Looking back on Bill
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If a franchise at any particular moment is not defined by its players, the heck if I know what a franchise is.
We get that the Browns history, name, etc did not move from Cleveland, but the whole team moved, so it should be reasonable to say that there was a "move".
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If a franchise at any particular moment is not defined by its players, the heck if I know what a franchise is.
We get that the Browns history, name, etc did not move from Cleveland, but the whole team moved, so it should be reasonable to say that there was a "move".
If a franchise at any particular moment is not defined by its players, the heck if I know what a franchise is.
We get that the Browns history, name, etc did not move from Cleveland, but the whole team moved, so it should be reasonable to say that there was a "move".
It's just silly.
A team full of players, coaches, office personnel, trainers were being rooted on by myself, hoorta and Gipper in 1995 in Cleveland.
The next season, I, hoorta and Gipper WOULD HAVE been rooting for many of the same people but strangely, Cleveland Stadium was empty on Sundays. The team we would have been rooting for was now playing their home games in Baltimore's Memorial Stadium.
Now, none of their feats in '96 had any impact on the records of the Cleveland Browns, but lets just stop pretending that the team didn't move, regardless of technical semantics. Steve Everett didn't get fined by the NFL because he wore a CLEVELAND BROWNS bandanna on game days in 1996 for no reason.
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Man, you've been extra Gipperish this week.
Yes, the Browns moved.
Don't even try..... He'll argue what the definition of is is.
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If a franchise at any particular moment is not defined by its players, the heck if I know what a franchise is.
We get that the Browns history, name, etc did not move from Cleveland, but the whole team moved, so it should be reasonable to say that there was a "move".
If a franchise at any particular moment is not defined by its players, the heck if I know what a franchise is.
We get that the Browns history, name, etc did not move from Cleveland, but the whole team moved, so it should be reasonable to say that there was a "move".
I will not go into it now because I’m on my phone not on my computer but this goes directly to what is a legal matter. For this you have to understand franchise law a bit contract law assigibility of contracts etc. Let’s just say this franchise is not its players. It’s more the fans actually is in the players. Think of a franchise is something that has a deed. The owner of the franchise is the entity that owns and has his name on the deed
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If a franchise at any particular moment is not defined by its players, the heck if I know what a franchise is.
We get that the Browns history, name, etc did not move from Cleveland, but the whole team moved, so it should be reasonable to say that there was a "move".
It's just silly.
A team full of players, coaches, office personnel, trainers were being rooted on by myself, hoorta and Gipper in 1995 in Cleveland.
The next season, I, hoorta and Gipper WOULD HAVE been rooting for many of the same people but strangely, Cleveland Stadium was empty on Sundays. The team we would have been rooting for was now playing their home games in Baltimore's Memorial Stadium.
Now, none of their feats in '96 had any impact on the records of the Cleveland Browns, but lets just stop pretending that the team didn't move, regardless of technical semantics. Steve Everett didn't get fined by the NFL because he wore a CLEVELAND BROWNS bandanna on game days in 1996 for no reason.
It's just silly.
A team full of players, coaches, office personnel, trainers were being rooted on by myself, hoorta and Gipper in 1995 in Cleveland.
The next season, I, hoorta and Gipper WOULD HAVE been rooting for many of the same people but strangely, Cleveland Stadium was empty on Sundays. The team we would have been rooting for was now playing their home games in Baltimore's Memorial Stadium.
Now, none of their feats in '96 had any impact on the records of the Cleveland Browns, but lets just stop pretending that the team didn't move, regardless of technical semantics. Steve Everett didn't get fined by the NFL because he wore a CLEVELAND BROWNS bandanna on game days in 1996 for no reason.
It is technical semantics that you would lose your billion dollar bet on dude you get it you lose because of those technicalities if there was real money on the line I would have your money in my pocket. As it is like I said you just owe me lunch
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They moved away and THEN won a super bowl. The ultimate snub.
We hated Bill because he cut Kosar....WHILE Testaverde was injured and thought might be out for the year. He inserted Todd Philcox. We watched Philcox play horribly (as expected) and lose while Bernie played the following sunday for Dallas....and won 2 of 3 games. We had a pretty good team. And it went into the sewer...while Kosar could've kept us afloat until Testaverde came back. - The cutting of Kosar was not in the best interest of the football team at that time.
Who moved away. The Browns never moved never ever.
Who moved away. The Browns never moved never ever.
WTF is the argument here?
