So whats wrong with Baker?

dawg2fan

@baconhound said:

That bomb was due to an offside call ala Aaron Rodgers. Calls were bad but they scored 20 points in one quarter and 8 points in 3 quarters. This is the same story, 2-4, going to be 2-5. Maybe they get lucky on the back end of the schedule and get to 7-9, yay

The Steelers, Bills, and Patriots all have strong pass rushes. Baker doesn't do very well against those teams. That could be 4 losses. My faith in this team is dwindling, hopefully we get Trent Williams as I have been hearing.

Nero

@dutch-oven said:

All set up by yet another Baker air-mailed pass.

@poeticg said:

Two things:

1) Baker threw that ball over the first defender, that was a perfect ball. Get your eyes checked.

2) The ball wasn't as high as you make it out to be, Njoku could have caught that ball standing on his feet- He didn't need to leap for it. If he just keeps running it's a clean catch, he's going to get hit yeah, but the hit wouldn't have put him on IR.

After watching the replay in 0.25 speed... I'll give this one to Po.

Was the pass a bit high? Yes, but the pass had to go over number 50. Njoku catches it with his hands in front of his chest. Even a bit lower.

With his height, he could catch it with his hands fully extended upwards, but to secure the catch anyone would probably make a very small jump, to have your arms in a better position.

Given the athletic freak Njoku is and his jump height, he used his skills to secure the ball wasn't high. He jumped way too much, but I can't blame him. Maybe I would do the same if I could jump that much. It's bad luck and a nasty hit by the DB.

SdBacker80

@jiggins7919 said:

After missing him originally over the middle.

Here's the one stat that REALLY scares me regarding Baker, and I don't have the exact numbers, but I have the gist (from Browns Daily). From a clean pocket with no pressure, Baker was around 58%, and he was only pressured on something like 25% of his drop backs. So if you want to blame the OL still, you better think twice. Baker didn't get sacked last game and still couldn't deliver the goods far too often. I don't have the stat in front of me, but last year Baker FEASTED on clean pockets and destroyed people. And did I mention he doesn't throw it deep still? Go watch that 4th and 7 to Landry. Watch how wide open OBJ is for the touchdown. It's nauseating. No QB hits them all, but Jesus man. OBJ used to score touchdowns...with Eli Manning!

I think it was the Rams game I saw the lovely empty backfield set that I love and there were three of the laziest go routes I’ve seen on a 3rd and 7?

The Pats, the Niners, the Jets with Darnold, the Bills, etc. all feast on the short intermediate game and then take the occasional shot down the field. It’s look left open deliver if not go right if not run or throw it away.

Do we have quick check off reads?

Go back to August first drive of the season against the Skins it was dump down...dump down...dump down....shot down the field.

i believe four weeks into the season baker led the league in leaving clean pockets

how soon we forget all those years of struggle we had a hall of fame left tackle pro bowl center and RT and QB with no decision making skills and we saw pressure. We have never run the ball this well- and you can credit Chubb but he’s got room and he’s had room most of the year.

I like Baker and the Shine is still on Freddie but it’s wearing a little. Those two need to figure things out quickly

SdBacker80

I don’t understand the Njoku love. Sure he’s had a couple nice red zone grabs but he’s good for a drop or two inside the 20s, a dumb penalty and a missed block or two that results in negative plays.

We could be a better team without him if we didn’t have his clone Harris.

Baker misses 18 play calling and Higgins more than Njoku

jiggins7919

@sdbacker80 said:

I don’t understand the Njoku love. Sure he’s had a couple nice red zone grabs but he’s good for a drop or two inside the 20s, a dumb penalty and a missed block or two that results in negative plays.

We could be a better team without him if we didn’t have his clone Harris.

Baker misses 18 play calling and Higgins more than Njoku

Njoku saved our ass a few times, especially on the fade route in the end zone. The fade is something that takes time and chemistry to get right, and he and Baker definitely had it. We simply don't have a "go-to" guy in the end zone OTHER than Nick Chubb. I have a question for you, how many Browns wide receivers have a touchdown catch this year?

