Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland
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The Charlie Browns team they put on the field since coming back should be the ones paying the sin tax. It keeps stinking up the place.?
Good Grief!
Good Grief!
Come on now...That was truthfully a **Bold** idea... carry on... this is actually a good thoughtful read? (now back to spending Jimma's money...wisely)
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1) Because that's what the Colts wanted, and Irsay kicked in $100 million to sweeten the pot. In the 10 years since Lucas Oil was built the price ($720 million) of a new domed stadium has more than doubled- and along with it the requisite extortion of the paying public.
2) Are you just being dense? Other than they're all "downtown"? Any similarities end there. I'll leave it at that.
3) That "model" is what Kroenke is doing in LA, FYI. Following what Jones and Kraft have done to maximize their profits. I'm not saying we literally have to keep up with the (Jerry) Jonses. Haslam isn't going anywhere for several years- until he's nearing the end of his lease anyway, so all this talk is way premature.
Lease ends in 2028 or 2029.....IF there is to be something new on the horizon, they would not want to wait too long to start the planning process.
Lease ends in 2028 or 2029.....IF there is to be something new on the horizon, they would not want to wait too long to start the planning process.
That's just what I've been thinking. These projects generally get started in the secret pre-planning stages maybe around 10 or more years out with acquiring the legal, property searches, rough construction estimates for the financial planning, etc required to see if it is even possible.
I remember in the steel construction business we'd get the rough quotes for Building A or Project X so they could get a handle on the tonnage, costs, trucks needed cranes required, concrete costs, etc. Then then with an architect spin this information with rough estimates for finishing the building or project into the preliminary costs for the project.
They then start the "money stage" to see what kind of financing is needed and who might foot the bill for it. They then send out feelers to the various governments that might be involved. This all takes a few years before it ever hits your local newspapers or internet rumours and for all of us here on TBB to figure it all out.
And that's all there is to it.
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I don't even go to A&M games anymore. Cheapest seat in the house is on my clicker. Comes with a beer or a glass of wine and instant replay with commentary. Plus I can always record it and if they get blown out I just delete it. I run the No Heartbreak Hotel.?
I don't even go to A&M games anymore. Cheapest seat in the house is on my clicker. Comes with a beer or a glass of wine and instant replay with commentary. Plus I can always record it and if they get blown out I just delete it. I run the No Heartbreak Hotel.?
Yeah, I can't really complain about Browns ticket prices. You can ask that wild & crazy driving guy Ballpeen how much he shells out for his Florida Gators tickets (besides the Browns) every year- I'll assume he still has them.
When I bought in on my PSLs in 1996, it cost me $1,500 for two seats payable in three yearly installments. No further cost on my part except renewing the tickets every year at the latest price Jimmy feels like charging. OTOH one of my wine pals (retired dentist from Ohio State Dental School) has season tickets to the Buckeyes. She has to kick in a $2,000 contribution to the Athletic Department every year just to retain the privilege of buying her tickets- and they're almost as expensive, $100 as opposed to my $120, and they're not nearly as good- corner end zone compared to my 20 yard line sideline. It's quite a nice racket OSU has going, the quality of your ticket is dependent on your annual contribution and total lifetime contributions. I wouldn't doubt the premium seating between the 40s sets those wealthy alumni back around $50,000 a year.
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1. So the "model" is what Kroenke is doing, but numerous teams have recently done the total opposite.
2. Atlanta's downtown is so great, so much better than Cleveland's, that the Braves flew the coop and built their new stadium nowhere near it. They actually abandoned the great downtown of Atlanta, that Cleveland can't compare to.
3. See #1.
I am far less impressed with downtown Atlanta than you are. It might be bigger than Cleveland's, but greater is not a term I would use. Sorry.
I am far less impressed with downtown Atlanta than you are. It might be bigger than Cleveland's, but greater is not a term I would use. Sorry.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
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I believe over half of the Vikings dome was paid by the owner.
