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Kitchens fate?

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  • OrionO Orion

    I've been a Freddie supporter...but......things bug me....

    Njoku.   1st round pick.  Had shown flashes of athleticism and a red zone target in the past.  Not even active when healthy.    

    Higgins.  A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands.  Never gets in the game...if he's even active.

    Randall.  One of our better DB's held out of the biggest game of the season, in Pittsburgh.  Long pass plays killed us that day.

    I mean, it's bad enough that we've got weapons like Garrett and Vernon that can't play.....without removing HEALTHY weapons.  It seems like a lotta guys wind up on Freddy's shit list.  Can he get along with ANYONE other than Baker and Nick Chubb?  (we know that Landry wasn't overly happy with him during the Card's game)

    Obviously, Freddie made some bad on field calls, like taking a 5 yard penalty to go for it on 4th and 15.  The 4th & 9 draw play.  

    The whole T-shirt thing.  Meaningless as far as football goes, but as far as decision making goes....."Yup, let's go out in public wearing THIS shirt."  As a face of the Browns organization.

      "If  you don't wear brown & orange.....". Finally, after Baker called out the training staff, SOMEBODY got to him and told him to walk that back.  But SOMEBODY should've been in Baker's ear about acting more professional long before.

    ....these things add up and bug me.

    @orion said:

    Higgins.  A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands.  Never gets in the game...if he's even active.

    Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

    "When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
  • Tour2maT Tour2ma

    @orion said:

    Higgins.  A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands.  Never gets in the game...if he's even active.

    Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

    @tour2ma said:

    Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

    To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

    The GipperT ballpeenB 2 Replies
  • bjh2130B bjh2130

    @tour2ma said:

    Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

    To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

    @bjh2130 said:

    To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

    I think it is just more evidence of Ferd's misuse of his personnel. 

  • M MDDawg

    @calfoxwc said:

    I don't know about Freddie being out. But I think that Freddie needs to give up the play calling - and fix it.

    My concern is that other teams have said they knew a lot of the plays the Browns were going to run. That means what?

    The first year simple schemes were studied and toast this year, and after they implemented a more complex offense scheme, it still is easy to read tendencies by lineups?

    or, watching film, defenses have figured Freddie out on his strong tendencies in calling plays.

        for the first time - the arizona game was a giant rotten egg laid at Freddie's doorstep.

    Really, we were embarassed by the JV version of the Ravens last week and you think we'll beat the real deal? Freddie was hired for his "offensive genius". By every benchmark the offense is worse (since he no longer has Haley's playbook?) compounded by being outcoached, team indiscipline etc. Even the Haslams shouldn't give him another year.

    @mddawg said:

    Really, we were embarassed by the JV version of the Ravens last week and you think we'll beat the real deal? Freddie was hired for his "offensive genius". By every benchmark the offense is worse (since he no longer has Haley's playbook?) compounded by being outcoached, team indiscipline etc. Even the Haslams shouldn't give him another year.

    Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

    "You see the Rams are still thinking that they are playing Tony Dorsett" -Jim Brown 1978
    The GipperT 1 Reply
  • bjh2130B bjh2130

    @orion said:

    Yes we can.

    Fine him and don't start him.   But don't leave him home and tell him to go bowling.  That was the Steelers man!  Don't you understand.....WE'RE PLAYING MICHIGAN!!!

    Then you're sending a message that if you're good enough and the game matters enough you can get away with breaking team rules.  What if a player earlier in the year had done the same thing and been told to stay home.  You start causing division in the team.  It sends the wrong message to the team. If you don't complain about the overall discipline of the team for the season then I can see someone not liking randall being suspended. Otherwise i just think it's hypocrisy.

    Edit speaking of the Ohio state Michigan correlation it was floating around out there that Shaun Wade was going to be suspended early in the week of the game. Before it came out he was "injured". They never said what he was injured for and was dressed for the game. Didn't miss a beat and came back the next week.  

    @bjh2130 said:

    Then you're sending a message that if you're good enough and the game matters enough you can get away with breaking team rules.  What if a player earlier in the year had done the same thing and been told to stay home.  You start causing division in the team.  It sends the wrong message to the team. If you don't complain about the overall discipline of the team for the season then I can see someone not liking randall being suspended. Otherwise i just think it's hypocrisy.