One, and it's OBJ. Baker does not have a red zone TD pass to a wide receiver through 6 games, and that's DESPITE throwing the ball more than we RUN IT. I've been saying it all year, Baker Mayfield simply is NOT throwing TD passes...that's why we're 2-4. In one series against the Rams (the series that could've tied it up), Baker made the wrong read 3/4 times. You almost have to TRY to screw that up like that. Not only that, Baker missed a WIDE OPEN OBJ once again by targeting Demetrius Harris two weeks ago.

Let's also be fair, that throw to Calloway was good enough to be caught for a TD, and at the very least, shouldn't have been a friggin pick. But you know what this year feels like? This season feels like Deshone Kizer ALL OVER AGAIN. Before you start laughing and then screaming at me, I beg you to look at the numbers and tendencies. Remember Kizer bailing out of the pocket and then running to the right and chucking it? Sound like anyone you know? Remember Kizer throwing several pretty good passes that bounced off the Hands of Kenny Britt and got returned for a TD or were just picked off in the end zone? Sound familiar? Do you REMEMBER that Kizer had 11 interceptions through the first six games and couldn't throw a TD pass to save his life? Kizer either ran it in, turned it over, or we got a FG. Do you recall Kizer making every wrong guess in the red zone and missing wide open targets?

You get the point. Is Baker Mayfield better than Deshone Kizer? Yes, I'm not stupid. They're going to look at some film, and you know what they're going to see? Opposing defenses are too often ready for what's coming. Several of Baker's INT's have been the result of the "RPO" pass route being jumped by the defender. Baker fakes the handoff to Chubb, then rifles a slant to Landry or OBJ. It's a pretty play when it works, and it's a play that can actually score if it's OBJ catching it. The PROBLEM is that it's also very easy to identify, and the defender is often behind the route, so they can close FORWARD to catch it. "So Jiggins, you arrogant blowhard, what's the answer?!"

I'm terribly glad you asked. So, if you watch the games again, you'll notice on our RPO pass plays that defenders are breaking on the routes as SOON as Baker pulls the handoff. This is nothing new, and it happens on virtually every play-action pass, BUT what's NOT happening is Baker using his shoulders and eyes to fake the defenders (who are already breaking on routes) and then either going deep or hitting the TE. We've actually done it once or twice for big gains, but I'm stumped as to why we stopped. If Baker pulls the handoff, gives a shoulder fake, and OBJ fakes the slant and instead goes out and up...it's got huge potential. What I'm trying to say is that Baker is NOT using his eyes and shoulders to alter the position of defenders, and it's causing interceptions, missed TD's in red zone, and general pathetic misery. For example, we're in the red zone, at the 10 yard line. Everyone knows we look to the TE. If Mayfield FAKES that ball to the TE and looks for the OTHER TE who slip-blocks (and gets help from RB) on the other side, he'll be open. Promise.

That's way too many words to simply say this: Teams are jumping our routes and reading Baker's eyes and body language. A couple of very quick shoulder gestures and fakes would do wonders for getting people open and keeping people honest on defense.

SdBacker80

Joe Montana did this on the regular he’d pump left or right and then go the opposite direction sometimes he would even look and pump that way knowing full well his pre snap read wasn’t taking him there. Simple. Nothing crazy here.

Baker is dealing with cat and mouse game the Defense is putting forth after a season of tape. It’s time to play the game back a little and at the very least incorporate some deception in his game

jiggins7919

@sdbacker80 said:

Baker is dealing with cat and mouse game the Defense is putting forth after a season of tape. It’s time to play the game back a little and at the very least incorporate some deception in his game

Bingo, and I'm confident it will happen. Perhaps not against the Patriots, lol, but I do think we'll play better. Btw, check out this article on Kitchens calling the same play. It's literally like the new kid playing Madden that doesn't understand calling the same play back to back will kill you. *sigh*

https://www-cleveland-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10/repeating-play-calls-hasnt-been-working-very-well-for-the-browns-freddie-kitchens-film-review.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15713423439488&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleveland.com%2Fbrowns%2F2019%2F10%2Frepeating-play-calls-hasnt-been-working-very-well-for-the-browns-freddie-kitchens-film-review.html

MDDawg

@poeticg said:

Two things:

1) Baker threw that ball over the first defender, that was a perfect ball. Get your eyes checked.

