The 'Who you watching?' 2020 thread.

Tour2ma

@gumby73 said:

Are you a fan of Paul Alexander? He's a so-called OL guru, that has been on the field at NFL radio all senior bowl practice week with the linemen.. Paul only see's 2 legit LT's in this draft.. #1 Thomas #2 Josh Jones... On Jones, Paul loves his quiet quick feet but loves the loud thuds even more with Jones's hands...Have you seen any of this watching any Houston games?

Don't know Alexander...

Did see Jones a couple times in UH games. Very athletic run blocker, but very hard to judge any OL's PassPro potential based on the Coug's passing attack. That said... I think the guy is an intriguing prospect, but I'd have a long way to go to deem him worthy of the #10.

gumby73

@tiamat63 said:

Got a text from a friend of mine about this very kid around 3pm. So this is the 2nd time I've seen him name dropped today.

That good, eh?

I seriously can't wait till the combine when 6'2 220 hits his 40 stride..it's going to catch some scouts by surprise..This cat has 6 TD's on Punt return .. No Punt returns in Senior Bowl? damm shame..As i watched this kid fight threw blocks busting up screens, I thought it was the comp level, but we shall see Saturday.. Physical enough to cover TE's too

Tour2ma

I was just reading PFF's Day 2 notes and had to share this...

The last guy from today worth mentioning is Tulsa edge Trevis Gipson. He’s got some silly Gumby-esque bend for a 6-foot-3, 259-pounder. Playing through contact comes easily for him. In an edge group that has a lot of guys with size concerns, Gipson looks like a prototype.

On another note a Buckeye who I thought was being under rated seems to be doing himself some good...

Ohio State OG Jonah Jackson

Jackson might be the only offensive lineman in attendance this week to not have a convincing loss in the one-on-ones. His independent hand usage has been nothing short of elite this week. The ability to latch and not let go is something that you love to see from an interior lineman. His build may not be the most impressive, but the tape is.

Tour2ma

And an interesting note or two from Day 1...

Former Saint John's offensive tackle Ben Bartch was a shock to many in the one-on-one drills. Weighing in at 6-foot-5, 308 pounds with 33-inch arms, Bartch is the only Division III player in attendance for the Senior Bowl, but he shined against Division I competition all day long. He logged strong reps in the one-on-ones against Alabama's Terrell Lewis and Florida edge defender Jabari Zuniga.

Top Performer

Troy Pride Jr. and K.J. Hill each had an impressive day to start the week of practices here in Mobile, but I'd be foolish if I didn' say Javon Kinlaw was the top performer. He could not participate in drills for the rest of the week and skip the game at this point. He's proved he's in a tier above this crop of prospects.

gumby73

@tour2ma said:

Tulsa edge Trevis Gipson. He’s got some silly Gumby-esque bend for a 6-foot-3, 259-pounder.

I could have been a star... wrecking this gumby imposter playing Gumby TE... for us measurement geeks https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/senior-bowl-weigh-in-results wingspans/hands/arms included

SdBacker80

@tiamat63 said:

Just watched KJ Hill's clips at the Senior Bowl.

Another Buckeye receiver flying under the radar....

He had a so so senior year. Caught everything first 3-4 years had some drops this past year. Great slot guy though and I think he has has an underrated burst. Not a guy I’d want in the first couple rounds though.

if I’m taking a Buckeye WR...it is Austin Mack. He actually cleaned up the hands issue this past year. Good route runner. Good speed. Made some tough 3rd down catches this year and he’s 6-7 round guy unless he runs a great number at the combine.

After this year...Give me Garrett Wilson though in 2 years and after that possibly 2-3 other Buckeye WR. Olave looks good too but I worry about him getting off press coverage at the next level. Tons of pass catchers coming down the pipeline for OSU.

Tour2ma

@gumby73 said:

for us measurement geeks https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/senior-bowl-weigh-in-results wingspans/hands/arms included

Nice... a few eye catchers...

