Kitchens fate?
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Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point.
True enough, but there weren't all that many of us pulling for Williams either IIRC...
I do agree that if Freddie loses a chunk of the locker room, then that's the death knell...
True enough, but there weren't all that many of us pulling for Williams either IIRC...
I do agree that if Freddie loses a chunk of the locker room, then that's the death knell...
Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.
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So.... you want Belichick...
IMO there's more than one way to skin a cat. Could be a more stoic disciplinarian, could be a soft-spoken guy, could be an asshole, could be a player's coach - doesn't necessarily matter. My personal belief is that, at this level, discipline comes from respect and respect is earned through showing you know your shit.
I don't think Freddie gives off that vibe in the least and I don't believe the players respect him.
I was solidly in Williams' corner. When Dorsey picked Freddie, I said at the time it was because Freddie would be more pliable... would bend more readily to Dorsey's way of thinking. So I agree there would have been more drama/tension in the Berea offices... but better there than in the locker room/ on the sideline, which is where it is now.
I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...
... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.
Just an impression.... I could be wrong...
I was a Williams guy myself, Tour. I thought he did a nice job in the interim and I thoroughly enjoyed his take on accountability. A lot of people weren't fans because of Bountygate, which is understandable, but I wanted to see how what he could do with this young team of personalities. I thought he brought a good mesh of in your face "fuck you" antics and preaching perfection in even the smallest actions.
As a matter of fact, the guy I wanted the least was Kitchens.
I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...
... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.
Just an impression.... I could be wrong...
Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point. Kitchens looks in over his head, plain and simple. And he's seemingly lost a portion of the locker room, which is an even bigger concern. Once that fissure starts to form, there's not enough spackle in the world to patch it up.
I remember many years of posting "we're just building up to go on a run, we're just waiting for that window" on this very board.
Well, this is finally it. This is that window. We've got two years before we need to start really locking up the core of this team to big contracts. We can't waste it hoping that Freddie figures it out.
Good talent can't overcome bad coaching.
IMO there's more than one way to skin a cat. Could be a more stoic disciplinarian, could be a soft-spoken guy, could be an asshole, could be a player's coach - doesn't necessarily matter. My personal belief is that, at this level, discipline comes from respect and respect is earned through showing you know your shit.
I don't think Freddie gives off that vibe in the least and I don't believe the players respect him.
I was a Williams guy myself, Tour. I thought he did a nice job in the interim and I thoroughly enjoyed his take on accountability. A lot of people weren't fans because of Bountygate, which is understandable, but I wanted to see how what he could do with this young team of personalities. I thought he brought a good mesh of in your face "fuck you" antics and preaching perfection in even the smallest actions.
As a matter of fact, the guy I wanted the least was Kitchens.
Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point. Kitchens looks in over his head, plain and simple. And he's seemingly lost a portion of the locker room, which is an even bigger concern. Once that fissure starts to form, there's not enough spackle in the world to patch it up.
I remember many years of posting "we're just building up to go on a run, we're just waiting for that window" on this very board.
Well, this is finally it. This is that window. We've got two years before we need to start really locking up the core of this team to big contracts. We can't waste it hoping that Freddie figures it out.
Good talent can't overcome bad coaching.
Plus +100 ?..Good to see ya back around...Bountygate never bothered me...Last years, at Baltimore defensive game plan with his son did.. Bonus thought? What's your take on Kevin Stefanski? I would not mind keeping former Viking ST coach Mike Priefer on staff..Behind Stefanski is Gary Kubiak coaching with his son now on Zimmer's staff. Zim has got to be setting up for Stefanski out the door soon?
Browns & Buffett: Got to go fishin, Down to rock bottom again, with just a few Friends -
Wow... I did know all those players yelled at coaches...
... but thanks for playing our game.
Sorry Tour2ma, I wasn't clear. I was just rattling off players who had issues stemming from a lack of discipline, not saying they were all yelling at coaches. Only OBJ and Landry were doing that. I think you know what whitehead and Garrett did and for some reason the coach can't properly manage Randle, Higgins and Njoku.
Sorry Tour2ma, I wasn't clear. I was just rattling off players who had issues stemming from a lack of discipline, not saying they were all yelling at coaches. Only OBJ and Landry were doing that. I think you know what whitehead and Garrett did and for some reason the coach can't properly manage Randle, Higgins and Njoku.