2) The ball wasn't as high as you make it out to be, Njoku could have caught that ball standing on his feet- He didn't need to leap for it. If he just keeps running it's a clean catch, he's going to get hit yeah, but the hit wouldn't have put him on IR.

The pass was late and allowed the defenders to close in on him. He threw another late pass in that game to Beckham who has also sandwiched but fortunately wasn't injured.

Duckpins

The weirdest thing the Kitchen cooks is 2 of the same play right in a row WTF? Who does that? Baker is regressing fast and Cam is out there. Cam is only 6 years older and in his prime. I'd take a look.

jiggins7919

@sdbacker80 said:

Joe Montana did this on the regular he’d pump left or right and then go the opposite direction sometimes he would even look and pump that way knowing full well his pre snap read wasn’t taking him there. Simple. Nothing crazy here.

No kidding, Pat Mahomes JUST did the exact thing we're talking about and it worked like a charm. He shoulder faked the quick pass to the left, the receiver released down field presumably instead of blocking, and was WIDE OPEN for a TD. Bronco DT got a fingernail on the ball or else it was 6.

Tour2ma

Now we're bemoaning the hit Njoku took? DBs live for those cartwheel shots... one of the few old school hits that's still legal.

@ravn5220 said:

This kind of thread on your boards make me chuckle my little ass off. What's wrong with Baker? He sucks, that's what's wrong with him. He was ok for about 3 minutes, but you all refuse to realized it. He became Clevelanized. Translation: He's on the Browns, so that, by default, makes him a loser. In other words, even if he was going to be a good NFL quarterback at one time, the fact that he's a Brown means his career will take a shit. 11 interceptions vs 5 td's..one of the bottom ranked qb's through six games. I keep saying it, but I'll repeat...a bunch of delusional fans. Stop, just stop. One of your boys was over on our boards talking about how Mayfield turned your team around, from 1 and 31 in 2 years, to 7-8-1, trying to convince us how big of an improvement he made for your sorry franchise. That's the differences between the 2 teams: 7-8-1 makes you all want to have a parade and party, 7-8-1 would make us call for heads to roll. That's what being Clevelanized does in a nutshell...settles for mediocrity, or below mediocrity actually. I love that you guys are now being brought down to reality after a few minutes of hype, and starting to realize, "Hey, we're the Cleveland Browns, we aren't supposed to be good".

You're not big on persuasion are you?

TexasAg1969

@tour2ma said:

You're not big on persuasion are you?

He went to the Dale Carnegie school and got his certifiable there.?

mjp28

@texasag1969 said:

He went to the Dale Carnegie school and got his certifiable there.?

Dale who? You must be an old geezer like me to remember that.

"How to win friends and influence people". Eh?

hoorta

@tour2ma said:

Now we're bemoaning the hit Njoku took? DBs live for those cartwheel shots... one of the few old school hits that's still legal.

You're not big on persuasion are you?

Our trolls countdown clock to getting launched into the Internet ether is ticking Tour. Its around T-minus 96 hours.

In the meantime, I'd like to remind those who don't care for his flame baiting there is an ignore function.

TexasAg1969

@mjp28 said:

Dale who? You must be an old geezer like me to remember that.

"How to win friends and influence people". Eh?

Yep-here's my home movie taking swimming lessons with my fellow old geezers from across the border wall. ?

Tour2ma

Here's a little PFF video...

For the most part it's pretty lightweight with the depth of a kiddie pool, e.g., "inaccurate", " holding the ball"".... and never getting to the whys behind these "insights"... but then at the 5:26 mark they talk about PFF's "Turnover Worthy Plays" measure.

Bottom line... Baker has produced 9 Turnover Worthy Plays... and these have resulted in 12 INTs. In other words his turnover results have been far worse than his play.

It's cause for hope.

hx214

Meh, I'm not that worried about Baker.

Being Cleveland Fans, we all know a bit to well what a bad QB looks like.

Baker, even with his bad play this year, still looks better than 99% of the play we have watched over the years.

He throws the ball like an NFL QB, he hits small windows like and NFL QB.

