***Jets VS Browns Gameday Thread***

calfoxwc

@tour2ma said:

I think your cause and effect are disjointed...

Last season Baker was great at getting the ball out quickly with only the occasional deep shot... I really don't see a major difference in the playcalling this season so far excepting fewer snaps under Center which is the key to an effective PAP attack.

Plus so far our rushing attack has been good... certainly was in Game 2. Game 1? Not that much less so, but we were playing behind the sticks so much due to penalties that we couldn't go to it as much.

Otherwise what is different is that Baker is not getting the ball out quickly???

Could be better coverage, but Given the upgrade of our WR crew, I doubt it.

Could be rust... but rust more explains "bad" than inconsistent...

Is he not reading the D as effectively? Maybe, but again, I doubt it.

Is he turning down windows he threw into last year? I think so... and the only reason he would is that he's gotten "cautious"...

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it....

Freddie!!! More snaps under Center, PLEASE... Set up that PAP game!

Upvote

Nero

I saw the same as Tour did. I cannot tell if the playcalling was that different (I'm not an expert) but the sense for me was that Baker didn't want to force the ball.

I'm OK with it for a few reasons: 1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.

2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.

I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.

EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.

The Gipper

@texasag1969 said:

I don't recall that-Gramps Ag?

BTW my grandkids gave me a T-shirt that reads:

GRAMPS.

THE MAN.

THE MYTH.

THE LEGEND.

ALL IN HIS OWN MIND

?

fify

Tour2ma

@nero said:

1. There are games like last night in which the only thing that the offense is required to do is scoring some points and not making mistakes. I'd take a boring win before a rollercoaster of losses and wins all season through.

2. I'd rather see Baker being "overcautious" some games in order to learn when to take risks than him not changing one bit. Jameis Winston comes to mind. He ALWAYS takes risks and I haven't seen a calm game by him ever. Smart people learn to tune their instincts and change their habbits. Probaboy Baker was a bit overcautious and not "loose" but him being able to changing his playstyle a bit shows me that he is able to change and progress. In any case, you always can count on him "loosening up" in some laser throws every once in a while, as we saw yesterday.

I have always been afraid of Baker turning into an INT machine due to his aggresiveness, so watching him being calm yesterday is not that bad for me.

EDIT: I don't expect him to end up becoming a cerebral Tom Brady, but I don't want a Favre either.

Agree... but (see below)...
"Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.

Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...

Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.

IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!

This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.

We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.

CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS

@hoorta said:

Go figure that one Vag. Sure, you got a great player- but don't tell me he's the one piece that gets you to the Super Bowl this year. Serious upgrade to the Steelers piss poor secondary?

Did you just call me Vag or are you referring to the actual vag?

?

Nero

@tour2ma said:

Agree... but (see below)...

"Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.

Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...

Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.

IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!

This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.

We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.

True that. Though there are some factors that may have affected his performance last night.

First, I wouldn't say the Jets have a bad defense and second and foremost, Njoku and other receivers have got pretty big hits on 50/50 passes that Baker had made, so he might have been thinking on not risking another receiver.

hoorta

@vagitron said:

Or a stud corner/safety came on to the market that they scouted heavily who is in his second year with plenty of years left. The steeler defense is immediately better.

Me and Tour addressed this in another thread- Sure, as with the Browns "drafting" OBJ with our first round pick, you "drafted" Minkah with your first round pick next year. Great- probably better than you could have done, unless the Steeler train derails this year- and if you don't think that's a distinct possibility, you have your rose colored homer glasses on. What I'm seeing for the Steelers in 2020 is what we're going to see from them in 2019, going to be mighty tough to upgrade. Now if by another stroke of Steeler luck, Rudolph turns out to be another third round QB Russell Wilson good, it might be another story. I will say right now I'm taking the Steelers to go 0-3 when they travel to the West coast to play the 49ers this week.

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

Did you just call me Vag or are you referring to the actual vag?

?

LOL, see above...

hoorta

@tour2ma said:

Agree... but (see below)...

"Overcautious(ness)" has no place in football... sorry. Not trying to go all semantical on ya (even tho I prolly am), but the word is "conservative"... and it should reside on the sideline with the playcaller.... not on the field.