    I said a few times right after that incident that everyone always wants a badass head coach who doesn't take shit from his players until a head coach does just that... then they get all "Well, uh, yeah, BUT NOT NOW!"

    👍
  • RichiswhereR Richiswhere

    @mddawg said:

    Really, we were embarassed by the JV version of the Ravens last week and you think we'll beat the real deal? Freddie was hired for his "offensive genius". By every benchmark the offense is worse (since he no longer has Haley's playbook?) compounded by being outcoached, team indiscipline etc. Even the Haslams shouldn't give him another year.

    Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

    @richiswhere said:

    Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

    Doesn't the owner have the last say so?

    I mean, I know that a GM is going to want to justify and defend his choice.....but....wtf.

  • The GipperT The Gipper

    @mddawg said:

    So looks like Freddie will be out, he's been given the impossible task of beating Baltimore this week to keep his job per Daryl Ruiter's report today.

    Well....that could put a lot of us in a real dilemma.   No matter what, even if it seems to be contrary to the team's long term interests,  I want the team to win.   But, if you say that this game would decide if Freddie stays or goes.....it gives me a quandary.    I do not think that Ferd will really ever be  quality HC in this league.....unless he learns  a lot in the next 5 years.  So I do think that in the team's long term interests it is best that he not be the HC here.  

    But, I can never deep down bring myself to root against them.

    @the-gipper said:

    Well....that could put a lot of us in a real dilemma.   No matter what, even if it seems to be contrary to the team's long term interests,  I want the team to win.   But, if you say that this game would decide if Freddie stays or goes.....it gives me a quandary.    I do not think that Ferd will really ever be  quality HC in this league.....unless he learns  a lot in the next 5 years.  So I do think that in the team's long term interests it is best that he not be the HC here.  

    But, I can never deep down bring myself to root against them.

    I can't either, but to borrow a line from Jimmy Carter's campaign-- In your heart, you know we're gonna lose.   

    @the-gipper said:

    I think it is just more evidence of Ferd's misuse of his personnel. 

    That IMHO Gipper will be the nail in Freddie's coffin. 

    @richiswhere said:

    Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

    As Dorsey probably would. Problem is- should the Browns get blown out by the Ravens, and then lay an egg against the Bengals the following week- John Boy is going to have a big PR problem hanging on to a coach that 1\2 the National media have been saying all year was a big mistake over his head first time HC.  

    Dutch OvenD 1 Reply

  • I was a huge fan of hiring Freddie, but I have learned that a Team this young & a rookie Head Coach (rookie HC at ANY level, much less NFL) can be a recipe for disaster.

    We need to utilize &  LEAD the talent we acquired before we ALIENATE it. 

    Mike

    IN DORSEY I TRUST
    👍

  • So if we were to finish with a 5-1 division record....... does he stay or does he go?

     I say stay. 

  • bjh2130B bjh2130

    @tour2ma said:

    Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

    To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

    @bjh2130 said:

    To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

    It is because of Dorsey.  Freddie know Dorsey likes "his" players.  Freddie has no pushback, which is what Dorsey wanted in his head coach...why do you think he hired Kitchens and not Williams?  So we fire Freddie, who's next, Casper Milquetoast, the man who speaks softly and gets hit with a big stick?

    If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
    😢
  • hoortaH hoorta

    @the-gipper said:

    Well....that could put a lot of us in a real dilemma.   No matter what, even if it seems to be contrary to the team's long term interests,  I want the team to win.   But, if you say that this game would decide if Freddie stays or goes.....it gives me a quandary.    I do not think that Ferd will really ever be  quality HC in this league.....unless he learns  a lot in the next 5 years.  So I do think that in the team's long term interests it is best that he not be the HC here.  

    But, I can never deep down bring myself to root against them.

    I can't either, but to borrow a line from Jimmy Carter's campaign-- In your heart, you know we're gonna lose.   

    @the-gipper said:

    I think it is just more evidence of Ferd's misuse of his personnel. 

    That IMHO Gipper will be the nail in Freddie's coffin. 

    @richiswhere said:

    Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

    As Dorsey probably would. Problem is- should the Browns get blown out by the Ravens, and then lay an egg against the Bengals the following week- John Boy is going to have a big PR problem hanging on to a coach that 1\2 the National media have been saying all year was a big mistake over his head first time HC.  

