Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland
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Why? Avon Lake is Lorain county. That is maybe a 15-20 drive from downtown on I90
I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County.
I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake.
I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County.
I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake.
I get. The person living in Avon Lake might say the same if it was developed in Stark County. As a season ticket holder who lives in Hamilton county, Tennessee., on the Georgia border, I don't care where they build it. I already drive 600+ miles to go to 6-7 games a year.. What's a few more? For me, build it between Columbus and Cleveland. Mansfield would work for me.
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Got to go...9am tee time.
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Why? Avon Lake is Lorain county. That is maybe a 15-20 drive from downtown on I90
I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County.
I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake.
I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County.
I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake.
That's what I picked because of it not being too far away and the cute new name the Cleveland/Avon Lake Browns
not because of any study of cost, availability, transportation or parking.
Buying up property whether through voluntary sales or eminent domain can get to be time consuming and expensive.
Like Dutch mentioned relocating a team out in the boonies miles from the city is not very appealing and last resort stuff .......just ask the SF and NY/NJ fans to mention a few.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
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GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
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Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
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They should put golf courses on cemeteries with a lot of open holes for graves or balls. Then I might be tempted to play.?
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Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
.
They should put golf courses on cemeteries with a lot of open holes for graves or balls. Then I might be tempted to play.?
They should put golf courses on cemeteries with a lot of open holes for graves or balls. Then I might be tempted to play.?
You are a sicko. Instead of sand traps a 6' deep hole and a ladder ?
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How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
The answer is: I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations? They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners.
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Gipper's cell phone has been invaded by crickets. We're sorry for any inconvenience this has caused.
From what I have gathered - and anyone who can confirm or refute this please do - the ENTIRE Gateway complex takes up 27 acres.
That includes baseball park that originally sat 43,000, a 20,000 seat arena, a parking deck and all the land in-between.
But somehow the Browns would have to have 300 acres near or in downtown Cleveland?
From what I have gathered - and anyone who can confirm or refute this please do - the ENTIRE Gateway complex takes up 27 acres.
That includes baseball park that originally sat 43,000, a 20,000 seat arena, a parking deck and all the land in-between.
But somehow the Browns would have to have 300 acres near or in downtown Cleveland?
YES. Per their probable demand. See my previous post. They might settle for 200 acres.
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Is the Akron Zoo all that viable? It's a pretty good parcel ..50 acres. I am sure you could buy up 20 more. I don't like evoking immanent domain laws, but I am sure Akron would like the business and would do what is best over the long haul.
Medina county has several locations. Avon in Lorain country is pretty wide open in spots. The Atlanta Braves have a beautiful complex north of Atlanta.
That is the script teams want to follow. Own the land, lease to those wanting to be near by. Sure Mr. Marriott, I can land lease you 5 acres for 20 years with 5 year options after that to build a beautiful hotel. That is how you pay for the thing as a private development. A owner isn't going to simply build a stadium unless he or she has a way to make money on the deal. You guys aren't children or stupid. None of you are going to build a house that you aren't going to get your money plus some back. At least knowingly. They want it to be a gathering spot above the 8 crappy home gams a year. Make it the place people want to go year round.
Akron isn't the best example....Avon in Lorain county is where I would look. I see lots of land on 90 just past the Westlake line.
Is the Akron Zoo all that viable? It's a pretty good parcel ..50 acres. I am sure you could buy up 20 more. I don't like evoking immanent domain laws, but I am sure Akron would like the business and would do what is best over the long haul.
Medina county has several locations. Avon in Lorain country is pretty wide open in spots. The Atlanta Braves have a beautiful complex north of Atlanta.
That is the script teams want to follow. Own the land, lease to those wanting to be near by. Sure Mr. Marriott, I can land lease you 5 acres for 20 years with 5 year options after that to build a beautiful hotel. That is how you pay for the thing as a private development. A owner isn't going to simply build a stadium unless he or she has a way to make money on the deal. You guys aren't children or stupid. None of you are going to build a house that you aren't going to get your money plus some back. At least knowingly. They want it to be a gathering spot above the 8 crappy home gams a year. Make it the place people want to go year round.
