Kitchens fate?
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Just him or a defensive minded coach?
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Here are my two cents for what it worth. I am not in favor of axing Freddie..........yet. Will see how the last couple games play out. I have been underwhelmed by Steve Wilks for one. The D is gone to hell since Garret and Vernon have been out and the run D yesterday was atrocious. Problems I have seen with Freddie this year include discipline, time management, overly aggressive, gets too pass happy. Some of this has been improved to varying degrees over the course of the season. Somethings you would think would be self evident like, lets not hurry up and run a plays at the end of the half so Russel Wilson can then get the ball and have time to score. Stuff like that was just stupid.
Also I say get rid of Lindley, I don't think he is doing anything to help Baker be a better QB. Lets get someone who is experienced brought in to help Baker out. I want Baker to have that moxy to go deep, but also the have the good sense to know when you can take the shorter play when its open that still gets you the first down. Baker went from one of the best in the red zone last year to one of the worst this year. To me a lot of that comes down to coaching. So I would axe Wilks and Lindley for sure, maybe the DL coach too and keep the rest with everyone on notice. Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.
Here are my two cents for what it worth....Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.
The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.
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How do you think the Steelers would be faring if they had the Browns coaching staff?
And I'll let you tell me how the Browns would be doing if they had the Steelers coaching staff.
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This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
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I'd be for Urban. I have no idea why he was at the Redskins game.
Super advance scouting for when he takes the Cowboy's job...
BTW... Chris Mortensen said today that he doubted Urban was doing anything, but visiting former players yesterday.... BUT...
... he has previously commented about what a desirable job that the Dallas HC position is. ?
Super advance scouting for when he takes the Cowboy's job...
BTW... Chris Mortensen said today that he doubted Urban was doing anything, but visiting former players yesterday.... BUT...
... he has previously commented about what a desirable job that the Dallas HC position is. ?
Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor? For which he has not yet had surgery? If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.
Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor? ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that. The talent is there for him for the most part.
Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch, and if the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings, he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him?
If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up.
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How do you think the Steelers would be faring if they had the Browns coaching staff?
And I'll let you tell me how the Browns would be doing if they had the Steelers coaching staff.
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This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
Sounds like.......we shoulda kept Gregg Williams.
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Here are my two cents for what it worth....Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.
The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.
The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.
That all may be true, it seems to me the game plan Sunday given we are down 4 starters on defense including your best player would be to be run heavy, focused on Chubb and Hunt and then open up the passing game later. Manage the game on the ground to give as much help to your defense as you can. We didn't do that. You have to weigh the impact of firing a guy after one season versus giving them a fair shot. I think Freddie is a big enough guy when he looks back to see where he f'd up. Whether he can improve on that and maybe fight his natural impulses I don't know. If do do dump Freddie this year, go after Rivera, he will bring the discipline sorely needed.
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This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
Sounds like.......we shoulda kept Gregg Williams.
Sounds like.......we shoulda kept Gregg Williams.
I have a feeling that would have flamed out sooner than later though... I think Williams as head coach would have ended up being a drama circus in Berea. (But he would have been a superior pick to Freddie short-term, definitely)
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Sounds like.......we shoulda kept Gregg Williams.
I have a feeling that would have flamed out sooner than later though... I think Williams as head coach would have ended up being a drama circus in Berea. (But he would have been a superior pick to Freddie short-term, definitely)
I have a feeling that would have flamed out sooner than later though... I think Williams as head coach would have ended up being a drama circus in Berea. (But he would have been a superior pick to Freddie short-term, definitely)
What's that old saying about watch what the good teams are doing and do that? From the top down.
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Here are my two cents for what it worth. I am not in favor of axing Freddie..........yet. Will see how the last couple games play out. I have been underwhelmed by Steve Wilks for one. The D is gone to hell since Garret and Vernon have been out and the run D yesterday was atrocious. Problems I have seen with Freddie this year include discipline, time management, overly aggressive, gets too pass happy. Some of this has been improved to varying degrees over the course of the season. Somethings you would think would be self evident like, lets not hurry up and run a plays at the end of the half so Russel Wilson can then get the ball and have time to score. Stuff like that was just stupid.
Also I say get rid of Lindley, I don't think he is doing anything to help Baker be a better QB. Lets get someone who is experienced brought in to help Baker out. I want Baker to have that moxy to go deep, but also the have the good sense to know when you can take the shorter play when its open that still gets you the first down. Baker went from one of the best in the red zone last year to one of the worst this year. To me a lot of that comes down to coaching. So I would axe Wilks and Lindley for sure, maybe the DL coach too and keep the rest with everyone on notice. Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.
Problems I have seen with Freddie this year include discipline...
Remember when discipline was THE #1 criticism of Freddie and penalties were THE measure of discipline his critics pointed to?
Well fourteen games in let's look for any signs of progress...
- First seven games: 70 total - 38 Off - 24 Def - 7 ST - (1 ???)
- Last seven games: 41 total - 16 Off - 20 Def - 5 ST
The improvement on the Offensive side of the ball... the side Freddie is most directly responsible for IIRC... is essentially responsible for the team's improvement.
While the actual 111 total lands us a spot at 3rd most in the league, a total of 82, double the second half of the season to date lands us in a tie for 4th fewest.
One other note... in the age of "block in the back" racking up only 12 ST penalties, less than one per game, strikes me as pretty remarkable.
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This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
So.... you want Belichick...
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
Me, neither... as in I can't believe you didn't.
