Left Tackle - Flugel Faves and Hopefuls
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Slight difference in our takes on Wills, but not Thomas or Wirfs... and my reluctance with Wills is simply due to the even small risk of having 1 of 2 experienced RTs have to flip to LT.
But do yourself a favor and spend a few minutes with...
The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter with Houston down 35-10. That said, he looked really good. The rest of the highlights looked very good vrs Cincy and Washington State (both opponents that were beating his team).
I may not word this well here; but this guy has the type of football IQ and discipline I like in an OL (especially a LT). There's a time to kill and a time to finesse often dictated by formation advantage or disadvantage. As an offensive linemen, 2 advantages you always have over your opponent is the snap count and where the play is going; and film shows Jones gets to the location he needs to be at first (regardless if the formation has him at an advantage or disadvantage). I saw him getting to the 2nd tiers when the formation gave him the advantage to do so - where he just give a quick initial hit at the LOS prior to getting to the next level to seal/shield or finish that defender. That requires smarts and self control not to kill/finish the first guy who was almost already out of the play just via formation anyway. Other times, you're not going to have favorable position in formation so you just have to hightail yourself to that spot at the snap because, again, you know the count and where the play is going to help you get to the spot first (so all you need to do to be effective is seal/shield the defender from the ball carrier). For example, being a RG (backside) when the play is going left vrs a 5-2 and there's a LBer across from you that can jet. Sometimes your best case scenario is a finesse block like I just described. OL will get enough chances to drive block their opponent into another area code so you gotta make these finesse blocks I speak of to be elite. I think the IQ and discipline to know when to devour and when to finesse and when to hit and get to the next level - separates the dime a dozen from the elite.
Why all that? The film you shared of Josh shows me a guy that looks like he can do the things I speak of. He also stayed with and finished some fellers when that was an ideal time to do it. Like I told Darren, I definitely short changed this guy by about a half a round or so.
The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter...
Absoloobie.... I hate highlight reels in general, but it was all I could find yesterday... and TBH Jones did not look as good in that clip than he did in the cutdowns I found during my original eval.
I'll post the other game clips if I find them. If I was smart (and what are the odds of that?), then I put links in my write up... which is likely in one of two threads.
I'll be baak...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
You definitely notice the Great feet.
Yup... and if I find the above clips, you'll notice more than that.
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Here ya go... I did not have links in another thread (DOH!), but remembered youtube search string... University of Houston Offensive Line vs 2019... turns up 1-1/2 games.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I appreciate the fact that Callahan is here to help make the decision. His knowledge will go a long ways in selecting the right guy. IMOP, the only one who seems like he could be a massive bust is Becton...I just have a bad feeling about him. That being said, i know very little about evaluating offensive line talent. One guy whom I didn't see on the list is Ezra Cleveland. He's getting a lot of hype right now and the browns have had him in for a visit.
My predicition is the Browns are going to trade back to 12 with the Raiders and still get their guy. The Raiders want a #1 wr and if the board falls the way it is currently looking, the Raiders will want to jump the jets to get their guy. #12 and a 3rd rounder to jump a couple of spots. The browns would take that in a heartbeat.
Also, I wouldn't mind if the browns took a 1 year flyer on Peters. Basically, help the young tackle, wherever you draft him, get accustomed to this abnormal season that is going to happen. If Peters is playing at a high level, great. If he sucks after 5 games, you cut him or try to trade him for a late round pick to someone whom has injuries. This also helps to provide depth.
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Slight difference in our takes on Wills, but not Thomas or Wirfs... and my reluctance with Wills is simply due to the even small risk of having 1 of 2 experienced RTs have to flip to LT.
But do yourself a favor and spend a few minutes with...
The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter with Houston down 35-10. That said, he looked really good. The rest of the highlights looked very good vrs Cincy and Washington State (both opponents that were beating his team).