Pretty sure I knew that... was just funnin'... Thanks for not taking offense.
I don't ascribe one-offs like Garrett to his HC. Same for social media idiocy. There's a line where it falls to self-control. No one blamed Andy Reid for Hunt's assault of a female.
As for managing players (by which I assume you mean how they are or are not being used) I am not sure where that falls on the Offense's side since we have an OC, but clearly it's own the DC for that side of the ball. All we.. or at least I... really know about Freddie on the O-side is that he calls the plays come gameday.
Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.
Not sure Freddie did all that. In my experience marriage does at least the weight gain part. His look... sure... if there's one thing Freddie ain't.... it's dapper.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Sorry Tour2ma, I wasn't clear. I was just rattling off players who had issues stemming from a lack of discipline, not saying they were all yelling at coaches. Only OBJ and Landry were doing that. I think you know what whitehead and Garrett did and for some reason the coach can't properly manage Randle, Higgins and Njoku.
Pretty sure I knew that... was just funnin'... Thanks for not taking offense.
I don't ascribe one-offs like Garrett to his HC. Same for social media idiocy. There's a line where it falls to self-control. No one blamed Andy Reid for Hunt's assault of a female.
As for managing players (by which I assume you mean how they are or are not being used) I am not sure where that falls on the Offense's side since we have an OC, but clearly it's own the DC for that side of the ball. All we.. or at least I... really know about Freddie on the O-side is that he calls the plays come gameday.
Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.
Not sure Freddie did all that. In my experience marriage does at least the weight gain part. His look... sure... if there's one thing Freddie ain't.... it's dapper.
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Meanwhile... first article proclaiming this that I've seen.
Cleveland Browns: Freddie Kitchens has officially lost the team
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I mean really? Fredie Kitchens is a blob. I mean even his demeanor is down? Play calling my ass and fire Wilks too.
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I have to say that if Freddie is still the coach 3 days after the season finale, then it's going to be a very "whatever" off season for me, no matter how many talking heads say that we won the draft again.
If Freddie is gone though, then hope will spring eternal and anything will be possible.......... until it's not.
That's about week 9 for us, right?
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I have to say that if Freddie is still the coach 3 days after the season finale, then it's going to be a very "whatever" off season for me, no matter how many talking heads say that we won the draft again.
If Freddie is gone though, then hope will spring eternal and anything will be possible.......... until it's not.
That's about week 9 for us, right?
I have to say that if Freddie is still the coach 3 days after the season finale, then it's going to be a very "whatever" off season for me, no matter how many talking heads say that we won the draft again.
If Freddie is gone though, then hope will spring eternal and anything will be possible.......... until it's not.
That's about week 9 for us, right?
Well I mean we took a gamble at Kitchens? He has a resume but???? Ya and as the situation with Wilks...he should be able to stop a run much less a nosebleed.
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True enough, but there weren't all that many of us pulling for Williams either IIRC...
I do agree that if Freddie loses a chunk of the locker room, then that's the death knell...
Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.
Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.
Oi! What a thought. You would never know from looking at Freddie that he was once a slim, agile QB for the Alabama Crimson Tide. You would have thought that he was a nose tackle.
The concept that Ferd's personal habits could be rubbing off on Baker are mind boggling.
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Scathing article on CBS Sports...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Scathing article on CBS Sports...
Yup Tour- looking more and more like- if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. Too far, too fast for Freddie.
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Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor? For which he has not yet had surgery? If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.
Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor? ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that. The talent is there for him for the most part.
Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch, and if the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings, he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him?
If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up.
Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery.
Remember when discipline was THE #1 criticism of Freddie and penalties were THE measure of discipline his critics pointed to?
Well fourteen games in let's look for any signs of progress...
- First seven games: 70 total - 38 Off - 24 Def - 7 ST - (1 ???)
- Last seven games: 41 total - 16 Off - 20 Def - 5 ST
The improvement on the Offensive side of the ball... the side Freddie is most directly responsible for IIRC... is essentially responsible for the team's improvement.
While the actual 111 total lands us a spot at 3rd most in the league, a total of 82, double the second half of the season to date lands us in a tie for 4th fewest.
One other note... in the age of "block in the back" racking up only 12 ST penalties, less than one per game, strikes me as pretty remarkable.
and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
... and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
Not on its own, h, but not having to "overcome" penalties doesn't hurt...