Yes, Freddie should have been relatively conservative all nite... and even more with us up 10 and our D dominating the depleted Jets Offense. Even the quick slant to OBJ for the gamebreaker was a conservative call. That said...

Whatever route combination is in a call Freddie phones into Baker, it is then Baker's job to select the best possible target based upon the reads he gets pre- and post-snap... and then cut it loose to that target. And "cut it loose" is the operative phrase... you can't guide the ball... you can't aim it... you cut it loose. It's the same for a frozen rope as it is a touch pass. Same as it is for an MLB pitcher... fast ball or change up or curve... you cut it loose and trust your body to remember the thousands of times you've thrown that pitch before. I'm sure there are analogous futbol examples as well.

IF you cut it loose and have been fooled and it leads to a pick, then you tip your hat to the opposing DC and get busy learning how you were fooled so We don't Get Fooled again... No NO!

This is the NFL... windows are more often than not tight even for open targets.

We know Baker can do this... we saw it last year and we saw it in Game 1 and we saw it last nite. It's just that we're seeing "something else" we've not seen before this season.

I'm noticing Baker not seeing guys who are wide open, and His accuracy is nowhere near as consistent as last year. I posited elsewhere that you can't discount the supposed minor wrist injury has something to do with it. And at least in the Jets game, Williams had an entire week to figure out how to confuse a QB he knew better than any other one in the NFL.

SdBacker80

As soon as Baker and Offensive Coaching staff understand that OBJ, Landry, Chubb and Hunt in a couple months are YAC maniacs and you don’t need to feed the ball to them 20-30 yards down the field. Things will look better. Right now Baker is attempting 20 tough throws a game probably 10-12 more than most QBs in the NFL

food for thought

CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS

@sdbacker80 said:

As soon as Baker and Offensive Coaching staff understand that OBJ, Landry, Chubb and Hunt in a couple months are YAC maniacs and you don’t need to feed the ball to them 20-30 yards down the field. Things will look better.

The 89 yard TD wasn’t YAC? A lot of the short throws were guarded very well by NY. Screens didn’t work much. There were certainly “short” throws last night.

Edit: Baker missed open Chubb out of the backfield forcing it to OBJ and getting picked off as a result

jiggins7919

@calfoxwc said:

True, but I think Baker is playing different because he knows there are more limitations with his offensive line. Every qb that gets big pressure has it usually affect his play. I think Kitchens needs to call more short throws and Baker needs to not force the big long gains that he's used to.

Depends on the defense they face, I suppose. Williams' defense is pretty good and stopping the rush....?

Dan Orlovsky (who I respect) wouldn't stop talking about the lack of rhythm the Browns had on offense. He said we constantly hiked the ball with 1 second on play clock with Baker frantically clapping his hands for the ball. Also, we didn't appear very effective with the empty backfield. Baker simply wouldn't cut it loose.

My biggest worries are Baker missing easy passes and Baker holding onto it. How about that one to Landry? It was a 2 yard route and Baker threw high. It went off Landry's hands and could've been a pick 6. It was an easy pass that would've generated an easy first.

Orion

Baker, something that I noticed:

The running back (or short receiver) can be wide open 5-7 yards downfield....but Baker wants the big type gainer....so he doesn't throw it to him. But by the time he concludes that the deeper pass isn't going to be there, the short receiver is covered. If he would just take what the D is giving him the team would be a lot better off.

gumby73

from what I'm reading..here's my 2 cents that might be worth a penny.. Meet the new guy that prefers larger chunk plays than dinking down the field.. https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2019/5/10/18512991/what-to-expect-from-todd-monken-stat-overview or https://www.patreon.com/posts/how-will-todd-23961759 we just played 2 DC's that knew our dink offensive passing game..adding these new concepts to Freddie's offense may take more than 2 games..

Ibleedbrown

@jiggins7919 said:

Dan Orlovsky (who I respect) wouldn't stop talking about the lack of rhythm the Browns had on offense. He said we constantly hiked the ball with 1 second on play clock with Baker frantically clapping his hands for the ball. Also, we didn't appear very effective with the empty backfield. Baker simply wouldn't cut it loose.