Akron isn't the best example....Avon in Lorain county is where I would look. I see lots of land on 90 just past the Westlake line.
The Akron Zoo IS viable, so that would not be the location. I had thought the location where the former Rolling Acres Mall sat would have made a fine location for a Stadium/Arena/retail site. There was likely enough land there...even is they had to take over some current older commercial areas adjacent to it. But, Amazon is now putting a distribution center there...and supposedly are going to have 3000 jobs (I really have my doubts about that). Then there is the Chapel Hill Mall site, which is likely closing. Malls are closing at a rate higher than golf courses.
But, no, Akron would not be the place they would want to go. Lorain County either. The whole sin tax thing if you recall was just a Cuyahoga County thing. I know they would prefer close to downtown, but if not that, they would need to stay in Cuyahoga County. The old Randall Park Mall could have been a thing, but it too is now an Amazon distribution center.
There is a place in the south Flats that I saw in a sattellite image. Near Steelyard Commons, and a golf course next to it called Washington Learning course. It looks like there is a huge, huge pile of coal, or some dark material there. I don't know if that is a landfill, or if it is still a viable manufacturing area. It is right at the Fleet Ave. intersection with I-77. See if you can take a look at that. I wonder if anyone knows anything about it.
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From what I have gathered - and anyone who can confirm or refute this please do - the ENTIRE Gateway complex takes up 27 acres.
That includes baseball park that originally sat 43,000, a 20,000 seat arena, a parking deck and all the land in-between.
But somehow the Browns would have to have 300 acres near or in downtown Cleveland?
I agree. To make it viable as a development for a owner financed deal, you are looking at 80 or so. You have to understand that is you move out to a somewhat remote location, you will need parking spots available.
I agree. To make it viable as a development for a owner financed deal, you are looking at 80 or so. You have to understand that is you move out to a somewhat remote location, you will need parking spots available.
And that is what they want. I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games. And I think they get like 15,000 cars there. That is $1,500,000 in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium.
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I guess I'm looking at it from someone who now lives in Stark County, and before that Portage County.
I would hope that if they moved from downtown they would do it somewhere a bit more centrally located than Avon Lake.
That's what I picked because of it not being too far away and the cute new name the Cleveland/Avon Lake Browns
not because of any study of cost, availability, transportation or parking.
Buying up property whether through voluntary sales or eminent domain can get to be time consuming and expensive.
Like Dutch mentioned relocating a team out in the boonies miles from the city is not very appealing and last resort stuff .......just ask the SF and NY/NJ fans to mention a few.
That's what I picked because of it not being too far away and the cute new name the Cleveland/Avon Lake Browns
not because of any study of cost, availability, transportation or parking.
Buying up property whether through voluntary sales or eminent domain can get to be time consuming and expensive.
Like Dutch mentioned relocating a team out in the boonies miles from the city is not very appealing and last resort stuff .......just ask the SF and NY/NJ fans to mention a few.
There is a lot of land at the Ravenna Arsenal.....but then you may get a number of people blown up in the excavation process as who knows what is buried there. When you look at it from a satellite view, you see like a thousand of these unusual formations on that land. I think they may all be bunkers of some sort. At one time they had talked about putting a huge Jet port on that property, kind of like the new Denver Airport, but that never happened.
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Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
.
Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
.
HIghland Park golf course.....off I-271. Could look at that at that. Near the posh side of town: Beachwood, Shaker Hts. Pepper Pike etc.
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I agree. To make it viable as a development for a owner financed deal, you are looking at 80 or so. You have to understand that is you move out to a somewhat remote location, you will need parking spots available.
And that is what they want. I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games. And I think they get like 15,000 cars there. That is $1,500,000 in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium.
And that is what they want. I read that Jerry charges $100 just to park at Cowboys games. And I think they get like 15,000 cars there. That is $1,500,000 in his pocket before you walk in the door to the stadium.