I was solidly in Williams' corner. When Dorsey picked Freddie, I said at the time it was because Freddie would be more pliable... would bend more readily to Dorsey's way of thinking. So I agree there would have been more drama/tension in the Berea offices... but better there than in the locker room/ on the sideline, which is where it is now.
I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...
... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.
Just an impression.... I could be wrong...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Here are my two cents for what it worth....Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.
The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Super advance scouting for when he takes the Cowboy's job...
BTW... Chris Mortensen said today that he doubted Urban was doing anything, but visiting former players yesterday.... BUT...
... he has previously commented about what a desirable job that the Dallas HC position is. ?
Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor? For which he has not yet had surgery? If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.
Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor? ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that. The talent is there for him for the most part.
Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch, and if the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings, he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him?
If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up.
Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor? For which he has not yet had surgery? If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.
Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor? ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that. The talent is there for him for the most part.
Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch, and if the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings, he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him?
If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up.
Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery.
Remember when discipline was THE #1 criticism of Freddie and penalties were THE measure of discipline his critics pointed to?
Well fourteen games in let's look for any signs of progress...
- First seven games: 70 total - 38 Off - 24 Def - 7 ST - (1 ???)
- Last seven games: 41 total - 16 Off - 20 Def - 5 ST
The improvement on the Offensive side of the ball... the side Freddie is most directly responsible for IIRC... is essentially responsible for the team's improvement.
While the actual 111 total lands us a spot at 3rd most in the league, a total of 82, double the second half of the season to date lands us in a tie for 4th fewest.
One other note... in the age of "block in the back" racking up only 12 ST penalties, less than one per game, strikes me as pretty remarkable.
and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
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Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor? For which he has not yet had surgery? If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.
Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor? ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that. The talent is there for him for the most part.
Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch, and if the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings, he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him?
If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up.
Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery.
Remember when discipline was THE #1 criticism of Freddie and penalties were THE measure of discipline his critics pointed to?
Well fourteen games in let's look for any signs of progress...
- First seven games: 70 total - 38 Off - 24 Def - 7 ST - (1 ???)
- Last seven games: 41 total - 16 Off - 20 Def - 5 ST
The improvement on the Offensive side of the ball... the side Freddie is most directly responsible for IIRC... is essentially responsible for the team's improvement.
While the actual 111 total lands us a spot at 3rd most in the league, a total of 82, double the second half of the season to date lands us in a tie for 4th fewest.
One other note... in the age of "block in the back" racking up only 12 ST penalties, less than one per game, strikes me as pretty remarkable.
and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery.
and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
Is an arachanoid cyst like a spider in the brain?
The thing is, there were times last year where he was visibly in pain or having some kind of problems on the sidelines.
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Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery.
and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
Is an arachanoid cyst like a spider in the brain?
The thing is, there were times last year where he was visibly in pain or having some kind of problems on the sidelines.
Is an arachanoid cyst like a spider in the brain?
The thing is, there were times last year where he was visibly in pain or having some kind of problems on the sidelines.
Arachanoid refers to a type of brain tissue. Ok, I did further research- you can surgically treat them and put in a tiny shunt to drain them. Here's a picture of one of those cysts... Definitely enough to give you major headaches....
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This is what I want from the next head coach:
I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach.
So.... you want Belichick...
I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season.
Me, neither... as in I can't believe you didn't.
I was solidly in Williams' corner. When Dorsey picked Freddie, I said at the time it was because Freddie would be more pliable... would bend more readily to Dorsey's way of thinking. So I agree there would have been more drama/tension in the Berea offices... but better there than in the locker room/ on the sideline, which is where it is now.
I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...
... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.
Just an impression.... I could be wrong...
So.... you want Belichick...
IMO there's more than one way to skin a cat. Could be a more stoic disciplinarian, could be a soft-spoken guy, could be an asshole, could be a player's coach - doesn't necessarily matter. My personal belief is that, at this level, discipline comes from respect and respect is earned through showing you know your shit.
I don't think Freddie gives off that vibe in the least and I don't believe the players respect him.
I was solidly in Williams' corner. When Dorsey picked Freddie, I said at the time it was because Freddie would be more pliable... would bend more readily to Dorsey's way of thinking. So I agree there would have been more drama/tension in the Berea offices... but better there than in the locker room/ on the sideline, which is where it is now.
I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...
... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.
Just an impression.... I could be wrong...
I was a Williams guy myself, Tour. I thought he did a nice job in the interim and I thoroughly enjoyed his take on accountability. A lot of people weren't fans because of Bountygate, which is understandable, but I wanted to see how what he could do with this young team of personalities. I thought he brought a good mesh of in your face "fuck you" antics and preaching perfection in even the smallest actions.
As a matter of fact, the guy I wanted the least was Kitchens.
I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...
... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.
Just an impression.... I could be wrong...
Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point. Kitchens looks in over his head, plain and simple. And he's seemingly lost a portion of the locker room, which is an even bigger concern. Once that fissure starts to form, there's not enough spackle in the world to patch it up.
I remember many years of posting "we're just building up to go on a run, we're just waiting for that window" on this very board.
Well, this is finally it. This is that window. We've got two years before we need to start really locking up the core of this team to big contracts. We can't waste it hoping that Freddie figures it out.
Good talent can't overcome bad coaching.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
We continue to have discipline issues,
Based upon???
Whitehead, Garrett, Randle, Higgins, Njoku, OBJ and Landry yelling at coaches and yes Baker calling out the medical staff and looking like a homeless wino during press conferences...is that enough for you???
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