Austin Mack, Ohio State WR | HT: 6011 | WT: 212 | HAND: 10 | ARM: 33 | WING: 79 ... tape says SdB may be onto something.
Stephen Sullivan, LSU TE| HT: 6060 | WT: 254 | HAND: 10 3/8 | ARM: 35 1/8 | WING: 85 1/8 ... take him as a TE, grow him to be an OT...
Josh Jones, Houston OT | HT: 6051 | WT: 311 | HAND: 10 1/8 | ARM: 33 5/8 | WING: 80 1/2 ... arms on short side for OT
Matt Peart, Connecticut OT | HT: 6064 | WT: 310 | HAND: 9 3/4 | ARM: 35 1/8 | WING: 86 1/8 ... nice dimensions, added to my scout list.
Terence Steele, Texas Tech OT| HT: 6062 | WT: 312 | HAND: 9 1/8 | ARM: 35 7/8 | WING: 85 1/8 ... ditto the above
Lloyd Cushenberry III, LSU C | HT: 6032 | WT: 312 | HAND: 10 1/2 | ARM: 34 5/8 | WING: 83 1/8 ... ditto again

D-side

Javon Kinlaw, South Carolina DT| HT: 6051 | WT: 315 | HAND: 10 1/8 | ARM: 34 5/8 | WING: 84 ... long DT; read where he was 340 when he transferred to SC and decided to trim down to get quicker.
Jason Strowbridge, North Carolina Edge | HT: 6042 | WT: 267 | HAND: 9 7/8 | ARM: 32 7/8 | WING: 80 1/4 ... one of only a couple Edge guys with Edge dimensions.
Zack Baun, Wisconsin LB | HT: 6024 | WT: 240 | HAND: 9 5/8 | ARM: 32 1/8 | WING: 78 1/2 ... Edge to LB... something about this kid...
Kyle Dugger, Lenoir-Rhyne Safety | HT: 6006 | WT: 217 | HAND: 10 1/8 | ARM 32 3/4 | WING: 78 ... 78" wing on a 6' kid? Color me curious...

The Gipper

The last guy from today worth mentioning is Tulsa edge Trevis Gipson. , Gipson looks like a prototype.

Another brother from another mother? Tashaun, Trevis....but THEY were not the prototypes when it came to T. Gipsons.

calfoxwc

@tiamat63 said:

Just watched KJ Hill's clips at the Senior Bowl.

Another Buckeye receiver flying under the radar....

not under my radar. I had him in my last mock draft, in the third round, I think.

calfoxwc

@gumby73 said:

I could have been a star... wrecking this gumby imposter playing Gumby TE... for us measurement geeks https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/senior-bowl-weigh-in-results wingspans/hands/arms included

Alex Taylor, South Carolina St. | HT: 6084 | WT: 308 | HAND: 11 | ARM: 36 1/8 | WING: 88

One of my favorite sleeper OTs.

gumby73

@calfoxwc said:

Alex Taylor, South Carolina St. | HT: 6084 | WT: 308 | HAND: 11 | ARM: 36 1/8 | WING: 88

One of my favorite sleeper OTs.

Same link, page 3.. size awards... Big Boy ^^ owns a size 18" foot size ?? ? Edit- ya can see why Joe Burrow had time to throw.. Checkout the wings(pans) across the LSU OL/TE's that Coach O put in front of him? Security Guard''ish

calfoxwc

@gumby73 said:

Same link, page 3.. size awards... Big Boy ^^ owns a size 18" foot size ?? ? Edit- ya can see why Joe Burrow had time to throw.. Checkout the wings(pans) across the LSU OL/TE's that Coach O put in front of him? Security Guard''ish

Stephen Sullivan - LSU - 85 1/8" wingspan. TE. geez. Let him grow to OT sounds like a great idea !

tiamat63

Wirfs vs Miss State

at :08 vs 4i/5shade. Not really much movement on the IZ in the way you would expect a classic "mauler" Wins inside, uses leverage and turns the Dline "out". Does this with better technique over power. Helps when facing a lighter Dline too.

at 1:42 - getting stacked and handled in run fits against a heads up 4tech. Miss State did this a few times in this game vs Tristan.

Overall - Wirfs handles power pure well enough. The bigger bodies don't usually give much trouble off the edge when you can't threaten the corner.
Because the main idea is at that point is anchoring yourself for the contact, especially on the TE stunts. But my primary concerns still remain...

- dealing with speed and width off the edge

- dealing with speed to power as well.

This is where I close my book on Wirfs.

The former of those two is my biggest problem given the Browns having a QB that sets in a deeper pocket than some other across the NFL. You have to be able to hold the edge reliably or you're just another Hubbard. I don't see the movement at the LOS on the edge that some are praising him for. While he doesn't lose that battle much, if at all, I can't imagine how that lack of mauler on the perimeter somehow magically emerges when kicked inside to guard. Couple that with the top half of his body sometimes leaving the stability triangle of having in-sync footwork and extending beyond the 'base' of his lower half when in square... where is the next Quinten Nelson he is made to be?

