For Barnett maybe just sticking leg kicks and moving/running for a round, xxxx up the knee of Brock's lead leg, take away his shot. But it's not even a double leg...his takedown is VIOLENT!! Would that be enough to slow him down? Could you keep him at bay long enough to jack his knee up sufficiently? Big ass mofo....
Good assessment on Herring. He has some impressive names on his resume: Fedor, Cro Cop, Minotauro, etc. As a fighter, I don't think he has a huge ceiling.
This was funny as hell though.
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I didn't even know Heath fought Fedor. How did that go? I already know the outcome, obviously but could you tell what Heath was trying to do, what his gameplan might have been? I'll search it later, it's gotta be out there somewhere.
By the 3rd Nogeira fight he was looking pretty good, but I think it's more from experience fighting him two other times than anything else. He's big but not a hulk and doesn't have that crazy athlete speed, know what I mean? So I agree he's probably peeked and now people with higher ceilings are passing him by.
Anybody see that Jon Bones Jones fight? It still won't play where I watch them, I heard it was another really good one though. Now that guy has that elite athleticism and gymnastic-looking-springiness to make him look like the sky's the limit. In his UFC debut he annihilated Stephen Bonner like it was breakfast. It wasn't scary, just so fast it was actually hard to follow. I look forward to his potentially future matches with GSP and Anderson Silva that will probably take place several years down the road.
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I didn't even know Heath fought Fedor. How did that go? I already know the outcome, obviously but could you tell what Heath was trying to do, what his gameplan might have been? I'll search it later, it's gotta be out there somewhere.
About that clip, yeah he knocked that dude straight tfo for playing kissy-face. lol Sent a message to every fighter in the world too. He's big on respect.
By the 3rd Nogeira fight he was looking pretty good, but I think it's more from experience fighting him two other times than anything else. He's big but not a hulk and doesn't have that crazy athlete speed, know what I mean? So I agree he's probably peeked and now people with higher ceilings are passing him by.
Anybody see that Jon Bones Jones fight? It still won't play where I watch them, I heard it was another really good one though. Now that guy has that elite athleticism and gymnastic-looking-springiness to make him look like the sky's the limit. In his UFC debut he annihilated Stephen Bonner like it was breakfast. It wasn't scary, just so fast it was actually hard to follow. I look forward to his potential future matches with GSP and Anderson Silva that will probably take place several years down the road.
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Hey Greg, thanks for the PM you are a great new addition.
After seeing the Mir fight something has to be done about the weight classes, no question. Mir was primed for that fight and couldn't do anything. I'm not taking away from Lesnar either, the guy can fight, but come on man.
I don't want to see this sport go to shit in the heavy class. Make a 245 or 250 and over class or something. The sport has evolved into such a well rounded game to be successful and that fight just crapped on everything it's worked to be.
Fedor will mess Brock up, especially after having this fight to go by, but it needs to happen before he gets too much older. I'm not a MMA guru like some of you guys but do you realize there are huge fans that have no idea how much of a badass Fedor is? That's what killed me about the Kimbo hype too, people were talking about him that had no clue about the real fighters who have busted their ass to become what they are and make the sport what it is.
I got into the sport with the advent of the TV show. It was a little too violent for me before that and I was a fan of the sweet science my whole life. However, it didn't take long for me to appreciate the discipline and chess match tactics needed to be successful. I predicted then it would overtake boxing in popularity and it has, no doubt. Let's just hope it stays true and retains the sportsmanship and respect that's made it anti wrestling and boxing. What did Mir possibly say outside of some pre fight hype that deserved that type of behavior by Brock? Frank got pummeled bad by a much bigger man and then totally disrespected. This is a guy who has done a ton for the sport and its rep, including being a top notch commentator and coach. He's the smart man's heavy with a ton of skills and he just got bludgeoned by a giant that completely took away his whole game by laying on him. Pretty ridiculous really, and I don't hate Brock whatsoever, he's worked really hard to get where he's at and been a fast learner.
Give me a Fedor-Lesnar fight and then add another weight class.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
I'm a pretty big UFC fan, maybe not diehard but I appreciate it and it has overtaken boxing for me, with the exception of Kelly Pavlik.
Brock Lesnar is too damn big. I may add, he looks pretty juiced too. I thought Mir stood a chance because he's such a well rounded fighter, but the size diff was huge.
Glad to see St. Pierre is still plugging away, his ground game is tremendous right now.
Bisping has proven to be a guy who isn't as good as advertised. He won some controversial decisions he probably didn't deserve and then got wacked by old man Henderson.
Bonnar is done in the UFC, another old man in Coleman took that one too.
Somehow, someway, they gotta make a Fedor--Lesnar fight happen.
I agree on your thoughts about UFC overtaking boxing and about Kelly Pavlik, and about Bisping and Bonnar. But Brock Lesnar has been that big for a long time. He is truely a freak of nature in regard to his size. He is not juicing. He has never failed a drug test. He has given no reason tto maked anyone thing he is using PED's. The only shocker to me in that fight was that Mir got out of the first round alive. Lesnar is a fast lerner. He knew that he lost the first time around by his own mistake. That was not happening again. He neutralized Mir's assets and controlled the fight from start. The Fedor and Lesnar fight will happen...eventually. Also...I am disappointed that St. Pierre won that fight. I can't stand that guy. I do respect him though, as a fighter. He is definitely a great fighter. But, I can't wait to see Anderson Silva get his hands on him though.
Also...I am disappointed that St. Pierre won that fight. I can't stand that guy. I do respect him though, as a fighter. He is definitely a great fighter. But, I can't wait to see Anderson Silva get his hands on him though.
What don't you like about him? Can't stand the guy?....strong feelings for a spectator, does he owe you money? Or are you a big Matt Hughes, Matt Serra, BJ Penn, Jon Fitch fan. He's giving away 4 inches to Silva. If GSP wants to hold 2 belts he should go down, not up.
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