I may not word this well here; but this guy has the type of football IQ and discipline I like in an OL (especially a LT). There's a time to kill and a time to finesse often dictated by formation advantage or disadvantage. As an offensive linemen, 2 advantages you always have over your opponent is the snap count and where the play is going; and film shows Jones gets to the location he needs to be at first (regardless if the formation has him at an advantage or disadvantage). I saw him getting to the 2nd tiers when the formation gave him the advantage to do so - where he just give a quick initial hit at the LOS prior to getting to the next level to seal/shield or finish that defender. That requires smarts and self control not to kill/finish the first guy who was almost already out of the play just via formation anyway. Other times, you're not going to have favorable position in formation so you just have to hightail yourself to that spot at the snap because, again, you know the count and where the play is going to help you get to the spot first (so all you need to do to be effective is seal/shield the defender from the ball carrier). For example, being a RG (backside) when the play is going left vrs a 5-2 and there's a LBer across from you that can jet. Sometimes your best case scenario is a finesse block like I just described. OL will get enough chances to drive block their opponent into another area code so you gotta make these finesse blocks I speak of to be elite. I think the IQ and discipline to know when to devour and when to finesse and when to hit and get to the next level - separates the dime a dozen from the elite.
Why all that? The film you shared of Josh shows me a guy that looks like he can do the things I speak of. He also stayed with and finished some fellers when that was an ideal time to do it. Like I told Darren, I definitely short changed this guy by about a half a round or so.
The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter with Houston down 35-10. That said, he looked really good. The rest of the highlights looked very good vrs Cincy and Washington State (both opponents that were beating his team).
I may not word this well here; but this guy has the type of football IQ and discipline I like in an OL (especially a LT). There's a time to kill and a time to finesse often dictated by formation advantage or disadvantage. As an offensive linemen, 2 advantages you always have over your opponent is the snap count and where the play is going; and film shows Jones gets to the location he needs to be at first (regardless if the formation has him at an advantage or disadvantage). I saw him getting to the 2nd tiers when the formation gave him the advantage to do so - where he just give a quick initial hit at the LOS prior to getting to the next level to seal/shield or finish that defender. That requires smarts and self control not to kill/finish the first guy who was almost already out of the play just via formation anyway. Other times, you're not going to have favorable position in formation so you just have to hightail yourself to that spot at the snap because, again, you know the count and where the play is going to help you get to the spot first (so all you need to do to be effective is seal/shield the defender from the ball carrier). For example, being a RG (backside) when the play is going left vrs a 5-2 and there's a LBer across from you that can jet. Sometimes your best case scenario is a finesse block like I just described. OL will get enough chances to drive block their opponent into another area code so you gotta make these finesse blocks I speak of to be elite. I think the IQ and discipline to know when to devour and when to finesse and when to hit and get to the next level - separates the dime a dozen from the elite.
Why all that? The film you shared of Josh shows me a guy that looks like he can do the things I speak of. He also stayed with and finished some fellers when that was an ideal time to do it. Like I told Darren, I definitely short changed this guy by about a half a round or so.
If Thomas is there at ten, I suppose we should all do a wild and crazy happy dance at the pick. When I picked Josh Jones after a trade down about five spots, it was that surely Thomas and Wills would be gone. From what posters have posted about the new offense the Browns will run - the offensive line has to be able to move, keep their balance, and be pretty smart. Seems that trading down a bit and getting Jones - I thought I would get hammered on that one right off the bat, lol..was the perfect choice of "best available" that still fit the bill for the Browns. I hadn't seen that video of Jones til Tour posted it - but if Thomas and Wills are indeed gone - how far can we trade down? The Jets pick right after us - and they need offensive line help, but the bigger need is wr. It's a great draft for wr - would they go oline and then wr in the second?
I'm hoping for a happy dance with Thomas, Wills or Jones, and Wills has always? been at RT.
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The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter...
Absoloobie.... I hate highlight reels in general, but it was all I could find yesterday... and TBH Jones did not look as good in that clip than he did in the cutdowns I found during my original eval.
I'll post the other game clips if I find them. If I was smart (and what are the odds of that?), then I put links in my write up... which is likely in one of two threads.
I'll be baak...
Absoloobie.... I hate highlight reels in general, but it was all I could find yesterday... and TBH Jones did not look as good in that clip than he did in the cutdowns I found during my original eval.
