Let the DA vs. Quinn debate begin
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yep... now that Quinn is playing the salarys is higherAnd of course there is that. But, at least for this year, his big jump can't kick in because he needed to take at least 55% of the snaps. Which can't happen since he started in the 9th game. Which makes you wonder if the delay in starting him was financially based (god I hope not).
Is it based on snaps or games!... da had alot of 3 and outs! ide say there is still a chance
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You explain this cap crap so much better than I do...I barely understand it...and yet I find people who know less every day....Well, in all fairness, I do take from sources that explain it. I just happen to be able to manage to comprehend some of it, sometimes. It's not rocket science, but is sure is a lot of fuzzy math.
People just to many times assume they know it and understand it, based on a quick 3 second comment on TV. That only works in the NBA and MLB where they are guaranteed contracts and soft caps.
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yep... now that Quinn is playing the salarys is higherAnd of course there is that. But, at least for this year, his big jump can't kick in because he needed to take at least 55% of the snaps. Which can't happen since he started in the 9th game. Which makes you wonder if the delay in starting him was financially based (god I hope not).
Is it based on snaps or games!... da had alot of 3 and outs! ide say there is still a chance
It's truly games for that very reason.
And JADBF, yeah, we don't even want to go there on if Brady not coming in sooner being about money.
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hey i forgot about this thread.\ said:
BTW did you listen to ANY of the commentators who also say, "there is no way Cleveland can afford to keep both these QBs on the roster"...I guess they don't know anything either?
i read your responses, sounded like you were getting pretty excited there.
and no, i didn't listen to ANY commentators who think they know the Browns better than I do..........unless they're from Cleveland.
you talking about the idiots that like to talk about team irrelevance and how many crunches brett favre's wife can do? if so plz don't get me started there, i did once before and it didn't turn out so good.
which pundits do you recommend JADBF? hopefully ones with access to the Browns books, of course, cause anything else is just fiction.
if Brady gets hurt late this season, is 5 mil (or 6.45 mil) still too steep then?
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just so i've got this straight, it's proposed that we might trade last years starter to avoid paying a 5 mil roster bonus due in March and be left with just Quinn and Dorsey and try to fill that spot, or we could simply keep him for approx 1.45 mil more? am i missing anything? we keep him we pay it, we trade him we pay it too (just a smidge less) but maybe get something in the trade? maybe. maybe some low garbage picks, that is. i'd rather see them keep him than take some bullshit for him and let their investment go elsewhere. that includes passing on a 3rd rd pick or lower imho.\ said:
The hit against the cap next year, and only next year, is a little less than 5M if CLE cuts him before the bonus of 5M is due in March. You keep him, CLE is basically paying him 6.5M to be a back up (5M roster bonus and 1.45M in salary). That is easily two new guys on D next year. You can get an vet back up for less.As you noted, it all comes down to if CLE can trade him for something.
besides, who we really gonna get that will be better than DA for 1.45 mil or less per year? he's turn-key don't forget. 2 years in Chud's system>>i see a lot of value in that. the 5 mil is a wash so really he'd be a great #2 backup with 24(?) starts for them to the tune of 1.5 mil. it still seems pretty reasonable to me.
i like the bird in the hand.
the guy was good enough to start last week.
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My favorite part of Terry Pluto's article today:
Q: Will Quinn be any better?
A: He has thrown eight passes in the regular season. There is a body of research that shows if a quarterback starts at least 35 games at a BCS school, and completes at least 57 percent of his passes, he tends to have a successful pro career. Quinn had 46 starts at Notre Dame, completing 59.9 percent. For what it's worth, Anderson had 38 starts at Oregon State, completing 50.7 percent.
ok, and this one too:
Q: Is there one part of Anderson's game that worries you the most?
