Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland
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I'll add my two cents about First Energy here.
First about putting a dome on it. Can't and won't happen. Structurally wasn't built for one. Putting a bubble over it has already been suggested. Retrofitting it with the requisite HVAC would be a nightmare. If you want a dome, more efficient to start from scratch, and the going rate seems to be around $2 billion to go that route.
As to there being "nothing wrong" with it, I'll disagree. My Bucket List is to see the Browns play in every NFL venue, and I'm about 1\2 way there. When the stadium was built, the goal was to replicate the "feel" of the old place as closely as possible. Bad idea. The concourse behind the stands is woefully cramped (sardine city) compared to almost all of the other stadiums. Paul Brown in Cincinnati has at least triple if not four times the space. I was really hoping when Jimmy poured millions into the stadium renovation, he'd address the shortcomings, but it didn't happen. BTW, when planning for the stadium originally came out, the fan opinion was overwhelming "no dome".
FWIW, by my count, there's 15 teams with the potential of a cold weather game, and three domes. Tells me all I need to know. Apparently there's a lot of wimps afraid of getting their toes cold.
I think "if" most said no dome is because most people go on the cheap and don't think ahead. The city of Cleveland has already run the Browns out of town once because they were cheap.
Build the Dome. All new stadiums get a superbowl. That would pump hundreds of millions in to the local economy. It isn't about being a wimp. It about not being a dumbass.
Someone mentioned the Wolstein center....maybe we could build the Browns new stadium there. Maybe not. It would depends on the property footprint. Football stadiums need a larger footprint. You would also have to consider near by parking. If you get 30,000 to a baseball game, you might need parking for 17,000 cars or possibly less. For a football game with 65,000, you might need parking for 30,000 cars.
I think "if" most said no dome is because most people go on the cheap and don't think ahead. The city of Cleveland has already run the Browns out of town once because they were cheap.
Build the Dome. All new stadiums get a superbowl. That would pump hundreds of millions in to the local economy. It isn't about being a wimp. It about not being a dumbass.
Someone mentioned the Wolstein center....maybe we could build the Browns new stadium there. Maybe not. It would depends on the property footprint. Football stadiums need a larger footprint. You would also have to consider near by parking. If you get 30,000 to a baseball game, you might need parking for 17,000 cars or possibly less. For a football game with 65,000, you might need parking for 30,000 cars.
The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena. They don't draw that much.
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I think "if" most said no dome is because most people go on the cheap and don't think ahead. The city of Cleveland has already run the Browns out of town once because they were cheap.
Build the Dome. All new stadiums get a superbowl. That would pump hundreds of millions in to the local economy. It isn't about being a wimp. It about not being a dumbass.
Someone mentioned the Wolstein center....maybe we could build the Browns new stadium there. Maybe not. It would depends on the property footprint. Football stadiums need a larger footprint. You would also have to consider near by parking. If you get 30,000 to a baseball game, you might need parking for 17,000 cars or possibly less. For a football game with 65,000, you might need parking for 30,000 cars.
The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena. They don't draw that much.
The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena. They don't draw that much.
That's why, it is too big. No reason for CSU to have an arena that sits 13,000 or so people. Apparently there are rumors (?) that CSU would like to rid themselves of that arena.
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Totally agree we went on the cheap when First Energy was built. I probably wouldn't have any objections to a dome. But every time I bring up the question how are we going to dig up the $2 billion to pay for it? There's crickets chirping..
No chirping here. You have to raise taxes. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. That is why I would be more in favor of not doing anything with the Jake. Maybe a few upgrades or something like that. It is still useful. We wouldn't need 2 domed stadiums, and unlike football which is enjoyable
inside" baseball in domes sucks. So if the Wolstein property can handle the stadium and parking surge, that would be where to build the new stadium.So, how to pay?
First, I would bump the county room tax a few bucks a night on hotel stays. Make a lot of out of towners help pay for the thing.
Then, gas tax is always a money maker. A few cents there.
The property on the lakefront that is going to be developed. The county could designate it a way that all development pays a special 20 year tax for the stadium fund. After all, the stadium moving is what opened things up for the developers and business operations that will be flocking there.
Get all counties who border on Cuyahoga pay something. Boost room taxes and or gasoline tax. If they don't agree, boost parking rates on all parking lots by $5 a day. The county gives all county residents a special decal for their vehicle giving them a $5 a day discount on parking in county parking lots. Neighboring counties are crazy if they don't benefit. from the Browns. I spend about half my nights up there in Medina county. Usually a night or two in Vermilion...not sure of that county...Vermilion I guess.
There is probably some enhancement super fund run by the state. Boost some state wide tax by a penny and create millions more.
Lot's of people trek across Ohio on the turnpike. Increase big rig fees by $8 across the state from Pennsylvania to Indiana. Get some Steelers and Colts fans chipping in.