That's what all owners want concessions, parking and other miscellaneous items helps cover their fixed overhead costs like security, janitorial, ticket takers, etc......and those parking lot attendants.
The big money is in the NFL TV and local radio contracts among others. It definitely is a rich man's game.
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They should put golf courses on cemeteries with a lot of open holes for graves or balls. Then I might be tempted to play.?
You are a sicko. Instead of sand traps a 6' deep hole and a ladder ?
You are a sicko. Instead of sand traps a 6' deep hole and a ladder ?
Just in case I brain the caddie with the thrown club if I miss a putt into a hole that big.?
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Just in case I brain the caddie with the thrown club if I miss a putt into a hole that big.?
Who uses a caddy anymore, unless you are a pro? Are there any golf courses around any more that even have caddies to carry your clubs for you? When I did play golf (in the 80s/90s), I never used a caddy, nor do I recall every playing at a course that offered the use of one. Even the private club I belonged to once upon a time.
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Not sure if they still do, but last time I was at Westwood CC in Rocky River, they still had caddies
"And they don't really know even what they're talkin' about And I can't imagine what empty heads can achieve." -
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
The answer is: I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations? They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners.
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
The answer is: I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations? They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners.
Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres.
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We have to face facts. The days of stadiums, unless they are iconic, don't last 60 years anymore. Even if iconic they get torn down. Old Tiger stadium...Yankee stadium was as iconic as it gets.
Stadiums these days have a 30 year shelf life if they were built on the cheap like ours.. Ours, which is far from iconic, is what, 21-22 years old? It's time to start thinking about it. From planning to development takes 5 years.
If you build a really nice development, you might be able to go 50 years,
1) We have to face facts. The days of stadiums, unless they are iconic, don't last 60 years anymore. Even if iconic they get torn down. Old Tiger stadium...Yankee stadium was as iconic as it gets.
2) Stadiums these days have a 30 year shelf life if they were built on the cheap like ours.. Ours, which is far from iconic, is what, 21-22 years old? It's time to start thinking about it. From planning to development takes 5 years.
3) If you build a really nice development, you might be able to go 50 years,
1) & 2) In most cases yes 'Peen- but not in every case!!! In baseball you have Fenway and Wrigley- both over 100 years old. 5 MLB stadiums in total over 50 years old. Soldier Field was built back in the 20s, before it was renovated. I already gave my 0.02 Arrowhead opened in 1972, and MHO is it's good for at least another 20 years.
3) I'll comment further on Gipper's post..
Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
.
Some of them (cemeteries) - you can't. For those who have never been- one of the most amazing cemeteries I've ever visited is smack in the middle of downtown Boston, surrounded by skyscrapers. The Granary Burying Ground. History? The final resting place of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, and Paul Revere among others. We have our own in Cleveland the Eire Street Cemetery.
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
The answer is: I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations? They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners.
You and Ballpeen besides myself get it. You want a development like Kraft's Patriot Place. Hotel on site, maybe a movie megaplex, a bunch of restaurants & shops, and a king sized team shop.
HIghland Park golf course.....off I-271. Could look at that at that. Near the posh side of town: Beachwood, Shaker Hts. Pepper Pike etc.
Yup, saw that too Gip.
Regarding a racetrack- how about Northfield Park? Would the NFL tolerate a Casino on site? I can't tell whats just north of the racetrack though.
Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres.
We're just saying that model is going out of style if the owner wants to maximize his profit potential. Latest example is Kronke's SoFi stadium built away from LA on an old racetrack.
Indy HAD to build downtown. And please get real, there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland. There's really no option in downtown Cleveland short of demolishing an entire neighborhood. We've already said it- find us a suitable location near downtown that's 1,500' X 1,500' that you can clear out, oh and have adequate traffic access to.
That link Gipper posted did have a very suitable location- Burke Lakefront Airport. But as the article pointed out, there's tons of government red tape involved to close a working airport.