I can't say I'm overly impressed with anything I saw from this season. Couple that with appearing to have a "heavy" kick step at times that didn't look 2nd nature and hands that could use a little more "punch" to them, I just feel the Browns wouldn't be necessarily missing out on a franchise player. Sure, there is always room for development. But I also have to consider some of the things other prospects have shown performing at a similar level. Prospects who may not be as highly regarded, but when you begin to weigh the value of the pick vs the quality of player I might receive... one has to question why would I invest in Wirfs at 10 if I can get 90% of his production a round lower? (For lack of a better comparison)

I just can't endorse this kid to the Browns at 10 right now and probably not for the foreseeable future.

Tour2ma

On the bright side.... still early, but I'm warming to Andrew Thomas some... and the OG that plays next to him, Kindley, is looking promising to boot.

@tiamat63 said:

This is where I close my book on Wirfs.

FYI... DraftScout has Wirfs as their #1 OG.

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

On the bright side.... still early, but I'm warming to Andrew Thomas some... and the OG that plays next to him, Kindley, is looking promising to boot.

FYI... DraftScout has Wirfs as their #1 OG.

At least they see the same issues with his feet holding up on the edge.

I question the merit in having an OT who isn't a bulldozer as your #1 OG prospect. Is Wirfs so much better in pass pro on the interior than other prospects that they would rank him so high when being kicked inside? I'm just not so sure about that one and would have to disagree from a value to draft position ratio. We'll see how things shake out in April though.

I still don't see any new cutups of Bravvion Roy. So I'm probably going to have to watch full games and do the time stamp thing. I'm cool with that - it's just a tedious pain in the ass.

tiamat63

Well I found a cutup of James Lynch, DE, Baylor. Has Roy in a lot of the snaps, so that saves a bunch of time.

Lord Jesus... at 1:46. He was even getting contact from the lineman trying to seal the playside End. Still bulls his way through and into the backfield. He not only gets there, but the dude finishes. Eyes up, see the ball carrier. I love it.

At 2:48 is probably my favorite of this clip: Especially considering that, with the motion, Kstate has won the leverage game on the QB wrap. This should be a big gain. The weakside end is closed and takes himself so far upfield, that he has taken himself out of the play. Given the pull, the QB was to follow his lead through the A gap, but I can't blame him with all the green grass he saw to his right. Had that been the carry, Roy and the playside 3tech are out of the play. But the hands and disengage, plus the short area quickness makes this play. That's a big man with a quick first step, keeping his eyes up and taking a great angle.

At 3:09 - center never had a chance. Just gets walked back immediately.

At 3:20 - I'm convinced this was a flash trap from the lineman at the wing. That's a big boy out there and he's not looking down the end of the line to flash/kick out an edge rusher. He's coming inside looking for that nose. Probably why KState decided to use such a large man. Try that shit with a 240lb TE and he'll be crushed. The guard releases Roy and he is immediately looking for a 2nd level block. Bravvion just gets to the mesh point so quick for a big man that the trap doesn't have time to develop. And yet again, when he gets back there, he finishes at the ball carrier.

At 3:31 - arms, stacks and controls his man. Eyes up, finds the ball carrier and makes first contact.

It's just very clear when he isn't in the game the Baylor defense has to use their speed a little smarter. You'll see more stunts, twists, slants, etc etc to get into the backfield and disrupt rushing lanes when you don't have a 6'1 325 space eater on the interior.

Bravvion is the anti-thesis to how I see Tristan Wirfs. This kid should be getting more name recognition, but what he does isn't sexy enough for that. I'm sure the metrics and grades probably love this kid too. What I see on tape has to translate to high run stop percentage and pressure rates in PFF's book. Unless they're just high as shit when they're watching.

tiamat63

I'm fortunate enough to have some friends who put the time in to be the helpful kind of geeks. I was getting tired of using my work laptop for all manner of things and, couple that with giving my xbox to my nephew, threw a few of my tax return dollars at them to build me a new computer. Love it, especially how seamless it is going between both monitors. If you have the ability or friends with the ability to help you out in such a way - big thumbs up from me. Now I just need to find a game to play.

Anywho, they introduced me to discord - VOIP app. It's what they use to talk while playing. Also using it to chat with friends in a room when watching film. Yours truly is online this morning and I'll be starting on my film journey with Andrew Thomas (OT) and possibly mix in some Kyle Dugger (S) to break up the monotony. Should anyone want to setup a, I believe the kids call it - "watch party"....?

Tour2ma

Just spent a lil over an hour with Mr. Wirfs... watched parts of 2019 games vs. Miami (Ohio), Rutgers, Penn St., Iowa St., Nebraska and Michigan.Most of the tape was of him at RT, but there were a couple quarters of him at LT when the starting LT went down temporarily. I came away with a few impressions.