Oh,, then all the events at the new facility. Put a tax on everything but football. Got to save myself a buck or two somewhere...lol
We could probably come up with a special Dayton area tax...$2 a gallon or something like that.;)
No chirping here. You have to raise taxes. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. That is why I would be more in favor of not doing anything with the Jake. Maybe a few upgrades or something like that. It is still useful. We wouldn't need 2 domed stadiums, and unlike football which is enjoyable
inside" baseball in domes sucks. So if the Wolstein property can handle the stadium and parking surge, that would be where to build the new stadium.So, how to pay?
First, I would bump the county room tax a few bucks a night on hotel stays. Make a lot of out of towners help pay for the thing.
Then, gas tax is always a money maker. A few cents there.
The property on the lakefront that is going to be developed. The county could designate it a way that all development pays a special 20 year tax for the stadium fund. After all, the stadium moving is what opened things up for the developers and business operations that will be flocking there.
Get all counties who border on Cuyahoga pay something. Boost room taxes and or gasoline tax. If they don't agree, boost parking rates on all parking lots by $5 a day. The county gives all county residents a special decal for their vehicle giving them a $5 a day discount on parking in county parking lots. Neighboring counties are crazy if they don't benefit. from the Browns. I spend about half my nights up there in Medina county. Usually a night or two in Vermilion...not sure of that county...Vermilion I guess.
There is probably some enhancement super fund run by the state. Boost some state wide tax by a penny and create millions more.
Lot's of people trek across Ohio on the turnpike. Increase big rig fees by $8 across the state from Pennsylvania to Indiana. Get some Steelers and Colts fans chipping in.
Oh,, then all the events at the new facility. Put a tax on everything but football. Got to save myself a buck or two somewhere...lol
We could probably come up with a special Dayton area tax...$2 a gallon or something like that.;)
How many NFL stadiums have been built NOT using taxpayer funds? Several.
The Jerry Dome. Cowboys
Levi Stadium ...49ers
The Met Life Stadium....Jets/Giants
The new LA stadium....Rams/Chargers
Maybe some others. Not sure.
Jimmy is getting Billions from Warren Buffet. Maybe he can build his own dome with some of that money...if it is such a big deal for him.
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Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??
Fake News
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No chirping here. You have to raise taxes. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. That is why I would be more in favor of not doing anything with the Jake. Maybe a few upgrades or something like that. It is still useful. We wouldn't need 2 domed stadiums, and unlike football which is enjoyable
inside" baseball in domes sucks. So if the Wolstein property can handle the stadium and parking surge, that would be where to build the new stadium.So, how to pay?
First, I would bump the county room tax a few bucks a night on hotel stays. Make a lot of out of towners help pay for the thing.
Then, gas tax is always a money maker. A few cents there.
The property on the lakefront that is going to be developed. The county could designate it a way that all development pays a special 20 year tax for the stadium fund. After all, the stadium moving is what opened things up for the developers and business operations that will be flocking there.
Get all counties who border on Cuyahoga pay something. Boost room taxes and or gasoline tax. If they don't agree, boost parking rates on all parking lots by $5 a day. The county gives all county residents a special decal for their vehicle giving them a $5 a day discount on parking in county parking lots. Neighboring counties are crazy if they don't benefit. from the Browns. I spend about half my nights up there in Medina county. Usually a night or two in Vermilion...not sure of that county...Vermilion I guess.
There is probably some enhancement super fund run by the state. Boost some state wide tax by a penny and create millions more.
Lot's of people trek across Ohio on the turnpike. Increase big rig fees by $8 across the state from Pennsylvania to Indiana. Get some Steelers and Colts fans chipping in.
Oh,, then all the events at the new facility. Put a tax on everything but football. Got to save myself a buck or two somewhere...lol
We could probably come up with a special Dayton area tax...$2 a gallon or something like that.;)
How many NFL stadiums have been built NOT using taxpayer funds? Several.
The Jerry Dome. Cowboys
Levi Stadium ...49ers
The Met Life Stadium....Jets/Giants
The new LA stadium....Rams/Chargers
Maybe some others. Not sure.
Jimmy is getting Billions from Warren Buffet. Maybe he can build his own dome with some of that money...if it is such a big deal for him.
Jimmy is getting Billions from Warren Buffet. Maybe he can build his own dome with some of that money...if it is such a big deal for him.
Bingo. That's where I think it could be heading... Not tomorrow, but it wouldn't surprise me that this is in the making by the end of the decade.
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The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena. They don't draw that much.
That's why, it is too big. No reason for CSU to have an arena that sits 13,000 or so people. Apparently there are rumors (?) that CSU would like to rid themselves of that arena.
