Quinn-essential
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Ocon to tell you the truth it was nice seeing the high qb rating and seein the high percentage of completions. Chad Pennington.
He did fine and with a short week he performed really well. That does not mean he is the best qb for us nor gives us the chance to win. I dont care about qb ratings, brett favre threw how many picks a couple of weeks ago but still threw enough tds to WIN. Thats what matters to me. Who gets into the playoffs is determined by who wins not a qb rating or who is popular, look at the Giants last year with Eli.
This team two weeks in a row showed the systematic flaws EXACTLY mirroring the same results with the same scenario. We plucked out the qb and still the same result which means to me the QB was not the problem in the first place.
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\ said:
Amazing the power of preconcieved perception based on draft desire. He played a terrible defense and did not go vertical. He reproduced 2 tds and could not throw another one in. He threw high and in the dirt yet never gets the criticism.Quinn gets the benefit of one on one coverage against a third db on winslow who caught all underneath passes because of stallworth in the lineup and a running game against an anemic defense. After one game we did not win with him having the chance to lead us to a game winning drive just like DA the week before that does not matter. WE LOST just like the week before and this qb played a much worse defense with more personnel helping.
preconcieved perception colors the actual TEAM realities. Its like mass hypnosis, especially when you have two games back to back to compare it to.
So much for 'supporting whoever is under center', huh?
The difference in play is that Quinn did not throw an interception that sealed the loss. In case you didn't notice, he had no trouble running the 2 minute drill, was able to evade pressure, even when the 'shitty line' broke down, and actually completed passes.
You're weclome to follow Anderson to whatever team board he ultimately goes to.
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\ said:
...look at the Giants last year with Eli...Yep, we're saying similar things and we are being over zealous in supporting him, but why not? We all agree, and are eager to see, how Quinn does these last 7 games.
Eli did dramtically improve his stats for the home stretch:
Weeks 1 to 15 = QB rating of 70. 19 TD's and 19 INT's.
Week 16 through the playoffs = QB rating of 105. 10 TD's and 2 INT's.
But I'd take a win over a rating any day. It's just when its losses and low rating, ala DA, then its time to evaluate the situ.
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\ said:
This was better, with the highlights and photos and all.I agree, I like the way you posted it with the photos and highlighted quotes. Nice job!
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no lemosley instead of tossing a int it was an incomplete which did the same thing. Brady did fine I am ok with him in, What I am not ok with is what I have been saying for weeks that DA was fine for the last 5 games overall it was other TEAM problems and now that the "Savior" is in and the results were replicated EXACTLY its pretty glaring.
Brady had more to work with against a terrible d, he did great with his efficiency but I never got caught up in comp ratings because there are too many things that affect that. I think he will do fine hopefully not like Pennington who completes a lot of high efficiency stuff but does not stretch the field and win.
Brady mania has was insane at the stadium, if DA had done the exact same thing you people would be calling for his head still. The same excuses would be he threw crappy high balls and dirt balls and was bailed out by KW, he did well but he does not have the "it" factor to lead us to a win, It was a terrible D and this would be the "good" da so it does not count, he could not throw a td in 3 tries in the redzone if that was BQ his athleticism and decision making would have made a TD, when he had the ball on the last drive and threw incompletions and a ball to kw with too much heat and not enough touch.....
Wait that was BQ and nary a word of criticism. Now suddenly we have the qb spot solidified it must be other factors... talk about hypocritical.
Brady did fine but DA probably would have done better if you take what he did to Baltimore D versus if he had to deal with Denver you Bradymania backers dont want to admit the comparison between to back to back games with the EXACT SAME SCENARIO PLAYING OUT. Brady had more and played against a weaker D and did not put up any more tds even though we could run the ball and had stallworth plain and simple.
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Sev, you amaze me.
Stretching to find some type of argument on the QB issue you have actually fallen to criticising Quinn because he didn't stretch the field vertically? Guy posts a 100 passer rating in his first start and leads the team to 30 points. That's pretty promising. Don't you want to see more? Maybe he's better than DA.
No one on these boards was blaming the poor team results solely on DA. What we have had to argue with you on countless occassions is the accountability from the QB position. It just so happens that of all the positions that have underperformed (QB, WR, RB, LB, and DB's) only the QB position had a highly touted first round pick on the bench.
Did the result of the game change with Quinn? Nope. The team is struggling now, especially on defense.
Is there ANY logical argument to support sticking with DA based on where we are THIS WEEK? Nope. Quinn's debut was pretty damn good. Better than we've seen since expansion. (Remember, DA's "debut" was his playing time two years ago, not the Cincy game.)
Drop it. When Quinn inevitably plays a poor game, you can ressurrect the "I like 6th round QB's better than 1st round QB's" argument.
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I dont have to drop anything, you people are amazing. Brady played a terrible defense and we replicated the EXACT SAME RESULTS. Admit it had that been DA all of those things I said earlier he would have been criticized for.