My biggest worries are Baker missing easy passes and Baker holding onto it. How about that one to Landry? It was a 2 yard route and Baker threw high. It went off Landry's hands and could've been a pick 6. It was an easy pass that would've generated an easy first.

I noticed the consistent down to the wire snapping of the ball from us but sorta saw it as a feather in the cap sort of thing. Manipulating every second. There was at least one time the play clock hit zero and the refs didn’t see in time to flag it.

But yeah, something seems amiss with Baker. And good observation in your other post about Baker favoring the long ball, but he just ain’t pulling the trigger fast enough.

He’s missing high, and he doesn't seem to trust his off speed stuff.

SdBacker80

@clevelandwantsplayoffs said:

The 89 yard TD wasn’t YAC? A lot of the short throws were guarded very well by NY. Screens didn’t work much. There were certainly “short” throws last night.

Edit: Baker missed open Chubb out of the backfield forcing it to OBJ and getting picked off as a result

And the OBJ TD play worked right? The other screen to Chubb was set up well but one of their DTs made an excellent play. We have a luxury of simplifying the route tree. When you have better athletes on the perimeter (for once) the five yard curl (easy throw) can net you a first down or a bigger play with some of the guys we have. Watch the DBs on OBJ he has had a huge cushion the last two weeks. Simple high percentage throws that don’t have to go between a second and third level of defenders. We can make it easier and still take a few shots down field. But this take shots down field and occasionally check down to the shorter route it’s not high percentage football

jiggins7919

@sdbacker80 said:

But this take shots down field and occasionally check down to the shorter route it’s not high percentage football

I'm a little shocked we don't get that buttonhook to Landry 4-5 times a game. He gets a giant cushion and it's pretty simple to make that toss. Perhaps we really are just figuring it out.

I'm also hoping we can run the ball better. We don't hardly try to run on 3rd and short, and last night was a textbook Nick Chubb game, but he never really got cooking save the one TD. Let's get it all working this Sunday and beat down a good team on national tv!

TexasAg1969

One thing that stood out to me last night was Garrett's demeanor. I have not seen him play with such intensity to really run through people rather than just bring them down. I think he was trying to make an emphatic statement to Williams that he really could have done better last year without a muzzle on his playing options. I believe he made his point to all of us.

Mudfly

@texasag1969 said:

One thing that stood out to me last night was Garrett's demeanor. I have not seen him play with such intensity to really run through people rather than just bring them down. I think he was trying to make an emphatic statement to Williams that he really could have done better last year without a muzzle on his playing options. I believe he made his point to all of us.

Here's what I like about Myles right now.....and I know the penalties are bad(baaaad myles, baaaad).....but I love him creaming these guys.....relentless......and here are the reasons why...

1) I was concerned he could be a lil soft, w/o killer instincts....

2) I didnt know, for sure, that he REALLY wanted to be great and put in the effort....

3) With his intellect, I had concerns how much he wnated or needed football....

And now I see he aint soft....he's giving 110% effort....he wants it baaaad......and he is striking fear into opposing QB's and teams in general....and the fouls just add to the fear factor.....Im all in 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Canton Mike

@mudfly said:

Here's what I like about Myles right now.....and I know the penalties are bad(baaaad myles, baaaad).....but I love him creaming these guys.....relentless......and here are the reasons why...

1) I was concerned he could be a lil soft, w/o killer instincts....

2) I didnt know, for sure, that he REALLY wanted to be great and put in the effort....

3) With his intellect, I had concerns how much he wnated or needed football....

And now I see he aint soft....he's giving 110% effort....he wants it baaaad......and he is striking fear into opposing QB's and teams in general....and the fouls just add to the fear factor.....Im all in 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also questioned Myle's tenacity previously thinking he may be too laid back, but I LOVE the way he played last night. He showed he has some MEAN in his game!!

Mike

jcam222

I think his MMA training unlocked a beast in him. Just have to keep it focused. A lot of the personal fouls are also very judgment based on the refs part.