Regardless... the point is that penalty count was a popular measure of discipline early in this season and lately it has not been a problem.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
... and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.
Not on its own, h, but not having to "overcome" penalties doesn't hurt...
Regardless... the point is that penalty count was a popular measure of discipline early in this season and lately it has not been a problem.
Not on its own, h, but not having to "overcome" penalties doesn't hurt...
Regardless... the point is that penalty count was a popular measure of discipline early in this season and lately it has not been a problem.
That because he doesn't "teach" penalties.
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IMO there's more than one way to skin a cat. Could be a more stoic disciplinarian, could be a soft-spoken guy, could be an asshole, could be a player's coach - doesn't necessarily matter. My personal belief is that, at this level, discipline comes from respect and respect is earned through showing you know your shit.
I don't think Freddie gives off that vibe in the least and I don't believe the players respect him.
I was a Williams guy myself, Tour. I thought he did a nice job in the interim and I thoroughly enjoyed his take on accountability. A lot of people weren't fans because of Bountygate, which is understandable, but I wanted to see how what he could do with this young team of personalities. I thought he brought a good mesh of in your face "fuck you" antics and preaching perfection in even the smallest actions.
As a matter of fact, the guy I wanted the least was Kitchens.
Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point. Kitchens looks in over his head, plain and simple. And he's seemingly lost a portion of the locker room, which is an even bigger concern. Once that fissure starts to form, there's not enough spackle in the world to patch it up.
I remember many years of posting "we're just building up to go on a run, we're just waiting for that window" on this very board.
Well, this is finally it. This is that window. We've got two years before we need to start really locking up the core of this team to big contracts. We can't waste it hoping that Freddie figures it out.
Good talent can't overcome bad coaching.
Plus +100 ?..Good to see ya back around...Bountygate never bothered me...Last years, at Baltimore defensive game plan with his son did.. Bonus thought? What's your take on Kevin Stefanski? I would not mind keeping former Viking ST coach Mike Priefer on staff..Behind Stefanski is Gary Kubiak coaching with his son now on Zimmer's staff. Zim has got to be setting up for Stefanski out the door soon?
Plus +100 ?..Good to see ya back around...Bountygate never bothered me...Last years, at Baltimore defensive game plan with his son did.. Bonus thought? What's your take on Kevin Stefanski? I would not mind keeping former Viking ST coach Mike Priefer on staff..Behind Stefanski is Gary Kubiak coaching with his son now on Zimmer's staff. Zim has got to be setting up for Stefanski out the door soon?
I like Stefanski and I thought he was interesting. Of the "new" guys we interviewed, I wanted him more than Flores, Campbell or Eberflus. But to be honest, I wasn't really excited for most of the guys we interviewed.
Of all possibilities, my personal preferences (in order) were:
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1) Hire Arians, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Arians)
- Arians wanted to be here, has experience with young QBs and a good body of work, established a good culture and relationships
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2) Keep Williams, keep Freddie at OC
- Williams deserved the opportunity, most of the players respected him and did their jobs, preached accountability and a focus on the little things
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3) Hire Eric Bienemy as HC, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Bienemy)
- Detail-oriented offensive mind, former player, from a winning culture, very adaptive playcaller, specialty with runningbacks
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4) Hire Matt Campbell, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Campbell)
- Campbell is a good culture builder and seems to be adept at turning losing programs into winners, though he has zero NFL experience
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5) Hire Stefanski as HC, keep Freddie at OC.
- From a basketball family, dad was an NBA GM so he gets the business aspect of it, players like him and he preaches adapting the philosophy to the players
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6) Hire Brian Flores, keep Freddie as OC.
- Experience in a winning culture, no-nonsense guy, outside the box hire
All of my preferences involved keeping Freddie at OC. He couldn't take an interview for a lateral move and it was highly unlikely anyone offered him the HC job last offseason, so it's either he stays with us for another year and adds to his resume or he quits. Either one of those options was preferable to me compared to making him HC.
This year, if we do in fact decide to go in a different direction, I would hope Riley, Bienemy and Rivera are at the top of our list. All three of those guys are known for being detail-oriented and you'd be hard pressed to find a player who speaks ill of any of them. Those are the qualities I think are most important in a head coach - the ability to garner/maintain respect and a focus on the little things.