Hes only good against terrible Defenses, his high and dirt balls were bailed out by kw, he threw incompletions when we had to win at the end of the game, he could not throw the ball in the redzone with 3 tries, suddenly we dont see these same criticisms. I am not using them on BQ he did fine, you people who use these on DA are suddenly quiet and all happy. Its the team not the qb..... two identical games back to back with the same results at home with different qbs, one has less tools against a Much better D the other more tools against a terrible d yet both threw 2 tds and could not punch another one in with 3 tries in the redzone and both had the ball with a chance to win the game in the 4th. Both led us to 27+ points with a 13+ lead into the second half of the game and the defense self destructed in the end of the 3rd and the 4th.
Suddenly the micro criticism is gone and we have a franchise qb. What a bunch of hypocrits. It has always been the other TEAM problems this entire year overall DA was doing fine, not perfect but the other systemical issues should have been considered in all your criticisms instead of the BQ syndrome.
Consider these two games back to back with similar results and the "most important" quotient was changed yet the same thing happened. We did not WIN and lost the same way.
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Ocon the thing that helped Eli last year
1.Competent coaching leadership and planning
2.A GREAT defense
3.Recievers who actually caught the ball consistently
4.A running game
out of those 4 factors which of those do we as a team exhibit? NONE that is why I have been adamant in my position.
Ocon you are a physician, if a surgical team does not have enough Rn's, but has a surgeon, no competent management, temp surgical assistants, a anasthesiologist who gets the mix right half of the time how well do you think that team for surgery is going to do over say 16 surgeries? Are you going to start with micro criticisms of everything the surgeon is doing? Thats exactly what fans are doing right now.
They want to blame the surgeon currently operating and replace him hoping for different results. How effective would that be for the hospital?
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shep you know pretty much how I operate from the political board. I am not stretching I am looking at the team and organization not just the qb.
If you were to take these two back to back games and look at the results that extremely mirror each other and then look at the variables of what has changed, take into other factors such as relative defensive strength and other role players it is pretty easy to see.
All of those micro criticisms of DA that are constant are suddenly not in play now even though the results are the same it bS. Its the high draft pick qb syndrome that all franchise fans have to a degree. The team itself is flawed and the qb was NOT the factor holding it back offensively or as a team.
Factually DA had less and played against a superior defense versus what brady had in more support and a weaker defense yet the results of the TEAM were virtually the same in the manner and timing of the collapse and the offesive lead that was built. DA has had great games against weak defenses and when that happens all of you go well that high rating and tds was because of circuc catches and a weak defense not because he was any good, it was the cockpit not da, suddenly its all Quinn and the high throws and low throws and incompletes that all qbs have dont matter even though they did with Da. Hypocrites.
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Again Sev, if DA did what Quinn did on Thursday (no sacks, no INTs, no should of been an INT, no 3 and outs when the team was first down in the 4th quarter, no false starts, no offensive confusion, no badly burned TOs, consistantly moving the chains, and no WTF throws), then you wouldn't see people on here (maybe 1 or 2 guys) all over DA. Did you read this board after the NYG game?
DA was getting blasted for his bad play. Plain and simple. Completing 50% of passes every week is worthy of being blasted. And last week people were blasting the D and the play calling, just as they are this week. Maybe if you posted in those threads instead of only chiming in on the threads about the QB......
As to Quinn and the high and low throws, it's his first start. You're trying to compare reactions of a guy on his first start vs. a guy on his 20th+ start. And other than the throw at Wrights feet on the last drive (which why the hell CLE was throwing on 2nd and 1 or 3rd and 1, with 2 TOs left is beyond me), he didn't have high or low throws than made you go WTF.
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Read Shep's post on his starts. Now I know why you normally don't look up stats.
Also comparing last week to this, Quinn didn't throw a pick on the last drive to win the game. DA did.
Finally, DA didn't play poorly against the Ravens. I know I never indicated that he did. The team has issues, we all get that. However, based off one game (and one game only) Quinn looks promising. What we KNOW about DA is that after 20 starts he remains an erratic player who struggles to complete passes, is wildly inaccurate in the intermediate to short game, and is a liability when forced to move in/out of the pocket.
So, as I said, let it go. Quinn's going to keep playing. If he continues to look like a guy who can lead the offense and post decent stats then he's an upgrade. Pretty simple really.
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\ said:
Sev, that wasn't Anderson's first start. Wasn't even his second. Or third.He started three games in 2006 after coming off the bench in the KC game. His first start was a 27-7 loss to the Steelers. His passer rating was 83. He was so-so. His second and third starts got progressively worse. Passer rating in his third start was 12.
Jesus!!!! Is Sev, Lum and wants to forget that DA started games in 2006? DA had a good first start in 2007 against a bad Cincy D (if it is good for the goose, it's good for the gander). What did he do against a bad OAK team the following week? A 57 QBR, completed less than half his passes, threw a pick, got sacked once for a loss of 24, and fumbled.
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\ said:
Read Shep's post on his starts. Now I know why you normally don't look up stats.
Also comparing last week to this, Quinn didn't throw a pick on the last drive to win the game. DA did.