That's why, it is too big. No reason for CSU to have an arena that sits 13,000 or so people. Apparently there are rumors (?) that CSU would like to rid themselves of that arena.
Well, if they do that, they still have to have something to play in. Maybe...they build a big domed stadium.....and attached as a part of it they have a smaller basketball arena.
You know...how Public Hall has Music Hall attached to it. (where they literally share the same stage).
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That's why, it is too big. No reason for CSU to have an arena that sits 13,000 or so people. Apparently there are rumors (?) that CSU would like to rid themselves of that arena.
Well, if they do that, they still have to have something to play in. Maybe...they build a big domed stadium.....and attached as a part of it they have a smaller basketball arena.
You know...how Public Hall has Music Hall attached to it. (where they literally share the same stage).
Well, if they do that, they still have to have something to play in. Maybe...they build a big domed stadium.....and attached as a part of it they have a smaller basketball arena.
You know...how Public Hall has Music Hall attached to it. (where they literally share the same stage).
Maybe build a smaller arena that fits what they need on Euclid Avenue? That would be pretty cool, since the old Cleveland Arena was on Euclid around E. 37th St.
It seems like Euclid Avenue around CSU has been fixed up rather nicely in the last few years? (I think?)
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I prefer old school football at all times too!
I like where you are trying to go in this thread about the Lakefront in between all the bullshit you're getting. I grew up (as debatable as that is) in Western, NY. And Buffalo is as close as it gets to the type of City Cleveland is. They had the steel mills and they have a Lakefront. Since the year 2000, they have been upgrading the lakefront to get people to want to go there. People really like going there today; because of the reasons (plural) they added to do so.
Once upon a time, going to Cleveland and partying in the flats was a blast - especially for Browns fans visiting from out of town. Since that changed, I see some untapped opportunity on the lakefront.
Back to the retractable roof idea, if we had one during the Playoff Game Brian Sipe threw an INT vrs the Raiders - it would have changed everything about the way this franchise is perceived since the Superbowls started. Don Cockroft was missing 30 yard FGs into the wind in pre-game warm-ups to get an idea of how impactful the weather conditions were on that outcome. Today's game is even more dependent on the passing game than it was when we had an NFL MVP at QB. All of the rules dictating this have opened me up to the unthinkable idea of football under a roof in December and January might be the way to go. And when you're never winning at least half your games - good luck getting new millennials and females excited about getting off the couch for below zero wind chills....
You know Flug….old time football, was over in early December. Championships before Christmas.
I keep seeing people say that. My stock answer is if Football was meant to be played in cold crappy weather, why are all the college bowl games played in places like Pasadena, Miami, Tampa, Mobile, Dallas, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Tempe?
The answer is nobody would have gone if they were played in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Green Bay, Fargo.
The Fargo Bowl obviously never took off. The Sugar Bowl in New Orleans beat them out by a large margin.
You know Flug….old time football, was over in early December. Championships before Christmas.
I keep seeing people say that. My stock answer is if Football was meant to be played in cold crappy weather, why are all the college bowl games played in places like Pasadena, Miami, Tampa, Mobile, Dallas, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Tempe?
The answer is nobody would have gone if they were played in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Green Bay, Fargo.
College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow.
Karlis Missed -
Cleveland is the second most poorest major city in the US, and the idea is higher taxes??
I mentioned it- Cuyahoga County already has the "Sin" tax. Nickel-Dime higher taxes look just fine to dedicated Browns fans- but OTOH- I prefer to look at it this way, a quick Google search says the population of Northeast Ohio is around 4 million. You can bet at least 2 million of them have never been, or never will go to a Browns game. So they're going to say- why in the hell should we be the ones helping finance a stadium that we'll never set foot in?
The rumblings that the Haslam's want an upgrade seem to be there. They are flush with Pilot J Warren Buffet money, and if a new Browns stadium is built, I can't see them going with another open-air stadium, since the one they have now is 21 years old. It would have to be off the lakefront, since they would play at First Energy while the other stadium is built. Opening up more of the lakefront, while getting a domed stadium that would attract events to Cleveland seems like a win-win to me. I'm guessing if Gilbert is talking about this publicly - hypothetically or not - that he and the Haslams may have had some kind of discussions. (Not saying anything concrete, just that the idea has been floated with some of the cities big hitters)
Who knows if any of this will come to fruition, but it makes for interesting offseason fodder, doesn't it? Well, for most people, anyways.
Gipper already pointed it out- there's several NFL pleasure palaces that were owner financed. The latest being Kroenke out doing Jerry World in LA. FWIW there already was an unfounded rumor of Haslam and Gilbert getting together to build a dome somewhere in the Flats.