They are definitely preparing for Stefanski's departure but I'm not sure if it's this offseason or the next one. At most there will be like 7 HC vacancies in 2020 (WAS, CAR, NYJ, NYG, DAL, CLE, ATL, LAC), you have to think Rivera, McCarthy, Bienemy, and Roman are all going to definitely get hired as HC's next year.
My guess? If CAR doesn't hire Greg Roman as HC, they'll bring in Stefanski. He's a good fit for David Tepper, who's a decently big analytics guy.
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1) Hire Arians, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Arians)
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Here are my two cents for what it worth....Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.
The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.
The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.
Have you ever hung with anyone who is too into sitting around a campire, like it is some amazing activity? Me? That was OK in high school (because it allowed us to drink and stay out all night) but by the time I got to college I preferred partying inside, without all the damn smoke covering every inch of your body. I also leaned the benefit of having girls around instead of a sausage party at a campfire. Freddie is that guy who overvalues sitting around a campfire, so he can spin his yarns of yore, with his good ole southern boy charm. That's the head coach. Not cutting it. Unevolved. Too simple. "I always try to tell the truth, I thought everyone did."
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I've been a Freddie supporter...but......things bug me....
Njoku. 1st round pick. Had shown flashes of athleticism and a red zone target in the past. Not even active when healthy.
Higgins. A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands. Never gets in the game...if he's even active.
Randall. One of our better DB's held out of the biggest game of the season, in Pittsburgh. Long pass plays killed us that day.
I mean, it's bad enough that we've got weapons like Garrett and Vernon that can't play.....without removing HEALTHY weapons. It seems like a lotta guys wind up on Freddy's shit list. Can he get along with ANYONE other than Baker and Nick Chubb? (we know that Landry wasn't overly happy with him during the Card's game)
Obviously, Freddie made some bad on field calls, like taking a 5 yard penalty to go for it on 4th and 15. The 4th & 9 draw play.
The whole T-shirt thing. Meaningless as far as football goes, but as far as decision making goes....."Yup, let's go out in public wearing THIS shirt." As a face of the Browns organization.
"If you don't wear brown & orange.....". Finally, after Baker called out the training staff, SOMEBODY got to him and told him to walk that back. But SOMEBODY should've been in Baker's ear about acting more professional long before.
....these things add up and bug me.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
I've been a Freddie supporter...but......things bug me....
Njoku. 1st round pick. Had shown flashes of athleticism and a red zone target in the past. Not even active when healthy.
Higgins. A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands. Never gets in the game...if he's even active.
Randall. One of our better DB's held out of the biggest game of the season, in Pittsburgh. Long pass plays killed us that day.
I mean, it's bad enough that we've got weapons like Garrett and Vernon that can't play.....without removing HEALTHY weapons. It seems like a lotta guys wind up on Freddy's shit list. Can he get along with ANYONE other than Baker and Nick Chubb? (we know that Landry wasn't overly happy with him during the Card's game)
Obviously, Freddie made some bad on field calls, like taking a 5 yard penalty to go for it on 4th and 15. The 4th & 9 draw play.
The whole T-shirt thing. Meaningless as far as football goes, but as far as decision making goes....."Yup, let's go out in public wearing THIS shirt." As a face of the Browns organization.
"If you don't wear brown & orange.....". Finally, after Baker called out the training staff, SOMEBODY got to him and told him to walk that back. But SOMEBODY should've been in Baker's ear about acting more professional long before.
....these things add up and bug me.
Njoku. 1st round pick. Had shown flashes of athleticism and a red zone target in the past. Not even active when healthy.
Higgins. A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands. Never gets in the game...if he's even active.
Randall. One of our better DB's held out of the biggest game of the season, in Pittsburgh. Long pass plays killed us that day.
Njoku I can see holding him out because he may not be in game shape and we're not making the playoffs why rush him. Plus If he's active less than 6 games it doesn't count as a season accrued I believe.
Higgins - I've got no clue
Randall - he violated a rule and got punished. People can't complain of discipline then complain when he disciplined a player because it was a big game. That would just show the team if you're good enough and it's a good opponent you can do whatever you please.
Edit looked up accrued season it is 6 games but being on the injured reserve still counts so it will count as a season on njoku contract but I still see not rushing him back just to go 8-8
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