The owner of the franchise moved away with the franchise and a 18 wheeler or 2 full of it's possessions. He had every intention of taking the name of the franchise and colors of the storied tradition to Ratville with him (exactly like the Colts in Indy and Rams did in St Louis). Luckily, Baltimore never got to take the name of the franchise that went to 10 consecutive (Pro Football Championships) in their first 10 years of existence.
Like it's been argued; they did take some players that weren't PUMPED about leaving Cleveland just to go play for another city bailing Modell's business out of bankruptcy into good fortunes. These were guys we rooted for that wanted to make Cleveland a better franchise regardless of how much $ Art wanted to waste on the Andre Risons and Raymond Claybornes. If the NFL gave Cleveland in 99 the same 2 picks in rounds 1-3 they gave Ozzie Newsome, we might have got more picks right even if just by accident.
I never found it easy to hate ANY of the former Browns in Ratville. That was a huge conflict of interest for me; especially considering how much I wanted to see that owner fail in front of the 1 fan base that should have understood our situation far better than the lack of class they extended us for years.
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It's just silly.
A team full of players, coaches, office personnel, trainers were being rooted on by myself, hoorta and Gipper in 1995 in Cleveland.
The next season, I, hoorta and Gipper WOULD HAVE been rooting for many of the same people but strangely, Cleveland Stadium was empty on Sundays. The team we would have been rooting for was now playing their home games in Baltimore's Memorial Stadium.
Now, none of their feats in '96 had any impact on the records of the Cleveland Browns, but lets just stop pretending that the team didn't move, regardless of technical semantics. Steve Everett didn't get fined by the NFL because he wore a CLEVELAND BROWNS bandanna on game days in 1996 for no reason.
It is technical semantics that you would lose your billion dollar bet on dude you get it you lose because of those technicalities if there was real money on the line I would have your money in my pocket. As it is like I said you just owe me lunch
It is technical semantics that you would lose your billion dollar bet on dude you get it you lose because of those technicalities if there was real money on the line I would have your money in my pocket. As it is like I said you just owe me lunch
Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
It is technical semantics that you would lose your billion dollar bet on dude you get it you lose because of those technicalities if there was real money on the line I would have your money in my pocket. As it is like I said you just owe me lunch
Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
I agree. It's all technical semantics. The team of players moved or left or whatever you want to call it but as someone said, the players we rooted for in 95 were all playing in a different city in 96. We've gotten way off the original topic on this thread.
Getting back on topic, I was never one who hated Bill when he was our coach, probably why I don't hate him now or hate the Patriots like so many do. Most of his decisions were probably correct at the time. Getting rid of Bernie was not one of those, especially considering the choice to replace was Charlie Philcox or whatever his name was. The team was heading in the right direction, up until the move was announced and then it all turned to shit. Should also be noted, that I didn't live in Cleveland during this time and it was pre internet so getting Browns news was not quite as easy as it is today.
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Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
I agree. It's all technical semantics. The team of players moved or left or whatever you want to call it but as someone said, the players we rooted for in 95 were all playing in a different city in 96. We've gotten way off the original topic on this thread.
Getting back on topic, I was never one who hated Bill when he was our coach, probably why I don't hate him now or hate the Patriots like so many do. Most of his decisions were probably correct at the time. Getting rid of Bernie was not one of those, especially considering the choice to replace was Charlie Philcox or whatever his name was. The team was heading in the right direction, up until the move was announced and then it all turned to shit. Should also be noted, that I didn't live in Cleveland during this time and it was pre internet so getting Browns news was not quite as easy as it is today.
Most of his (BB) decisions were probably correct at the time. Getting rid of Bernie was not one of those, especially considering the choice to replace was Charlie Philcox or whatever his name was.
It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.
I LOVED Bernie as did most of us when he was younger and healthier. Bernie endured significant injuries to his shoulder/elbow that compromised his delivery to side arm almost underhand at times. Do I wish his ending was handled better? Absolutely. When you get right down to it - Bernie was never a starting QB again unless the starter in front of him got injured.
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Most of his (BB) decisions were probably correct at the time. Getting rid of Bernie was not one of those, especially considering the choice to replace was Charlie Philcox or whatever his name was.
It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.
I LOVED Bernie as did most of us when he was younger and healthier. Bernie endured significant injuries to his shoulder/elbow that compromised his delivery to side arm almost underhand at times. Do I wish his ending was handled better? Absolutely. When you get right down to it - Bernie was never a starting QB again unless the starter in front of him got injured.