His throwing has been off a bit (Sailing High) But his ball doesn't look like Colt McCoy's or Brian Hoyer's

calfoxwc

@hx214 said:

Meh, I'm not that worried about Baker.

Being Cleveland Fans, we all know a bit to well what a bad QB looks like.

Baker, even with his bad play this year, still looks better than 99% of the play we have watched over the years.

He throws the ball like an NFL QB, he hits small windows like and NFL QB.

His throwing has been off a bit (Sailing High) But his ball doesn't look like Colt McCoy's or Brian Hoyer's

he didn't have bad play last year. He had a better oline, far better play on the right side last year. Teams know what the Browns offense can do with Baker at the helm, so they've figured out to run over the oline and that tells the tale. Even Brady got sacked when his oline failed. The Browns oline has failed often. and missing Njoku is another problem. Not many problems, but still a few.

jiggins7919

Whatever is wrong with Baker seems to be infecting virtually every player on our offense, and I don’t have a way to describe it. We have the same offensive coordinator that we had for the second half of last year, and we’re a team that looks absolutely miserable on offense. That one, 3 play sequence that resulted in 3 turnovers was some of the worst football I’ve ever seen in my life, and it literally seems like we simply “infected” by something that we can’t shake. Even in the Seahawks game, a game we started off with THREE straight TD drives became an exercise in futility and shame.

Baker is not the same guy he was last year, and much of it has to do with his accuracy and his ability to make “big time” throws. Gone are the long bombs to Landry between 3 defenders. The first play 60 yarder to Perriman that he dropped in the bucket? A distant memory. The deep throws to Landry in the seam? Hardly there at all. The most disturbing thing of all is how terrible Baker is in the red zone, and as a rookie, he was oddly proficient. This year? He looks like Helen Keller trying to land the fighter jet on that Nintendo game “Top Gun” (if you don’t remember that, just know it was impossible…WITH sight and hearing).

Sure, Chubb looks great, but you can’t excuse the 3 fumbles either. I don’t have a stat to back this up, so I could be talking directly out of my ass here, but we lose approximately 99.9% of the fumbles we commit. In other words, when we fumble the ball, we LOSE the ball virtually every time. I mean, GOD FORBID we recover just ONE of those Chubb fumbles. Just one! How about the one against the Seahawks that effectively doomed us? The kick-fumble that was a TD? The 40 yard fun that was basically a punt? Chubb NEVER fumbled the ball last year, so why is he infected now with the Browns pandemic? (I WILL say that many people on our board remarked how Chubb ALWAYS carried the ball with one hand and almost NEVER covered it up with both to protect it. It was never an issue because he never fumbled it, but as we all see, it’s an issue NOW)

The infection has further spread to people like OBJ. Did you know he leads our team in dropped passes? He also leads our WR’s in touchdown receptions with…*drum roll please*….ONE. ONE FREAKING TD PASS. Jarvis has none. Higgins, none (been hurt). Calloway? Bitch please. Ratley? Don’t go there. Our franchise QB cannot throw TD passes, and I have NO idea what’s going on. Granted, Calloway should be tied with the lead with ONE, but of course the pass clanged off his Braylon Edwards hands and the pass floated directly to the defender for an interception. I mean, of course it did, right?

Back to Baker.

Ok, I swear to God, if we throw ONE MORE bubble screen to OBJ, I’ll lose my freaking mind. I think we’ve thrown that pass 27 times for a grand total of 7 yards. You know what else I’m tired of? Our idiots trying to run the pick play. Just STOP already, we can’t run it correctly! Yes, it’s frustrating when EVERY other team can run it and we can’t, but you know what? Life isn’t fair. Move on, try something else, and maybe, just MAYBE try to find some pass plays your team is actually GOOD at executing.

hx214

@calfoxwc said:

he didn't have bad play last year. He had a better oline, far better play on the right side last year. Teams know what the Browns offense can do with Baker at the helm, so they've figured out to run over the oline and that tells the tale. Even Brady got sacked when his oline failed. The Browns oline has failed often. and missing Njoku is another problem. Not many problems, but still a few.

Oh I know the issues this year, I’m more talking about Baker as a future player (next 10 years).

I really hope this easier schedule is the cure for most of the issues and they get it rolling.