    @hoorta said:

    As Dorsey probably would. Problem is- should the Browns get blown out by the Ravens, and then lay an egg against the Bengals the following week- John Boy is going to have a big PR problem hanging on to a coach that 1\2 the National media have been saying all year was a big mistake over his head first time HC.  

    Bingo. A few weeks ago it appeared that the Browns would end up 8-8, which is (slightly) better than the 7-8-1 of last season, and there would be those divisional wins vs Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cincinnati. 

    If the Browns finish 6-10? Along with all the shenanigans that occurred during this season? Man, that's a tough sell for Dorsey. Literally the only argument for Kitchens at that point would be "you really don't want to fire a head coach AGAIN after one season."

    T 1 Reply
    👍

  • This year we watched the Kitchens sink.....

    Hope has two beautiful daughters: Their names are Anger and Courage. Anger that things are the way they are. Courage to make them the way they ought to be. - St. Augustine. Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their vision. - Ayn Rand
    😂
  • mohicanM mohican

    This year we watched the Kitchens sink.....

    @mohican said:

    This year we watched the Kitchens sink.....

    We also watched the Kitchens stink...

    😂
  • Dutch OvenD Dutch Oven

    @hoorta said:

    As Dorsey probably would. Problem is- should the Browns get blown out by the Ravens, and then lay an egg against the Bengals the following week- John Boy is going to have a big PR problem hanging on to a coach that 1\2 the National media have been saying all year was a big mistake over his head first time HC.  

    Bingo. A few weeks ago it appeared that the Browns would end up 8-8, which is (slightly) better than the 7-8-1 of last season, and there would be those divisional wins vs Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cincinnati. 

    If the Browns finish 6-10? Along with all the shenanigans that occurred during this season? Man, that's a tough sell for Dorsey. Literally the only argument for Kitchens at that point would be "you really don't want to fire a head coach AGAIN after one season."

    @dutch-oven said:

     Literally the only argument for Kitchens at that point would be "you really don't want to fire a head coach AGAIN after one season."

    "Tradition!"-Fiddler on the Roof?

  • Kitchens' fate seems to be diabetes. Probably a heart attack incoming at some point, too. 

    Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind...
  • T The Cysko Kid

    Kitchens' fate seems to be diabetes. Probably a heart attack incoming at some point, too. 

    @the-cysko-kid said:

    Kitchens' fate seems to be diabetes. Probably a heart attack incoming at some point, too. 

    Unfortunately, he's already had a massive heart attack.  He actually should've died, but he somehow survived.  He's literally a walking miracle.  He should be doing ANYTHING but coaching right now to extend his life, but I guess it's his call.

    The GipperT ballpeenB 2 Replies
    👍
  • jiggins7919J jiggins7919

    @the-cysko-kid said:

    Kitchens' fate seems to be diabetes. Probably a heart attack incoming at some point, too. 

    Unfortunately, he's already had a massive heart attack.  He actually should've died, but he somehow survived.  He's literally a walking miracle.  He should be doing ANYTHING but coaching right now to extend his life, but I guess it's his call.

    @jiggins7919 said:

    Unfortunately, he's already had a massive heart attack.  He actually should've died, but he somehow survived.  He's literally a walking miracle.  He should be doing ANYTHING but coaching right now to extend his life, but I guess it's his call.

    Is this true?  I am not sure I have heard about that. 

    👍
  • The GipperT The Gipper

    @jiggins7919 said:

    Unfortunately, he's already had a massive heart attack.  He actually should've died, but he somehow survived.  He's literally a walking miracle.  He should be doing ANYTHING but coaching right now to extend his life, but I guess it's his call.

    Is this true?  I am not sure I have heard about that. 

    @the-gipper said:

    Is this true?  I am not sure I have heard about that. 

    Oh, very true.  There's a good Youtube video about it.  The man should've died while working with the Cards.  He basically blew out a heart valve before practice and had to go through like 10 hours of surgery or something crazy like that.  He got a new valve from a pig and apparently he's doing better.  But he's a miracle walking.

    I think this link is the one I'm thinking of, but not totally sure.

  • Well then, we should relieve him of the stress of an NFL HC job.

  • B BaconHound

    I'm lukewarm on Freddie at this point.  Unlike others I don't have a ton of problems with his play calling.  Team discipline on the other hand seems to be lacking.  Again, it seems that a lot fans in here continue to hold coaches more responsible than GMs and forgive players almost entirely.  The issues I see.