I'll post the other game clips if I find them. If I was smart (and what are the odds of that?), then I put links in my write up...
Those highlights still showed us what he can do so I appreciated you sharing them. And thanks for adding in the other highlights. I just watched those as well. He's an impressive prospect. My main goal in starting a thread like this is for you and others to share your research, highlights and expertise about promising prospects at a very important position we need to upgrade this off-season. Aside from what I mentioned earlier, his coach had a great deal of confidence in pulling/trapping him from 1 side of formation to the other as the frequency of doing so reflected - and rightfully so. He's very smooth for a guy that big.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter with Houston down 35-10. That said, he looked really good. The rest of the highlights looked very good vrs Cincy and Washington State (both opponents that were beating his team).
I may not word this well here; but this guy has the type of football IQ and discipline I like in an OL (especially a LT). There's a time to kill and a time to finesse often dictated by formation advantage or disadvantage. As an offensive linemen, 2 advantages you always have over your opponent is the snap count and where the play is going; and film shows Jones gets to the location he needs to be at first (regardless if the formation has him at an advantage or disadvantage). I saw him getting to the 2nd tiers when the formation gave him the advantage to do so - where he just give a quick initial hit at the LOS prior to getting to the next level to seal/shield or finish that defender. That requires smarts and self control not to kill/finish the first guy who was almost already out of the play just via formation anyway. Other times, you're not going to have favorable position in formation so you just have to hightail yourself to that spot at the snap because, again, you know the count and where the play is going to help you get to the spot first (so all you need to do to be effective is seal/shield the defender from the ball carrier). For example, being a RG (backside) when the play is going left vrs a 5-2 and there's a LBer across from you that can jet. Sometimes your best case scenario is a finesse block like I just described. OL will get enough chances to drive block their opponent into another area code so you gotta make these finesse blocks I speak of to be elite. I think the IQ and discipline to know when to devour and when to finesse and when to hit and get to the next level - separates the dime a dozen from the elite.
Why all that? The film you shared of Josh shows me a guy that looks like he can do the things I speak of. He also stayed with and finished some fellers when that was an ideal time to do it. Like I told Darren, I definitely short changed this guy by about a half a round or so.
If Thomas is there at ten, I suppose we should all do a wild and crazy happy dance at the pick. When I picked Josh Jones after a trade down about five spots, it was that surely Thomas and Wills would be gone. From what posters have posted about the new offense the Browns will run - the offensive line has to be able to move, keep their balance, and be pretty smart. Seems that trading down a bit and getting Jones - I thought I would get hammered on that one right off the bat, lol..was the perfect choice of "best available" that still fit the bill for the Browns. I hadn't seen that video of Jones til Tour posted it - but if Thomas and Wills are indeed gone - how far can we trade down? The Jets pick right after us - and they need offensive line help, but the bigger need is wr. It's a great draft for wr - would they go oline and then wr in the second?
I'm hoping for a happy dance with Thomas, Wills or Jones, and Wills has always? been at RT.
...if Thomas and Wills are indeed gone - how far can we trade down? The Jets pick right after us - and they need offensive line help, but the bigger need is wr. It's a great draft for wr - would they go oline and then wr in the second?
I'm hoping for a happy dance with Thomas, Wills or Jones, and Wills has always? been at RT.
How far indeed... for me it really depends on whether Becton or Wirfs is gone as well. If they are not, if it's Thomas and Wills that are off the board first, then BION myself and the other amateur evaluators here, including you, may actually have done a better than historical job this time around.
Translation of whateverthefuckIwastryingtosayabove?
- If Thomas and Wills are the only 2 OTs off the board, then Jones starts looking really good at 10.
- If both are gone plus Becton or Wirfs, then I'd virtually run to the virtual NFL desk to turn in Jones' name.
- My only mitigating factor is the comfort I have developed with the UConn RT, Peart.
WR? I've taken one in sims... usually in the late first or early 2nd after a trade down (or two) netted me an extra 1st or 2nd. More times than not its been LSU's WR, Jefferson. But in any sim where I can't or haven't traded down (usually to take Thomas) I usually go another route as I see a limited prospect pool at other positions of greater need, e.g., a falling LB or DT.