It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
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It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
i stood right behind bill on the 50 yard line in seattle the week after he let bernie go and damn i let him have it
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It was Vinny Testaverde that BB brought here to start. The only reason you saw Todd Philcox at all was because the starting QB was injured 1 game in 92 and 4 games in 93. He didn't play at all here as a backup in 91. We did go 11-5 in the 94 season Vinny started 13 games for us (w/ a 9-4 record); and he also started the wild card game Cleveland beat NE in.
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.
WSS
Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.
WSS
I don't disagree really with any of that. Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.
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Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.
WSS
I don't disagree really with any of that. Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.
I don't disagree really with any of that. Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.
I doubt that he believed that was the case but his hands were tied.
WSS
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Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.
WSS
I don't disagree really with any of that. Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.
I don't disagree really with any of that. Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.
There's way more to the story than that.
Mark, if Belichick really wanted to replace Kosar with Philcox - why didn't he do it in 91 or 92 or for the 1st 6 weeks of 93? In all that time, Belichick only started Philcox once because the guy ahead of him was injured. That's not exactly slam dunking he felt like Todd Philcox gave us our best chance to win; any more than the rationale to bring Testaverde here for a lot more money than Philcox was making.
Anyway, the BK that was once 12-4 in 86, 8-4 in 87, 6-3 in 88 and 9-6-1 in 89 became 3-10 in 90, 6-10 in 91, 2-5 in 92 and 3-3 in 93 for us. That's 4 different years of Belichick starting Bernie first hoping to see the same player many of us adored. Aside from the declining records, the injuries to his shoulder, elbow and leg/foot weren't exactly forecasting best football ahead.
Again, 93 began with Bernie starting the first 6 games. Then Testaverde replaced him as starter for a few games before he got hurt. Immediately after that, Bernie told BB to F--- off and we gagged on Philcox the rest of that season. Meanwhile Jimmy Johnson got Dallas to sign Bernie for the final 4 weeks of the regular season. Bernie started 1 of those games and lost.
Bernie and Sipe were my favorite QBs here but when their windows closed - they slammed shut. No other NFL team signed them to be their starting QB.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Correct...but Vinny was hurt when Bernie was released so Bill thought that Todd Philcox was a better option at QB than Bernie which was a pretty poor decision based on how that first start for Philcox went. At that time...Vinny was the better QB than Bernie. The decision that I question is releasing him to start Philcox.
Maybe. Bernie had become accustomed to being the main guy. They had a successful season with Bud Carson who was basically a nebbish. Bill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate. No head coach can allow that to happen on his team. And as I mentioned before some New England fans were up in arms because he let Drew Bledsoe go. Whether you love Bernie or not a head coach cannot surrender his authority to a player who is no longer a force. Or even is.
WSS
ill came in and wanted to do his thing but Bernie didn't so Bernie was insubordinate
True. But Bill did NOT do what was best for the team at the time. As I said much earlier, we had a pretty good team and Bernie could've kept them afloat until Vinny got healthy. Bill should've bit the bullet for a while....for the good of the team. The QB position is too important to the outcome of football games. But hey, that's the way he is. He held his CB out of the superbowl and lost the game. He's a pig-head.
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I don't disagree really with any of that. Except thinking Philcox was a better option to win games.
There's way more to the story than that.
Mark, if Belichick really wanted to replace Kosar with Philcox - why didn't he do it in 91 or 92 or for the 1st 6 weeks of 93? In all that time, Belichick only started Philcox once because the guy ahead of him was injured. That's not exactly slam dunking he felt like Todd Philcox gave us our best chance to win; any more than the rationale to bring Testaverde here for a lot more money than Philcox was making.
Anyway, the BK that was once 12-4 in 86, 8-4 in 87, 6-3 in 88 and 9-6-1 in 89 became 3-10 in 90, 6-10 in 91, 2-5 in 92 and 3-3 in 93 for us. That's 4 different years of Belichick starting Bernie first hoping to see the same player many of us adored. Aside from the declining records, the injuries to his shoulder, elbow and leg/foot weren't exactly forecasting best football ahead.
Again, 93 began with Bernie starting the first 6 games. Then Testaverde replaced him as starter for a few games before he got hurt. Immediately after that, Bernie told BB to F--- off and we gagged on Philcox the rest of that season. Meanwhile Jimmy Johnson got Dallas to sign Bernie for the final 4 weeks of the regular season. Bernie started 1 of those games and lost.