Here's the deal: Some teams have built megaplexes outside the city they are named for, some have built new stadiums smack dab in the heart of their respective cities.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Browns could very well build a new (most likely domed) stadium inside the city limits, near or in downtown, or they could build outside the city... but I think that if the Haslams continuing owning the Browns, First Energy Stadium will not get another 20 years.
It shouldn't. The stadium isn't very good. It was built in haste and on the cheap. It's kind of like a medium level builders spec home. It's OK for 20 years, then things start falling apart.
It shouldn't. The stadium isn't very good. It was built in haste and on the cheap. It's kind of like a medium level builders spec home. It's OK for 20 years, then things start falling apart.
I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one.
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Yeah, it does matter. It matters because apparently the owners of the Detroit Lions, Indianapolis Colts, Seattle Seahawks, Minnesota Vikings and Atlanta Falcons all built new stadiums in their respective downtowns, or just outside it, for nothing resembling your 300 acres or 200 acres.
No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
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No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Maybe Tour is on to something...
It's your time... do with it as you will.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I am far less impressed with downtown Atlanta than you are. It might be bigger than Cleveland's, but greater is not a term I would use. Sorry.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
OK. No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta. To me, its just OK.
And you CAN pay money to see me in court. I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.
(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)
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No, it doesn't matter a cabbage fart what those guys did....IF the Haslam's and the league were to get what they want.
Now...IF there were to be a new stadium, could they settle for something less than what they want? Sure. They could look at scaling thing down, because they can't get what they want. But it has nothing to do with what these other teams do. The "other" teams that are the models for what NFL owners likely will want in the future are the ones I previously mentioned....Cowboys/Pats/LA etc......the ones with a lot of developable land.
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Not saying they should be disregarded....but, I am telling you those are NOT the trend, and they are NOT really what the NFL and a lot of their owners want. Do they "settle" for a small footprint stadium arrangement? Sure they do, as I said, in situations where they are getting the vast public subsidies to build these stadiums. Those particular owners decided not to go with the Kraft/Jones/Kroenke/York/Khan model because they wanted the easy way in. And could the Haslam's "settle" for the easy way in as well? Sure, if they don't want to go through the work and process of doing it the newer way. But I believe ab initio, their primary goal IS to explore doing it by the mega-development method...because "your" way is now just really the "settle" method of doing it. The Haslams have the money to at least consider privately financing their development. Buffet paid 2.76 Billion for just a 38.6% share of Pilot. By 2023 he will purchase a stake in company to where he will be 80% owner, with the Haslam's owning the rest. That could be another 4 billion in Haslam's pocket. More than enough to start financing a megadevelopment if they wanted. With that kind of ready cash that will be available to them soon...and seeing the Pats/Rams/Cowboys etc model out there.....why oh why would they just settle?
So, again, you may be right. Maybe the Haslam's will settle....as the NFL has always in the past really relied on the taxpayer footing their facility bills, and maybe that temptation to blackmail the city again for the big money they can get out of all us will be there. It has been a proven tactic of success for the NFL owners in the past. But now there is another mode in the way of doing things...where, while it may cost them a lot more to do private financing, the ultimate return may be vastly higher than even when they have someone else paying for things. After all, if a city is financing YOUR business facility, they are going to want a big cut in return.
And, no, you don't want to conclude that Tour is on to something. His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument. You at least stand your ground.
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If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
OK. No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta. To me, its just OK.
And you CAN pay money to see me in court. I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.
(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)
OK. No, I didn't catch that it was sarcasm, as there are people that sing the praises of Atlanta. To me, its just OK.
And you CAN pay money to see me in court. I can send you my court schedule if you would like. Doylestown Mayor's Court. Not far from Canal Fulton.
(and please....recognize this as sarcasm....for as my magisterial duties are concerned, you can see that for free....but otherwise, yes, you would have to pay dearly)
I think that begins with "your honor I".........
If that would ever happen to anyone here maybe you could give us a BROWNS BOARD discount, eh ?
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It shouldn't. The stadium isn't very good. It was built in haste and on the cheap. It's kind of like a medium level builders spec home. It's OK for 20 years, then things start falling apart.