    Baker Mayfield - he hasn't been good.  Not sure about blaming the play calling when he misses guys that are open, doesn't trust throwing guys open, holds the ball to long on certain routes and has consistently missed high.

    Offensive Line - Screw John Dorsey.  For a GM to believe this cast of characters would be good enough to compete for a playoff spot is an indictment on that GM.

    OBJ Trade - Screw Dorsey again.  Weakened the OL for a guy who appears to be overrated.  OBJs hands have been average at best, doesn't seem to separate as well as one would hope and is still a distraction (watch, visor, does he want to be here)

    Secondary - Screw Dorsey once again.  Ward has been good but not to the level of the #4 pick, Williams is awful, Randall is very inconsistent and what's with all the hamstring issues?  Losing Peppers hurt us in the run game so another thanks Dorsey

    Attitude - Team is not focused and lacks leadership.  Baker, Landry, Garrett, Ward, OBJ, etc. are not leaders.  Chubb who is clearly 110% of what Cleveland is about and needs, is a quiet guy and doesn't seem like the guiding force.  Freddie doesn't seem capable in this area either.  

    @baconhound said:

    I'm lukewarm on Freddie at this point.  Unlike others I don't have a ton of problems with his play calling.  Team discipline on the other hand seems to be lacking.  Again, it seems that a lot fans in here continue to hold coaches more responsible than GMs and forgive players almost entirely.  The issues I see.

    Baker Mayfield - he hasn't been good.  Not sure about blaming the play calling when he misses guys that are open, doesn't trust throwing guys open, holds the ball to long on certain routes and has consistently missed high.

    Offensive Line - Screw John Dorsey.  For a GM to believe this cast of characters would be good enough to compete for a playoff spot is an indictment on that GM.

    OBJ Trade - Screw Dorsey again.  Weakened the OL for a guy who appears to be overrated.  OBJs hands have been average at best, doesn't seem to separate as well as one would hope and is still a distraction (watch, visor, does he want to be here)

    Secondary - Screw Dorsey once again.  Ward has been good but not to the level of the #4 pick, Williams is awful, Randall is very inconsistent and what's with all the hamstring issues?  Losing Peppers hurt us in the run game so another thanks Dorsey

    Attitude - Team is not focused and lacks leadership.  Baker, Landry, Garrett, Ward, OBJ, etc. are not leaders.  Chubb who is clearly 110% of what Cleveland is about and needs, is a quiet guy and doesn't seem like the guiding force.  Freddie doesn't seem capable in this area either.  

    @baconhound said:

    I'm lukewarm on Freddie at this point.  Unlike others I don't have a ton of problems with his play calling.  Team discipline on the other hand seems to be lacking.  Again, it seems that a lot fans in here continue to hold coaches more responsible than GMs and forgive players almost entirely.  The issues I see.

    Baker Mayfield - he hasn't been good.  Not sure about blaming the play calling when he misses guys that are open, doesn't trust throwing guys open, holds the ball to long on certain routes and has consistently missed high.

    Offensive Line - Screw John Dorsey.  For a GM to believe this cast of characters would be good enough to compete for a playoff spot is an indictment on that GM.

    OBJ Trade - Screw Dorsey again.  Weakened the OL for a guy who appears to be overrated.  OBJs hands have been average at best, doesn't seem to separate as well as one would hope and is still a distraction (watch, visor, does he want to be here)

    Secondary - Screw Dorsey once again.  Ward has been good but not to the level of the #4 pick, Williams is awful, Randall is very inconsistent and what's with all the hamstring issues?  Losing Peppers hurt us in the run game so another thanks Dorsey

    Attitude - Team is not focused and lacks leadership.  Baker, Landry, Garrett, Ward, OBJ, etc. are not leaders.  Chubb who is clearly 110% of what Cleveland is about and needs, is a quiet guy and doesn't seem like the guiding force.  Freddie doesn't seem capable in this area either.  

    i like all your point, but i do believe freddy is not an nfl coach....and all his playcalling is not that good. or his clock mgmt....he lost the game vs. the ravens yesterday with his clock mgmt in the first half...he totally lost that game...and there were others during the season also...he's no good...yeah, as you say, baker was not good either...i wanted to see wentz quarterbacking this team....the guy is a leader....we have zilcho leadership and dorsey, if you look at it...sucks...

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