Finally, DA didn't play poorly against the Ravens. I know I never indicated that he did. The team has issues, we all get that. However, based off one game (and one game only) Quinn looks promising. What we KNOW about DA is that after 20 starts he remains an erratic player who struggles to complete passes, is wildly inaccurate in the intermediate to short game, and is a liability when forced to move in/out of the pocket.
So, as I said, let it go. Quinn's going to keep playing. If he continues to look like a guy who can lead the offense and post decent stats then he's an upgrade. Pretty simple really.
We also know that DA's scouting report out of HS and college is the same scouting report on him today:
"His decision-making is suspect." "He has a tendency to be very deliberate with his delivery." "Gets an unusual number of passes batted down at the line for a guy his size." "Tends to try to 'rocket arm balls' into tight spaces." "Makes ill-advised throws." "Has difficulty making accurate throws in close quarters." "Over-powers balls on short throws." "Lacks mobility." "Can get flustered." "Tends to sail intermediate throws."
And those didn't even point out the fact that his arm amps up when the pressure sets in.
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Please Masters I have been in on these thread since the beginning of last year. I have been constantly consistent. I back up my opinion with stats and figures instead of conjecture.
Quinn had a good start that led to a loss because it was not the QB that was the problem that all you suffering from brady mania seem to think. The proof is in the results that mirrored back to back games EXACTLY. It was NOT DA, in fact he produced more with less against much better.
You want to be "happy" with the loss because of so called promise and better comp stats and qb rating? ELI still has his super bowl ring regardless of his qb rating last year. Why did the jets trade away 68.8 comp rating 89.6 qb rated chad pennington to get gunslinging td throwing Favre who also throws a lot of ints?... Eli manning 56.1 comp rating 73.9 qb rating... winner in a super bowl how does that fly in the face of the almight comp rating and qb rating?
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I back up my opinion with stats and figures instead of conjecture.
No Sev, you don't. You just always tell us you do.
Your most recent attempt at giving us "facts" was presenting DA's breakout game against Cincy as his "first start".
Are you going to address that one?
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\ said:
Derek Anderson FIRST START 20 for 33 60.6 comp rating 328 yards 5tds 1 int 121.00 passer rating Leading to a team WIN.That was his first start Greythan go look it up at NFL.com
quinn had a great STARTING debut? it was but Anderson's was Better.
You went to all the effort to use the drop downs to get to his 2007 stats and didn't bother to select 2006? Which included his 4INT game in career start #3 (remind you of another game he started in 2007 when CLE needed a win against that same team you listed for his 1st career start?).
http://www.nfl.com/players/derekanderso ... eason=2006
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Eli manning 56.1 comp rating 73.9 qb rating... winner in a super bowl how does that fly in the face of the almight comp rating and qb rating?
This was covered already.
Eli's run of 5(?) games is what made the Super Bowl possible. His stats during that run? QB rating of 105. 10 TD's and 2 INT's. (Thanks Ocon)
What, exactly, gives you any sense that DA would somehow be able to put a five game stretch together like that? He never has. Not even close. We're three years into watching DA. If Quinn plays anything like how he did this first week, the DA experiment is over. I'll go one further, if Quinn pans out to be as bad or worse....
... we're in the market for a QB.
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\ said:
Please Masters I have been in on these thread since the beginning of last year. I have been constantly consistent. I back up my opinion with stats and figures instead of conjecture.You mean those that are wrong - see you listing for DA's first career start. So where are you on the threads blasting Romeo, BMac, the D as a whole, on Lewis and his comments, etc.?
Quinn had a good start that led to a loss because it was not the QB that was the problem that all you suffering from brady mania seem to think. The proof is in the results that mirrored back to back games EXACTLY. It was NOT DA, in fact he produced more with less against much better.
Pa-lease! So Brady had 3 and outs in the 4th when Den was coming or first took the lead? Brady had should of been picks? The games didn't mirror each other at all, other than the loss. The out rage for the loss does mirror each other, w/ the exception that the QB play can't take blame (though Brady took it, unlike DA). QB play has been an issue. Isn't it the only or biggest issue for CLE? No. But it was one issue, and one that had a chance to be resolved. You fight the fires you can, no matter what business or sport. More w/ less? Because Stallworth was playing (yet Eric wasn't)? So the lack of Stallworth explains away 5 of 8 starts of completing less than 60% of passes (oh, and those drops, even if you give him those don't bring that average up to NFL quality). Four of the 8 being at 51% or less.
You want to be "happy" with the loss because of so called promise and better comp stats and qb rating? ELI still has his super bowl ring regardless of his qb rating last year. Why did the jets trade away 68.8 comp rating 89.6 qb rated chad pennington to get gunslinging td throwing Favre who also throws a lot of ints?... Eli manning 56.1 comp rating 73.9 qb rating... winner in a super bowl how does that fly in the face of the almight comp rating and qb rating?
Who said I was happy with a loss? Saying that blows your first statement out of the water. Read the board, other than the QB related threads. Big Ben put up crap in his SB too. But he is a leader and made plays when his team needed them, just like Eli. This is what you guys who defend DA seem not to grasp. It's not just the bad play, but bad play when an NFL QB must step up. And if you wouldn't take Favre over all but 3 NFL QB's in the league, your a fool.
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