The planned obsolescence of NFL stadiums is crazy. On a private level- Let's build a million dollar house and tear it down 20 years later, so we can build a three million dollar house. Unless and until there's something more concrete about Haslam wanting new digs, it's all just speculation. Don't forget Jimmy already tossed tens of millions of his own money into First Energy Upgrades- so I have to wonder how interested he would be after putting all that cash into the stadium- just to walk away from it a few years later.
College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow.
But- there's that thar Pinstripe Bowl in NYC.
Potato Bowl in Boise too..... Of course, the number of College Bowl games is out of hand. Anyone remember the memorable Tropical Smoothie Bowl? Bad Boy Mowers? Cheeze It? Ten bucks to anyone who can name what city those Bowl games were in without looking.
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A domed stadium is objectively better for the city. We just need a plan to get to one
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Fake News
Third poorest?
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And at the end of the day that’s just a small part of the equation.
do city leaders see this as a need? Some will go on Political soapboxes denying the need for it and gaining votes for re-election on the issue (happened in San Diego)
will ownership pay the costs or some of the costs and what are there expectations? If the Haslems Or Dolans expect the city of Cleveland to cover 100% of the costs- its a much harder sell.
Your second part would be HUGE regarding the viability of this idea.
I said it before, I don't think Cleveland ever builds another Indians ballpark. I think that franchise's next ballpark will be in another city.
Your second part would be HUGE regarding the viability of this idea.
I said it before, I don't think Cleveland ever builds another Indians ballpark. I think that franchise's next ballpark will be in another city.
Could be. Attendance figures keep dropping. During the Thome, Lofton days we would pack in over 3 mil a season. Now it is nearing half of that at 1.7 mil. People can blame owners all they want, the team still needs support from the public. The greater Cleveland population is a tick above 2 million people. You have to toss out kids who can't go without parents taking them, and some old folks who can't get out. You can also toss out half a mil for people who couldn't care less about baseball or sports, but their is still half a million people who can go. I don't think it unreasonable to get to 4-5 games out of 81 played. That would push attendance over 2 mil. Baseball is still fairly inexpensive to attend.
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I think "if" most said no dome is because most people go on the cheap and don't think ahead. The city of Cleveland has already run the Browns out of town once because they were cheap.
Build the Dome. All new stadiums get a superbowl. That would pump hundreds of millions in to the local economy. It isn't about being a wimp. It about not being a dumbass.
Someone mentioned the Wolstein center....maybe we could build the Browns new stadium there. Maybe not. It would depends on the property footprint. Football stadiums need a larger footprint. You would also have to consider near by parking. If you get 30,000 to a baseball game, you might need parking for 17,000 cars or possibly less. For a football game with 65,000, you might need parking for 30,000 cars.
The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena. They don't draw that much.
The Wolstein Center belongs to CSU. You are not touching it unless you get CSU to give up their arena, and why should they do that? They don't need a bigger arena. They don't draw that much.
I considered that. I was just going with proposal in the article. I clearly don't have all the details. I am sure there are other tracts of land that could be used. Even county wide. Nothing says it would have to be smack downtown. More and more teams are doing that because you just don't have the space in downtown areas.
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You know Flug….old time football, was over in early December. Championships before Christmas.
I keep seeing people say that. My stock answer is if Football was meant to be played in cold crappy weather, why are all the college bowl games played in places like Pasadena, Miami, Tampa, Mobile, Dallas, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Tempe?
The answer is nobody would have gone if they were played in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Green Bay, Fargo.
College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow.
College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow.
Fair enough. College season are largely over around Thanksgiving The weather hasn't turned all that bad in late Nov, early Dec.
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Zombo said:
I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.
Zombo
You don't unless you want to move a freeway or two and the parking for 50,000+++ ? And why get rid of the Jake to begin with ?
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Zombo said:
I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.
Zombo
Well we could revisit history and raise our BP....
Art lied. He couldn't share, wouldn't share and wanted no part of the Gateway Project.
Of course, the shock wave that followed resulted in some hasty decisions....mandates by the NFL to get our team back, taxpayer/politician woes, etc.
Let's just hope Cleveland never has to go through something like this again.
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Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
True on some carpooling but there's also the other area demands on parking like people going to the bars and hotels that want to be in the area. And the Jake is next door to the Gund when there's something going on there.
Plus Indians games draw 10 to 30,000 fans a football game would easily double that. Affordable parking is the #1 complaint or problem wherever you go for big draw venues followed by hotel space.
Where could you put new stadiums unless you tear down and rebuild on site -or- the sometimes less popular go to a greenfield site far from the city overcrowding and start new with the acres and acres of accessible parking......but you lose the city feel and ambiance of the team.
The Cleveland Avon Lake Browns !?
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Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed. There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats, but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare. There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs. Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers. You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County.
Or...hey, something like this: take over a golf course and build it there. Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park. Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here. The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out.
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