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1) We have to face facts. The days of stadiums, unless they are iconic, don't last 60 years anymore. Even if iconic they get torn down. Old Tiger stadium...Yankee stadium was as iconic as it gets.
2) Stadiums these days have a 30 year shelf life if they were built on the cheap like ours.. Ours, which is far from iconic, is what, 21-22 years old? It's time to start thinking about it. From planning to development takes 5 years.
3) If you build a really nice development, you might be able to go 50 years,
1) & 2) In most cases yes 'Peen- but not in every case!!! In baseball you have Fenway and Wrigley- both over 100 years old. 5 MLB stadiums in total over 50 years old. Soldier Field was built back in the 20s, before it was renovated. I already gave my 0.02 Arrowhead opened in 1972, and MHO is it's good for at least another 20 years.
3) I'll comment further on Gipper's post..
Just another thought on the Rodney Dangerfield's Caddyshack joke about the golf courses and cemeteries being a waste of good real estate they many years ago were located on the outskirts of towns away from everything.
What has happened over time is the cities, towns have grown out and around them particularly the golf courses which would make them the preferred location for a new stadium. Plus they would have the acreage needed for the stadium and adjacent buildings along with some parking. Might be cheaper than buying and demolishing blocks of housing.
Oh and I can't imagine what would be involved in relocating a cemetery, kind of like a bad zombie movie.
.
Some of them (cemeteries) - you can't. For those who have never been- one of the most amazing cemeteries I've ever visited is smack in the middle of downtown Boston, surrounded by skyscrapers. The Granary Burying Ground. History? The final resting place of Samuel Adams, John Hancock, and Paul Revere among others. We have our own in Cleveland the Eire Street Cemetery.
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
The answer is: I don't know, and it does not matter. If you have been reading the point is not how much ground those stadium's take up....but how much ground does the league and these owners WANT for their operations? They now want to follow the model set by the Cowboys, Patriots, 49ers, the LA teams, and others.....they want those like 300 acres so they can build a stadium, hotels, shops, parking etc. etc. so that they can garner big, big revenue from all that. They want to become real estate magnates, not just NFL team owners.
You and Ballpeen besides myself get it. You want a development like Kraft's Patriot Place. Hotel on site, maybe a movie megaplex, a bunch of restaurants & shops, and a king sized team shop.
HIghland Park golf course.....off I-271. Could look at that at that. Near the posh side of town: Beachwood, Shaker Hts. Pepper Pike etc.
Yup, saw that too Gip.
Regarding a racetrack- how about Northfield Park? Would the NFL tolerate a Casino on site? I can't tell whats just north of the racetrack though.
Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres.
We're just saying that model is going out of style if the owner wants to maximize his profit potential. Latest example is Kronke's SoFi stadium built away from LA on an old racetrack.
Indy HAD to build downtown. And please get real, there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland. There's really no option in downtown Cleveland short of demolishing an entire neighborhood. We've already said it- find us a suitable location near downtown that's 1,500' X 1,500' that you can clear out, oh and have adequate traffic access to.
That link Gipper posted did have a very suitable location- Burke Lakefront Airport. But as the article pointed out, there's tons of government red tape involved to close a working airport.
Indy HAD to build downtown. And please get real, there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland.
Why did the Indianapolis Colts HAVE to build downtown?
What do you mean there's no comparison between downtown Atlanta and Chicago to Cleveland?
The NFL model according to you and Gipper is to have 300 acres in the middle of nowhere with the exception of all the teams that have done exactly the opposite of that, two of those teams being the Vikings and Falcons, who opened their downtown, or near downtown domed stadiums in 2016 and 2017 respectively. .
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Not sure if they still do, but last time I was at Westwood CC in Rocky River, they still had caddies
Not sure if they still do, but last time I was at Westwood CC in Rocky River, they still had caddies
I hired caddies at Glen Eagles (Scotland) and Carnoustie. Well worth the splurge...
On this side of the pond used a caddy one time when I played Kirtland Country Club. My companies' President was a member. Really nice layout and very challenging.
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