A: Completing only 49.8 of his passes. That ranks 33rd in the NFL. His touch, especially on short throws, has been poor. Here is a disturbing downward trend, a month-by-month look going back to October 2007: 62.4; 59.6; 53.1; 49.6; 49.5 and finally he was 17-of-33 (51.4) in the Baltimore game.
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... elf_1.html
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just so i've got this straight, it's proposed that we might trade last years starter to avoid paying a 5 mil roster bonus due in March and be left with just Quinn and Dorsey and try to fill that spot, or we could simply keep him for approx 1.45 mil more? am i missing anything? we keep him we pay it, we trade him we pay it too (just a smidge less) but maybe get something in the trade? maybe. maybe some low garbage picks, that is. i'd rather see them keep him than take some bullshit for him and let their investment go elsewhere. that includes passing on a 3rd rd pick or lower imho.\ said:
The hit against the cap next year, and only next year, is a little less than 5M if CLE cuts him before the bonus of 5M is due in March. You keep him, CLE is basically paying him 6.5M to be a back up (5M roster bonus and 1.45M in salary). That is easily two new guys on D next year. You can get an vet back up for less.As you noted, it all comes down to if CLE can trade him for something.
besides, who we really gonna get that will be better than DA for 1.45 mil or less per year? he's turn-key don't forget. 2 years in Chud's system>>i see a lot of value in that. the 5 mil is a wash so really he'd be a great #2 backup with 24(?) starts for them to the tune of 1.5 mil. it still seems pretty reasonable to me.
i like the bird in the hand.
the guy was good enough to start last week.
It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.
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I can conceed that DA is not the answer for the Browns. But, I am not willing to say that BQ is the answer after one game. He had a good game, no doubt. It was against a very very bad defensive team and he is still throwing to receivers that can't catch. Plus did he even throw to BE more than once? I want to see the rest of the season. BQ will get to face many tough defenses and they will start to game plan for the 10 yard and under passes. I think he has the skill set but I want to see him do it more than one game. He does it for 3 or 4 in a row, that is a different story.
I am not doing a DA vs BQ comparison, because DA is not the answer does not make BQ the answer. Lets see him prove it. Remember, DA looked awful good his first several weeks.
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I can conceed that DA is not the answer for the Browns. But, I am not willing to say that BQ is the answer after one game. He had a good game, no doubt. It was against a very very bad defensive team and he is still throwing to receivers that can't catch. Plus did he even throw to BE more than once? I want to see the rest of the season. BQ will get to face many tough defenses and they will start to game plan for the 10 yard and under passes. I think he has the skill set but I want to see him do it more than one game. He does it for 3 or 4 in a row, that is a different story.I am not doing a DA vs BQ comparison, because DA is not the answer does not make BQ the answer. Lets see him prove it. Remember, DA looked awful good his first several weeks.
I don't think any sensible fan would disagree. There are 7 games left for CLE to figure out who Quinn is. That will go a long way to determining what CLE will do with DA at seasons end.
Oh, and BE was thrown to more than once. There was the play negated by the Winslow penalty. Quinn missed him twice on throws, including once at the left side of the end zone in the second quarter. He had another chance at a deep sideline pass later in the 3rd QTR, but Bly knocked it away
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we pay the bonus or the cap hit (which is about the same) so we spend the 5 mil regardless, right?\ said:
It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.is there a way for the team to get around paying one or the other?
if not it's a wash ........they spend almost 5 mil and possibly gain a (low?) draft pick (if anything- basically spending 5 mil for nothing and still losing a starting caliber QB)
or spend 6.45 mil and add a starting caliber QB with 24 starts in Chud's offense, basically adding a QB for 1.45 mil. i dunno. maybe we're missing something. how many years left on BQ's deal? enough, right? and BE and S. Jones are due this year. any others?
if the Browns don't keep DA in '09 i seriously doubt it's because they couldn't afford him. well managed teams seem like they can afford the things they want, and this team has gone after many a few already.
in general, this team seems to like to rule out possibilities, make certain it's sure before turning any corners. it sees what it wants and goes and gets it. these ventures don't always pan out but if this is any indication for the future, if they want DA, odds are it'll happen.
