Most underrated Browns in modern era
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Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Andra Davis MLB- had some big seasons.
Phil Dawson - we may never see someone so reliable that understood kicking in Cleveland like Phil.
Orlando Brown T.
Josh Cribbs- I wish the Browns put him at WR sooner. Just a complete weapon with the ball in his hands
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As evidence of how underrated Gary Collins was/is, note this:
When he retired in 1971, he was #4 overall in career TD catches with 70. Only Don Hutson, Tommy McDonald, and Art Powell (who played mostly in the pass happy AFL) were ahead of him. (He was ahead of Raymond Berry who did make the HOF)
Now, a lot of players since have passed him by.....he is now 46th. But, again, most of those that passed him played in the post 1978 era which is when the vast rule changes happened that opened up the pass game so much.
A few guys who played into the mid to late 70s did go by him eventually: Bob Hayes...71, Lance Alworth,...85, Fred Biletnikoff...76, Don Maynard..88, and Charley Taylor...79...Paul Warfield 85....and every single one of these made the PFHOF even though they were just a few career TDs ahead of Collins.
Collins ha more career TDs than the following Hall of Famers: Raymond Berry, Art Monk, Michael Irvin, Charlie Joiner, Bobby Mitchell, John Stallworth..63, Shannon Sharpe, Dave Caspar, Lynn Swann...only 51 , Ozzie Newsome even, and Kellen Winslow Sr.
Note this: The duo of Paul Warfield and Gary Collins was far more productive than were the duo of Lynn Swann and John Stallworth.
So: Warfield/Collins combined total of 155 TDs...better than Swann/Stallworth 114 TDs (mindful that Warfield played some years in Miami. He had 52 career TDs with Browns, 33 with Fins). Still, he had more TDs in 8 years with the Browns than Swann did in his career with Pitt. Collins/Warfield combined in just Cleveland years was 122 TDs.
So, I think it could be argued that as of 1980....Gary Collins was among the Top Ten best WRs to have played up to that point.
And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
Yea, it's not even debated. Franco was a good back, Brown perhaps the best ever, it can be argued.
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Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
I don't know, in my mind "modern era" is 80's and after. It's "basically" the same game since. Yea, yea, rules aid passing game, protect QB and all that.
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And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
Yea, it's not even debated. Franco was a good back, Brown perhaps the best ever, it can be argued.
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Mike Johnson was a great choice.
So what exactly constitutes the "modern era"?
Two names that come to mind for the expansion-era Browns are Orpheus Roye and Daylon McCutcheon.
Well when you Google the question you get this:
1970FRANCHISES: The NFL's final and biggest merger kicked the league into a new era in 1970, the start of a decade where pro football entered the modern era. Combining the AFL and NFL meant splitting 26 teams into two conferences.Oct 25, 2019NFL At 100: Arrival of 1970s ushers in NFL's modern era
That said I have read once before that the "modern era" was sometime in the 1930's.
Gipper says it was post WWII.
So lets just keep it post 1970 that which the youngsters here can relate to.
Well when you Google the question you get this:
1970FRANCHISES: The NFL's final and biggest merger kicked the league into a new era in 1970, the start of a decade where pro football entered the modern era. Combining the AFL and NFL meant splitting 26 teams into two conferences.Oct 25, 2019NFL At 100: Arrival of 1970s ushers in NFL's modern era
That said I have read once before that the "modern era" was sometime in the 1930's.
Gipper says it was post WWII.
So lets just keep it post 1970 that which the youngsters here can relate to.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame says it is post WWII ....not me. And no, we won't keep it to 1970 because I see no reason to pander to ignorance. Young people can read about the past. "Kids these days" can no more relate to the 1970s (and 80s to a great extent) as they can to the 1950s/40s/30s. So why act like they are incapable of seeing past their own noses.
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Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
Modern era needs a new "definition".
The point at which emphasis on the run game gave way to passing works... somewhere around the time that illegal contact became a thing. Much bigger change to the game than the merger.
That said.... only moves the start date back about a decade. Rule came in in the late 70's, but enforcement ramped up gradually thru first half of the 80's.
That is really true, somewhat. That was a big point in rule changes. But then, there were probably big rule changes at times before that.
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And it goes without saying that Jim Brown was better than Franco Harris....on any level you want to measure.
Yea, it's not even debated. Franco was a good back, Brown perhaps the best ever, it can be argued.