Bernie and Sipe were my favorite QBs here but when their windows closed - they slammed shut. No other NFL team signed them to be their starting QB.
There's way more to the story than that.
Mark, if Belichick really wanted to replace Kosar with Philcox - why didn't he do it in 91 or 92 or for the 1st 6 weeks of 93? In all that time, Belichick only started Philcox once because the guy ahead of him was injured. That's not exactly slam dunking he felt like Todd Philcox gave us our best chance to win; any more than the rationale to bring Testaverde here for a lot more money than Philcox was making.
Anyway, the BK that was once 12-4 in 86, 8-4 in 87, 6-3 in 88 and 9-6-1 in 89 became 3-10 in 90, 6-10 in 91, 2-5 in 92 and 3-3 in 93 for us. That's 4 different years of Belichick starting Bernie first hoping to see the same player many of us adored. Aside from the declining records, the injuries to his shoulder, elbow and leg/foot weren't exactly forecasting best football ahead.
Again, 93 began with Bernie starting the first 6 games. Then Testaverde replaced him as starter for a few games before he got hurt. Immediately after that, Bernie told BB to F--- off and we gagged on Philcox the rest of that season. Meanwhile Jimmy Johnson got Dallas to sign Bernie for the final 4 weeks of the regular season. Bernie started 1 of those games and lost.
Bernie and Sipe were my favorite QBs here but when their windows closed - they slammed shut. No other NFL team signed them to be their starting QB.
Well Brian Sipe got a huge paycheck to lead the New Jersey generals
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
It is technical semantics that you would lose your billion dollar bet on dude you get it you lose because of those technicalities if there was real money on the line I would have your money in my pocket. As it is like I said you just owe me lunch
Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
I am here to tell the truth and the facts and the facts are the Browns franchise never moved. and the only people to back me up in that contention are the Cleveland Browns the Baltimore ravens city of Cleveland the city of Baltimore the National Football League state of Ohio state of Maryland county of Cuyahoga Baltimore County and anyone that says that they’ve met someone that backed up they have like as much credibility as a carnival fortune teller
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Comeon Gips - Enough already!
Technical semantics in this case is arguing for the sake of arguing like the Foolosh we always got from Ghoolosh. I always got the sense he thought if Vida Blue could pitch a no hitter on acid - he felt he could win a debate in here regardless of how much illegal TN Stupid juice and acid he powered down.
You're not being paid to win. You're in here to discuss a topic which involves reading and accepting some of the common ground people are presenting to you.
I am here to tell the truth and the facts and the facts are the Browns franchise never moved. and the only people to back me up in that contention are the Cleveland Browns the Baltimore ravens city of Cleveland the city of Baltimore the National Football League state of Ohio state of Maryland county of Cuyahoga Baltimore County and anyone that says that they’ve met someone that backed up they have like as much credibility as a carnival fortune teller
I am here to tell the truth and the facts and the facts are the Browns franchise never moved. and the only people to back me up in that contention are the Cleveland Browns the Baltimore ravens city of Cleveland the city of Baltimore the National Football League state of Ohio state of Maryland county of Cuyahoga Baltimore County and anyone that says that they’ve met someone that backed up they have like as much credibility as a carnival fortune teller
We're not denying some players moved to Baltimore... Players come and go, coaches come and go, Front offices come and go. And in the case of the Ravens and Browns even owners come and go.
But the legal entity of "The Cleveland Browns" isn't the players, coaches, or owner. It's "The Franchise" which was granted to- who was it originally- Mickey McBride? By the NFL.
In response to Flugels- sure, Modell initially tried to take the franchise along with him to Baltimore- but thanks to legalities (for those who would bother to listen) he couldn't. At least not until his lease with Cleveland ran out. He was obligated by the specific performance clause that he could move everything to Baltimore- but had to play his games in Cleveland. Period. Rather than agree to that scenario- Modell caved in. And relinquished the Browns franchise to the NFL to be held in trust, while he got his new shiny Baltimore Ravens Franchise.
So thank goodness for legalities- or the few Cleveland NFL fans that would have remained would have been rooting for the Baltimore Browns.... Maybe had that happened- the NFL would have played nine-nice and granted Cleveland the expansion franchise- the Cleveland Bulldogs. Would you have supported them? I know I wouldn't have....
That's the history- guys. If you don't believe it- I really don't care, but believe anything else- you're buying into revisionist- or misinformed history...
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