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we pay the bonus or the cap hit (which is about the same) so we spend the 5 mil regardless, right?\ said:
It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.is there a way for the team to get around paying one or the other?
if not it's a wash ........they spend almost 5 mil and possibly gain a (low?) draft pick (if anything- basically spending 5 mil for nothing and still losing a starting caliber QB)
or spend 6.45 mil and add a starting caliber QB with 24 starts in Chud's offense, basically adding a QB for 1.45 mil. i dunno. maybe we're missing something. how many years left on BQ's deal? enough, right? and BE and S. Jones are due this year. any others?
if the Browns don't keep DA in '09 i seriously doubt it's because they couldn't afford him. well managed teams seem like they can afford the things they want, and this team has gone after many a few already.
in general, this team seems to like to rule out possibilities, make certain it's sure before turning any corners. it sees what it wants and goes and gets it. these ventures don't always pan out but if this is any indication for the future, if they want DA, odds are it'll happen.
I see your point and where you are going.
I have to do some digging, but I think also keeping him will hurt more on the cap in 2010. On top of that, the escelators in BQs contract kick in if he is the starter, so that has to be factored in. That extra 2M in keeping DA might hurt more than it looks right now. Especially with BE's contract coming up, Jones's contract coming up, and KW looking to redo his deal.
Like I said to JADBF, there is a lot of fuzzy math when it comes to the cap and such. But you certainy don't move or cut DA unless there is no doubts on Quinn.
Me personally, I'd be just as content with Dorsey at back up instead of DA (in the world where we assume Quinn is indeed the real deal). He knows the O, can make the throws, and has starting experience.
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Foolish.
You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.
Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in. That is why you let him go, recover the cap space, and then go find a decent journeyman QB for a backup. If you already have that guy in Dorsey, then draft a Qb in the 6th or 7th round to come in and get pounded by the D during practice.
At this point, through good or bad, up or down, you keep B.Q. on the field unless he is injured or the team gives up on him.
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Foolish.You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.
Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in. That is why you let him go, recover the cap space, and then go find a decent journeyman QB for a backup. If you already have that guy in Dorsey, then draft a Qb in the 6th or 7th round to come in and get pounded by the D during practice.
At this point, through good or bad, up or down, you keep B.Q. on the field unless he is injured or the team gives up on him.
My thoughts exactly Preacher. The only way DA gets back in this season is if Quinn gets injured, they're not going to flip flop starting QB's for the rest of the year. This is Quinn's team now so you have to cut ties with DA and get what you can for him and look for a free agent back up in the offseason if Dorsey isn't the answer. It was going to come to this sooner or later and it looks like sooner has arrived.
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From Pro Football weekly
http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NF ... 110708.htm
Browns' QB controversy ended by Quinn's strong debut
By Mike Wilkening
Nov. 7, 2008
Say this for the sliding Browns: They won’t have to endure any talk of a QB controversy for the time being.
Brady Quinn was impressive in his first career start on Nov. 6, completing 23-of-35 passes for 239 yards with two touchdowns and no interceptions in a 34-30 loss to Denver. Quinn was not sacked, and he was more effective evading pressure than predecessor Derek Anderson. Short of an injury or significant and sustained regression from Quinn, we hear Anderson’s days as Cleveland’s starter are over for this season, and likely for the long term as well. Anderson, who is signed for two more seasons, now faces an uncertain future with the club.
Anderson’s supporters will claim the offense’s problems were hardly all on him, and their point was rather well-illustrated in Week 10, even in Quinn’s relatively smooth starting debut. For example, TE Kellen Winslow caught 10 passes for 111 yards and two touchdowns, but he also made three big mistakes in the fourth quarter: an offensive pass-interference penalty that zapped one Cleveland drive, a fumble that led to a Denver touchdown and a drop on Cleveland’s final offensive play.