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Well when you Google the question you get this:
1970FRANCHISES: The NFL's final and biggest merger kicked the league into a new era in 1970, the start of a decade where pro football entered the modern era. Combining the AFL and NFL meant splitting 26 teams into two conferences.Oct 25, 2019NFL At 100: Arrival of 1970s ushers in NFL's modern era
That said I have read once before that the "modern era" was sometime in the 1930's.
Gipper says it was post WWII.
So lets just keep it post 1970 that which the youngsters here can relate to.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame says it is post WWII ....not me. And no, we won't keep it to 1970 because I see no reason to pander to ignorance. Young people can read about the past. "Kids these days" can no more relate to the 1970s (and 80s to a great extent) as they can to the 1950s/40s/30s. So why act like they are incapable of seeing past their own noses.
The Pro Football Hall of Fame says it is post WWII ....not me. And no, we won't keep it to 1970 because I see no reason to pander to ignorance. Young people can read about the past. "Kids these days" can no more relate to the 1970s (and 80s to a great extent) as they can to the 1950s/40s/30s. So why act like they are incapable of seeing past their own noses.
I didn't mean to imply that you had the final say so on when the modern era started, I presumed you had info on that or read it somewhere.
"Most underrated Browns in modern era", was the thread title not "Most underrated Browns", so it's pretty clear that Icecube's objective was to talk about those Browns players who most of us watched growing up, not the ones out of ancient history books.
But I do see your point in raising up dead players if you think Browns fans are ignorant.
But wait a sec, I thought only bungle and squeeler fans were ignorant. No?
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The Pro Football Hall of Fame says it is post WWII ....not me. And no, we won't keep it to 1970 because I see no reason to pander to ignorance. Young people can read about the past. "Kids these days" can no more relate to the 1970s (and 80s to a great extent) as they can to the 1950s/40s/30s. So why act like they are incapable of seeing past their own noses.
I didn't mean to imply that you had the final say so on when the modern era started, I presumed you had info on that or read it somewhere.
"Most underrated Browns in modern era", was the thread title not "Most underrated Browns", so it's pretty clear that Icecube's objective was to talk about those Browns players who most of us watched growing up, not the ones out of ancient history books.
But I do see your point in raising up dead players if you think Browns fans are ignorant.
But wait a sec, I thought only bungle and squeeler fans were ignorant. No?
I didn't mean to imply that you had the final say so on when the modern era started, I presumed you had info on that or read it somewhere.
"Most underrated Browns in modern era", was the thread title not "Most underrated Browns", so it's pretty clear that Icecube's objective was to talk about those Browns players who most of us watched growing up, not the ones out of ancient history books.
But I do see your point in raising up dead players if you think Browns fans are ignorant.
But wait a sec, I thought only bungle and squeeler fans were ignorant. No?
You seem to be proof otherwise.
But you used the term "most of us watched growing up". Actually, based on what I have deduced..."most of us" are in our mid to late 60s on here. I am, Hoorta is, WSS is, TXag is, and a number of others. While I personally do not remember all of Browns history, the guys I mentioned: Collins, Shafrath, Clay Matthews, Jim Brown etc. I do certainly remember watching play (on TV). No, I don't remember Otto Graham.
But it seems that you want to appeal to people that never saw Brian Sipe or Bernie Kosar play. I mean, to some of the kids on here, those two are as much "ancient history" as is OG.
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Some stuff on the evolution of rule changes throughout the years:
1933
The NFL, which long had followed the rules of college football, made a number of significant changes from the college game for the first time and began to develop rules serving its needs and the style of play it preferred. The innovations from the 1932 championship game-inbounds line or hashmarks and goal posts on the goal lines-were adopted. Also the forward pass was legalized from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage, February 25.
1938
At the suggestion of Halas, Hugh (Shorty) Ray became a technical advisor on rules and officiating to the NFL. A new rule called for a 15-yard penalty for roughing the passer.
And see this for various other rule changes: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/748241-nfl-rankings-the-16-best-nfl-rule-changes-in-history
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This is a great topic Icecube.
Good mentions so far. Let me add a few:
Defense-Felix Wright, Walter Johnson (played with Jerry Sherk), Mike Johnson, Thom Darden , & Clarence Scott
Offense- Vinny Testaverde, Calvin Hill (both were "short timers" but made a impact), Kevin Johnson, Mike Baab
Special Teams- Matt Bahr, Gerald McNeil. I'm assuming Dawson, Cribbs, & Metcalf aren't under rated.