I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one.
I would love to see the plans for the OTHER ideas they had for the stadium, because the rumor was that the one they picked was basically the most generic one.
In part true. We'll use a cookie cutter plan because the architectural guys already had something similar, and it cuts down on costs. BUT, the plan also was to keep the "feel" of the old stadium as much as possible, resulting in my major gripe about the place. The inadequate room behind the stands relative to any "modern" stadium. If you've ever been to Ford Field, Lucas Oil, or Paul Brown you know what I'm talking about.
If you couldn't figure out that was sarcasm, I honestly feel bad for you.
Jesus Christ, I would have paid money to see you in court. That had to be hilarious.
Sorry Dutch your sarcasm comes through very poorly the majority of the time. Gipper isn't the only one who doesn't see it.
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Basically, if examples that refute Gipper's argument are found, they are not important and should be disregarded.
Maybe Tour is on to something...
Not saying they should be disregarded....but, I am telling you those are NOT the trend, and they are NOT really what the NFL and a lot of their owners want. Do they "settle" for a small footprint stadium arrangement? Sure they do, as I said, in situations where they are getting the vast public subsidies to build these stadiums. Those particular owners decided not to go with the Kraft/Jones/Kroenke/York/Khan model because they wanted the easy way in. And could the Haslam's "settle" for the easy way in as well? Sure, if they don't want to go through the work and process of doing it the newer way. But I believe ab initio, their primary goal IS to explore doing it by the mega-development method...because "your" way is now just really the "settle" method of doing it. The Haslams have the money to at least consider privately financing their development. Buffet paid 2.76 Billion for just a 38.6% share of Pilot. By 2023 he will purchase a stake in company to where he will be 80% owner, with the Haslam's owning the rest. That could be another 4 billion in Haslam's pocket. More than enough to start financing a megadevelopment if they wanted. With that kind of ready cash that will be available to them soon...and seeing the Pats/Rams/Cowboys etc model out there.....why oh why would they just settle?
So, again, you may be right. Maybe the Haslam's will settle....as the NFL has always in the past really relied on the taxpayer footing their facility bills, and maybe that temptation to blackmail the city again for the big money they can get out of all us will be there. It has been a proven tactic of success for the NFL owners in the past. But now there is another mode in the way of doing things...where, while it may cost them a lot more to do private financing, the ultimate return may be vastly higher than even when they have someone else paying for things. After all, if a city is financing YOUR business facility, they are going to want a big cut in return.
And, no, you don't want to conclude that Tour is on to something. His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument. You at least stand your ground.
His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument.
Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
His method is just to be a little cunny and run and hide from any reasonable argument.
Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
Oh, Gipper...
You're the only one here who thinks any of your arguments are reasonable.
Surprised you even saw that comment.
Who among us here has won court cases with reasonable arguments? If you take off your bridal veil of prejudice, You clearly would see that my arguments are perfectly reasonable on this matter, because, in reality, from my experience, the best argument is that in which the full force of the facts are on your side. And the full force of the facts ARE on my side on this: Many of the NFL owners are going full guns on the mega-development model for their stadiums...they are going fully into wanting largely private/public partnership funded facilities that can put them into the category as "project developers" as it does "NFL team owners". And, as I said, where they have not done that, those owners were still far more willing to slurp from the public money trough than their brethren who had more foresight into the future.
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Jacksonville Stadium project:
Could be a model for Cleveland. Remember the area in the Flats I referenced, just west of Fleet st. along Washington Parkway......take an old industrial site along a river, clean it up, build a stadium/shopping/hotel/condo complex like this one in JAX.
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Dallas. Tons of surrounding parking (for both stadiums)....tons of hotel/restaurants/commercial surrounding it.
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Before and after pictures of Patriots stadium area:
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New LA stadium development plans:
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Levi Stadium Development area: 49ers:
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Development under construction around MetLife stadium NY/NH
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Development under construction around MetLife stadium NY/NH
Development under construction around MetLife stadium NY/NH
Good pics, puts things in perspective.
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