The timing of the switch from Anderson to Quinn caught some by surprise. The Browns announced the move one day after the Week Nine loss to Baltimore, a game in which Anderson’s play fell off considerably after Edwards dropped a deep ball early in the fourth quarter. However, at his weekly Monday press conference, Romeo Crennel did not indicate he was going to change quarterbacks. The move was announced later in the day, giving rise to speculation the decision was not Crennel’s, as he later claimed it was. However, a source close to the club notes it shouldn’t be all that surprising Crennel would make a change at quarterback. He benched Charlie Frye in favor of Anderson in Week One of the 2007 season, and he indicated he had considered pulling Anderson during Week Four at Cincinnati before Anderson rebounded to lead a comeback win.
No matter how the Anderson-Quinn swap went down, the ramifications on this season — and the Browns’ future — are clear. Quinn will get the rest of the regular season to learn on the job, a job that is unquestionably his in 2009. That looks to be one of the few certainties in Cleveland as the Browns fade from contention earlier than could have been expected after such a promising ’07 campaign.
Sorry Lum's. Maybe if you pull those Savage and Crennel quotes from before the season's start, and wish real hard, they will be more than what people told you they were, GM/Coach speak.
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As I know the debate is only going to start to go even more, I am gonna put this up now as an apple to apple.DA in his first NFL start (which I will acknowlede was againt PIT in 2006):
21/37, 276 yards, 7.5 Y/A, 1 TD, 1 INT, 0 sacks, 1 FUM, 1 FUM Lost
CLE scored a total of 7 points.
BQ in his first NFL start (against DEN in 2008):
23/35, 239 yards, 6.9 Y/A, 2 TD, 0 INT, 0 sacks, 0 FUM, 0 FUM lost
CLE scored a total of 30 points.
Well put Masters!!!
Just wait until we can compare their 3rd start when you can repost the day DA had vrs a TB team only capable of 4 wins that season.
Folks, for ONLY 1 practice with a brand new unit of receivers he hadn't been working with in practice all year - leading us to 30 points and LONGER time of possession (32 min to 28 min) SHOULD have been a winning formula if our defense had shown up.
- Tom F. (Isn't it refreshing not to have to stress out hoping our QB knows what color jerseys we're wearing this week? BTW, if we subtracted Cribbs' TD vrs Balt - was that even a LITTLE interesting in the 2nd half?)
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there's still a cap hit--what's the difference? they committed to the 10 mil guaranteed, whether it's on the front or the back, regardless of how the contract is layed out.The difference it is still 5 million you have to pay him.
I don't know about you, but even billionaires don't like to waste money.
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JADBF I do believe that 4.5M is not in addition, because it would still be spread (along with that 5M in March) through the life of the contract, unless DA is dumped. When you dump, that's when the pro rated goes to one year. As long as a guy is still under contract you can continue to spread it across the life.
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Makes sense, but a part of it would still count against this year though correct?Yes, I do believe a part would. If I am not mistaken (which I very well could be), if he were to play out his contract, in 2009 the second third of his signing bonus (2.3M) would count against the cap.
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If you are a Browns fan you don't care who the starting QB is, you just want a good one in their, if you are a fan of a certain QB that is fine too, just admit it and move on.
My question, for all the DA supporters, what would you say if that had been DA in their against the Bronco's and put up the same numbers and the same out come?
Simple you would be pinning the blame where it needs to be laid for this game, on the D, anytime you put up 30 against an opponent, and are up by that much you should win, but when your D is as porous as it was that nite, that is where most of the blame needs to be. Shoud Quinn take some blame yes, just like the receivers share some of the blame for DA's problems. But the bulk of DA's problems are his.
Do I like DA yes, do I think he can make it in this league sure to a point, do I think he is the best QB on the roster for the Browns NO!
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