Thanks, Bob. You mentioned some good ones. Mike Johnson, underrated. Vinny, although his best ball was post Cleveland, was very athletic. And, although Metcalf has got some kudos, I feel he isn't appreciated enough for what he did. Not an every down, between the tackles back, but boy he had his moments. Do you remember when he seemingly single-handily beat the Steelers in the 90's? And, of course, Icecube! What about Michael Dean Perry?
Thanks, Bob. You mentioned some good ones. Mike Johnson, underrated. Vinny, although his best ball was post Cleveland, was very athletic. And, although Metcalf has got some kudos, I feel he isn't appreciated enough for what he did. Not an every down, between the tackles back, but boy he had his moments. Do you remember when he seemingly single-handily beat the Steelers in the 90's? And, of course, Icecube! What about Michael Dean Perry?
Oh yeah, Metcalf's 2 punt returns. I was there, the place went totally crazy. It's on youtube, Cris Collinsworth even got excited, and you know how much he hates the Browns.
Metcalf also had some other great moments, @Tampa Bay, Oakland, and in the Astrodome vs the Oilers. He seemed to always torture the Oilers.
MDP was under appreciated. He could actually sack Elway, so he holds a special place lol.
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Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know.
Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.
Yes they were exciting.
A closer look...... Games W/L Winning %
Quarterback Games started Wins Losses Ties Winning pct. Brian Sipe 112 57 55 0 .509 Bernie Kosar 105 53 51 1 .510 Frank Ryan 76 52 22 2 .697 Otto Graham 71 57 13 1 .810 Tim Couch 59 22 37 0 .373 Bill Nelsen 51 34 16 1 .676 Mike Phipps 51 24 25 2 .490 Milt Plum 51 33 16 2 .667 Derek Anderson 34 16 18 0 .471 Vinny Testaverde 31 16 15 0 .516 Baker Mayfield 29 12 17 0 .414 -
Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know.
Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.
Yes they were exciting.
A closer look...... Games W/L Winning %
Quarterback Games started Wins Losses Ties Winning pct. Brian Sipe 112 57 55 0 .509 Bernie Kosar 105 53 51 1 .510 Frank Ryan 76 52 22 2 .697 Otto Graham 71 57 13 1 .810 Tim Couch 59 22 37 0 .373 Bill Nelsen 51 34 16 1 .676 Mike Phipps 51 24 25 2 .490 Milt Plum 51 33 16 2 .667 Derek Anderson 34 16 18 0 .471 Vinny Testaverde 31 16 15 0 .516 Baker Mayfield 29 12 17 0 .414 Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.
Yes they were exciting.
A closer look...... Games W/L Winning %
Quarterback Games started Wins Losses Ties Winning pct. Brian Sipe 112 57 55 0 .509 Bernie Kosar 105 53 51 1 .510 Frank Ryan 76 52 22 2 .697 Otto Graham 71 57 13 1 .810 Tim Couch 59 22 37 0 .373 Bill Nelsen 51 34 16 1 .676 Mike Phipps 51 24 25 2 .490 Milt Plum 51 33 16 2 .667 Derek Anderson 34 16 18 0 .471 Vinny Testaverde 31 16 15 0 .516 Baker Mayfield 29 12 17 0 .414 Note.....the number you have for Otto Graham only includes the 6 years after the Browns joined the NFL.
He started 43 other games for the Browns for the AAFC. Not sure of his record in those games, ...but I do know that in 1948 he started 14 and won every single one of them. So that brings his win total to 61.
In 1946 he started 9 of 14 games for a team that went 12-2. 1947 he started 9 of 14 games for a team that went 12-1-1. In 1949 he started 11 of 12 for a team that went 9-1-2. So, 29 more starts. At MOST he could have lost 4 of those starts. So, even if he did, he would have been 25-4....or 22-4-3. Not sure why they don't specify.
So he could have been: 57 + 14 + 25 = 96 wins, or at least 93 wins. And the most losses he could have had were 17 losses. (and I bet that the other QB...Cliff Lewis, who started some Browns games was the QB for some of those 4 losses.).
OGs WORST record then could have been : 93-17-4. ...or an .845 win pct. And it could have been a bit better. Even up to about an .880 win pct.
In fact...I am going to make QB win pct. the subject of my next trivia.
Even more puzzling is: Why would Paul Brown start a guy named Cliff Lewis for 5 games in 1946 and 1947...when he had Otts Freeking Graham playing QB for him? (I am not certain that those were injury situations)
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Found this note:
Graham also started 53 games for the Cleveland Browns when they were in the All-America Football Conference (1946–1949). He finished his professional career (AAFC and NFL) with a 105–17–4 regular-season record (.861).
what? get off another lawn!!
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