Tristan Wirfs - OT/OG - Iowa

The side he played mattered very little.
The athleticism he's flashed at the Combine is apparent in his tape, but he alternately under utilizes it and over relies upon it.
While never really challenged in PassPro it was the smaller players that consistently played better against him often catching him with a seemingly unexpected "punch" that would put him on his heels. Michigan's Josh Uche (LB) came close, but UM's Kwity Paye (DE) came closest to beating him. Josh lacked just enough speed and bend to clear Wirfs' reach and Kwity lacked just enough power to walk Wirf's all the way back.
Larger DEs were not an issue... Wirfs simply latched onto them and anchored them to a standstill. His "latch ons" are well placed inside. I did not see him flagged. I longed to see him up against a gifted edge player like Myles or Chase, but no such matchup was found.
While his feet are light he has zero kick-slide. He chops away from the line when he anticipates a wide rush. His feet are generally good enough to mirror a rusher who tries to get cute, but sometimes his top half lags and he ends up off balance.
His run blocking really disappointed. He was frequently unable to sustain drive blocks or get to ZBS cutoff blocks. Plus he tended to get lost in space. He'd pull nicely only to not see who needed to be hit or slide off a double-team only to miss at the 2nd level. Why the problem? I'm not sure, but he just seemed to be guessing where defenders would be based upon where the scout team opponent had been all week rather than reacting to the play in front of him and adjusting. However, as in PassPro, when he did latch onto a defender, then they were no longer a factor in the play.

Bottom Line: Wirfs is not going to play OT well as a Pro without developing a decent level of technique and his transition to OG is not a given. I would not risk our1st-round pick on him.

Tour2ma

Next up...

Josh Jones - OT - UH

Not a great deal of 2019 game film on Josh, but there is the Cougs full game vs OU and half of their game vs U of Cinci. The competition level, especially vs OU, was pretty decent.

Here are my thoughts...

Calm, cool and collected describes Josh's game. He simply always looks like he is on control of the situation. He acts like he is the better player... and he is. Unlike Wirfs he gets to assigned spots on runs and is ready for first player that comes his way. He looks on his way to the spot.
In PassPro he sets easily and quickly, but again calmly with no evidence of being rushed. Have to add that I saw more pass sets than I was expecting to see given UH's Air-Raid, passing attack due to Houston playing from behind.
Tech... well, again there is nearly a complete lack of refined footwork present, but Josh has one thing mastered that he made me aware was missing is my above work on Tristan Wirfs... PAD LEVEL. It's there all the time on Josh's game... It's there in PassPro. It's there during drive blocks. It's there on the move to the 2nd level. It's there on post in the 2nd level. It's there all the time.

Bottom Line: Josh Jones plays like the 4-year starter he is. He plays like he's seen it all before... probably because he has. If we were stuck at #10 overall, I now have to consider turning in his name to be an option based upon a higher than expected floor. His ceiling? Not sure it threatens Thomas'... might be close to Wills'... but in either case it's enough of a question to send me back for another look at my top 2's tape.

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

Next up...

Josh Jones - OT - UH

Not a great deal of 2019 game film on Josh, but there is the Cougs full game vs OU and half of their game vs U of Cinci. The competition level, especially vs OU, was pretty decent.

Here are my thoughts...

Calm, cool and collected describes Josh's game. He simply always looks like he is on control of the situation. He acts like he is the better player... and he is. Unlike Wirfs he gets to assigned spots on runs and is ready for first player that comes his way. He looks on his way to the spot.

In PassPro he sets easily and quickly, but again calmly with no evidence of being rushed. Have to add that I saw more pass sets than I was expecting to see given UH's Air-Raid, passing attack due to Houston playing from behind.

Tech... well, again there is nearly a complete lack of refined footwork present, but Josh has one thing mastered that he made me aware was missing is my above work on Tristan Wirfs... PAD LEVEL. It's there all the time on Josh's game... It's there in PassPro. It's there during drive blocks. It's there on the move to the 2nd level. It's there on post in the 2nd level. It's there all the time.

Bottom Line: Josh Jones plays like the 4-year starter he is. He plays like he's seen it all before... probably because he has. If we were stuck at #10 overall, I now have to consider turning in his name to be an option based upon a higher than expected floor. His ceiling? Not sure it threatens Thomas'... might be close to Wills'... but in either case it's enough of a question to send me back for another look at my top 2's tape.

I'm sitting here doing a write up for Josh and Dugger in Cal's thread and you're basically taking some of the words out of my mouth on Jonesy.

Also, appears we're pretty lock step on Wirfs and several others. You and I have been surprisingly agreeable on multiple top prospects this year. I... I'm not sure how comfortable I am with this.