Most underrated Browns in modern era
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As evidence of how underrated Gary Collins was/is, note this:
When he retired in 1971, he was #4 overall in career TD catches with 70. Only Don Hutson, Tommy McDonald, and Art Powell (who played mostly in the pass happy AFL) were ahead of him. (He was ahead of Raymond Berry who did make the HOF)
Now, a lot of players since have passed him by.....he is now 46th. But, again, most of those that passed him played in the post 1978 era which is when the vast rule changes happened that opened up the pass game so much.
A few guys who played into the mid to late 70s did go by him eventually: Bob Hayes...71, Lance Alworth,...85, Fred Biletnikoff...76, Don Maynard..88, and Charley Taylor...79...Paul Warfield 85....and every single one of these made the PFHOF even though they were just a few career TDs ahead of Collins.
Collins ha more career TDs than the following Hall of Famers: Raymond Berry, Art Monk, Michael Irvin, Charlie Joiner, Bobby Mitchell, John Stallworth..63, Shannon Sharpe, Dave Caspar, Lynn Swann...only 51 , Ozzie Newsome even, and Kellen Winslow Sr.
Note this: The duo of Paul Warfield and Gary Collins was far more productive than were the duo of Lynn Swann and John Stallworth.
So: Warfield/Collins combined total of 155 TDs...better than Swann/Stallworth 114 TDs (mindful that Warfield played some years in Miami. He had 52 career TDs with Browns, 33 with Fins). Still, he had more TDs in 8 years with the Browns than Swann did in his career with Pitt. Collins/Warfield combined in just Cleveland years was 122 TDs.
So, I think it could be argued that as of 1980....Gary Collins was among the Top Ten best WRs to have played up to that point.
And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
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What about Frank Ryan....vs. Terry Bradshaw?
It CAN be argued that, by stats anyway, Ryan was as good or better than Bradshaw:
The two big differences is that Bradshaw played 14 years for the Steelers, Ryan only 7 for the Browns. Plus Bradshaw had the 4 titles to Ryan's one. (But....can we say that the Steeler's defense had a lot to do with those 4 titles?)
Here are their side by side stats:
W/L: Bradshaw 107-51 67.7 win pct. Ryan 52-22 70.2 win pct. Edge to Ryan
Comp. pct.: Bradshaw 2025/3901 51.9% Ryan 907/1755 51.7% really a dead heat
Yardage: Bradshaw 27,989 in 14 years, or 1999 yards per year. Ryan 13,361 in 7 years. 1908 yards per year. Edge to Bradshaw
TD passes: Bradshaw 212 TDs or 15.14 TDs per year. Ryan 134 TDs or 19.14 TDs per year. Big edge to Ryan (and remember, he had a guy named Jim Brown behind him scoring TDs by a record number).
TD pct: Bradshaw 5.4% Ryan 7.6% Big edge to Ryan
Ints/% Bradshaw 210 ints 5.4% Ryan 88 Ints 5.0 % Slight edge to Ryan
Yards per attempt: Bradshaw 7.2 Ryan 7.6 Edge to Ryan
Yards per catch: Bradshaw 13.9 Ryan 14.7 Edge to Ryan
Passer rating: Bradshaw 70.9 Ryan 81.4 Edge to Ryan.
So, I believe that this shows really that the 60s Browns in terms of offensive skill players were superior to the 70s Steelers.
But, OK, that Steelers defense was much better.
So, I am going to say that Frank Ryan should be in the group of vastly underrated Browns players.
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Lawrence Vickers
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John Greco....
Back when we had a really good OL John was everyone's afterthought.
Started two years next to Joe T. at LG. Flipped seamlessly to RG when Bito came along and elevated Schwartz's game when he moved.
Played heavy in our power run scheme and then shed 20 pounds to get quicker when we went to the ZBS.
Twice stabilized our Center play... once when Mack was injured... once when Erving face planted
The guy brought his lunch pail to Berea for 5 good seasons before injury ground him down.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Braylon Edwards...............
"You see the Rams are still thinking that they are playing Tony Dorsett" -Jim Brown 1978 -
This is a great topic Icecube.
Good mentions so far. Let me add a few:
Defense-Felix Wright, Walter Johnson (played with Jerry Sherk), Mike Johnson, Thom Darden , & Clarence Scott
Offense- Vinny Testaverde, Calvin Hill (both were "short timers" but made a impact), Kevin Johnson, Mike Baab
Special Teams- Matt Bahr, Gerald McNeil. I'm assuming Dawson, Cribbs, & Metcalf aren't under rated.
This is a great topic Icecube.
Good mentions so far. Let me add a few:
Defense-Felix Wright, Walter Johnson (played with Jerry Sherk), Mike Johnson, Thom Darden , & Clarence Scott
Offense- Vinny Testaverde, Calvin Hill (both were "short timers" but made a impact), Kevin Johnson, Mike Baab
Special Teams- Matt Bahr, Gerald McNeil. I'm assuming Dawson, Cribbs, & Metcalf aren't under rated.
Thanks, Bob. You mentioned some good ones. Mike Johnson, underrated. Vinny, although his best ball was post Cleveland, was very athletic. And, although Metcalf has got some kudos, I feel he isn't appreciated enough for what he did. Not an every down, between the tackles back, but boy he had his moments. Do you remember when he seemingly single-handily beat the Steelers in the 90's? And, of course, Icecube! What about Michael Dean Perry?
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Braylon Edwards...............
Braylon Edwards...............
I thought he had the talent to be a top 5 WR, just never got on track for very long. He showed what he could do in 2007, 80 grabs, 1289 yds, 16 TDs, back when passing was more difficult.
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Mike Johnson was a great choice.
So what exactly constitutes the "modern era"?
Two names that come to mind for the expansion-era Browns are Orpheus Roye and Daylon McCutcheon.
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Webster Slaughter
Webster Slaughter
Never thought him as underrated tho.
Eddie "bullet head" Johnson was underrated imo.
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Mike Johnson was a great choice.
So what exactly constitutes the "modern era"?
Two names that come to mind for the expansion-era Browns are Orpheus Roye and Daylon McCutcheon.
Mike Johnson was a great choice.
So what exactly constitutes the "modern era"?
Two names that come to mind for the expansion-era Browns are Orpheus Roye and Daylon McCutcheon.
Well when you Google the question you get this:
1970FRANCHISES: The NFL's final and biggest merger kicked the league into a new era in 1970, the start of a decade where pro football entered the modern era. Combining the AFL and NFL meant splitting 26 teams into two conferences.Oct 25, 2019NFL At 100: Arrival of 1970s ushers in NFL's modern era
That said I have read once before that the "modern era" was sometime in the 1930's.
Gipper says it was post WWII.
So lets just keep it post 1970 that which the youngsters here can relate to.
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Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Andra Davis MLB- had some big seasons.
Phil Dawson - we may never see someone so reliable that understood kicking in Cleveland like Phil.
Orlando Brown T.
Josh Cribbs- I wish the Browns put him at WR sooner. Just a complete weapon with the ball in his hands
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As evidence of how underrated Gary Collins was/is, note this:
When he retired in 1971, he was #4 overall in career TD catches with 70. Only Don Hutson, Tommy McDonald, and Art Powell (who played mostly in the pass happy AFL) were ahead of him. (He was ahead of Raymond Berry who did make the HOF)
Now, a lot of players since have passed him by.....he is now 46th. But, again, most of those that passed him played in the post 1978 era which is when the vast rule changes happened that opened up the pass game so much.
A few guys who played into the mid to late 70s did go by him eventually: Bob Hayes...71, Lance Alworth,...85, Fred Biletnikoff...76, Don Maynard..88, and Charley Taylor...79...Paul Warfield 85....and every single one of these made the PFHOF even though they were just a few career TDs ahead of Collins.
Collins ha more career TDs than the following Hall of Famers: Raymond Berry, Art Monk, Michael Irvin, Charlie Joiner, Bobby Mitchell, John Stallworth..63, Shannon Sharpe, Dave Caspar, Lynn Swann...only 51 , Ozzie Newsome even, and Kellen Winslow Sr.
Note this: The duo of Paul Warfield and Gary Collins was far more productive than were the duo of Lynn Swann and John Stallworth.
So: Warfield/Collins combined total of 155 TDs...better than Swann/Stallworth 114 TDs (mindful that Warfield played some years in Miami. He had 52 career TDs with Browns, 33 with Fins). Still, he had more TDs in 8 years with the Browns than Swann did in his career with Pitt. Collins/Warfield combined in just Cleveland years was 122 TDs.
So, I think it could be argued that as of 1980....Gary Collins was among the Top Ten best WRs to have played up to that point.
And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
Yea, it's not even debated. Franco was a good back, Brown perhaps the best ever, it can be argued.
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Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
I don't know, in my mind "modern era" is 80's and after. It's "basically" the same game since. Yea, yea, rules aid passing game, protect QB and all that.
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And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
Yea, it's not even debated. Franco was a good back, Brown perhaps the best ever, it can be argued.
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Mike Johnson was a great choice.
So what exactly constitutes the "modern era"?
Two names that come to mind for the expansion-era Browns are Orpheus Roye and Daylon McCutcheon.
Well when you Google the question you get this:
1970FRANCHISES: The NFL's final and biggest merger kicked the league into a new era in 1970, the start of a decade where pro football entered the modern era. Combining the AFL and NFL meant splitting 26 teams into two conferences.Oct 25, 2019NFL At 100: Arrival of 1970s ushers in NFL's modern era
That said I have read once before that the "modern era" was sometime in the 1930's.
Gipper says it was post WWII.
So lets just keep it post 1970 that which the youngsters here can relate to.
Well when you Google the question you get this:
1970FRANCHISES: The NFL's final and biggest merger kicked the league into a new era in 1970, the start of a decade where pro football entered the modern era. Combining the AFL and NFL meant splitting 26 teams into two conferences.Oct 25, 2019NFL At 100: Arrival of 1970s ushers in NFL's modern era
That said I have read once before that the "modern era" was sometime in the 1930's.
Gipper says it was post WWII.
So lets just keep it post 1970 that which the youngsters here can relate to.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame says it is post WWII ....not me. And no, we won't keep it to 1970 because I see no reason to pander to ignorance. Young people can read about the past. "Kids these days" can no more relate to the 1970s (and 80s to a great extent) as they can to the 1950s/40s/30s. So why act like they are incapable of seeing past their own noses.
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Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
That is really true, somewhat. That was a big point in rule changes. But then, there were probably big rule changes at times before that.
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And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
Yea, it's not even debated. Franco was a good back, Brown perhaps the best ever, it can be argued.
what? get off another lawn!!
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