To the best of my knowledge Wills has been only a RT at BAMA, but as someone pointed out Tua is a lefty, so Wills is tasked with protecting his blindside. I'd be surprised if Wills did not play LT in HS.
On a personal note... I may be wrong... as I often am up here as opposed to that other section of the BB
... but you seem to have spent more time with tape this year. At least I seem to be reading a lot more of your takes and have enjoyed doing so.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Absoloobie.... I hate highlight reels in general, but it was all I could find yesterday... and TBH Jones did not look as good in that clip than he did in the cutdowns I found during my original eval.
I'll post the other game clips if I find them. If I was smart (and what are the odds of that?), then I put links in my write up...
Those highlights still showed us what he can do so I appreciated you sharing them. And thanks for adding in the other highlights. I just watched those as well. He's an impressive prospect. My main goal in starting a thread like this is for you and others to share your research, highlights and expertise about promising prospects at a very important position we need to upgrade this off-season. Aside from what I mentioned earlier, his coach had a great deal of confidence in pulling/trapping him from 1 side of formation to the other as the frequency of doing so reflected - and rightfully so. He's very smooth for a guy that big.
Those highlights still showed us what he can do so I appreciated you sharing them. And thanks for adding in the other highlights. I just watched those as well. He's an impressive prospect. My main goal in starting a thread like this is for you and others to share your research, highlights and expertise about promising prospects at a very important position we need to upgrade this off-season. Aside from what I mentioned earlier, his coach had a great deal of confidence in pulling/trapping him from 1 side of formation to the other as the frequency of doing so reflected - and rightfully so. He's very smooth for a guy that big.
Welcome welcome and welcome...
Did not want to taint the jury pool earlier, but here is my post from when I first evaluated Jones..
Next up...
Josh Jones - OT - UH
Not a great deal of 2019 game film on Josh, but there is the Cougs full game vs OU and half of their game vs U of Cinci. The competition level, especially vs OU, was pretty decent.
Here are my thoughts...
- Calm, cool and collected describes Josh's game. He simply always looks like he is on control of the situation. He acts like he is the better player... and he is. Unlike Wirfs he gets to assigned spots on runs and is ready for first player that comes his way. He looks on his way to the spot.
- In PassPro he sets easily and quickly, but again calmly with no evidence of being rushed. Have to add that I saw more pass sets than I was expecting to see given UH's Air-Raid, passing attack due to Houston playing from behind.
- Tech... well, again there is nearly a complete lack of refined footwork present, but Josh has one thing mastered that he made me aware was missing is my above work on Tristan Wirfs... PAD LEVEL. It's there all the time on Josh's game... It's there in PassPro. It's there during drive blocks. It's there on the move to the 2nd level. It's there on post in the 2nd level. It's there all the time.
Bottom Line: Josh Jones plays like the 4-year starter he is. He plays like he's seen it all before... probably because he has. If we were stuck at #10 overall, I now have to consider turning in his name to be an option based upon a higher than expected floor. His ceiling? Not sure it threatens Thomas'... might be close to Wills'... but in either case it's enough of a question to send me back for another look at my top 2's tape.
Found myself rereading the entire thread that the above came from.
It's been an interesting journey for many of us this year... In my case I started of "not very impressed with what I've seen from Thomas so far." lol... well... at least I did look further.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The only nit-pick I have is the first highlight cluster vrs Oklahoma didn't begin until after the game was out of hand in the 4th quarter with Houston down 35-10. That said, he looked really good. The rest of the highlights looked very good vrs Cincy and Washington State (both opponents that were beating his team).
I may not word this well here; but this guy has the type of football IQ and discipline I like in an OL (especially a LT). There's a time to kill and a time to finesse often dictated by formation advantage or disadvantage. As an offensive linemen, 2 advantages you always have over your opponent is the snap count and where the play is going; and film shows Jones gets to the location he needs to be at first (regardless if the formation has him at an advantage or disadvantage). I saw him getting to the 2nd tiers when the formation gave him the advantage to do so - where he just give a quick initial hit at the LOS prior to getting to the next level to seal/shield or finish that defender. That requires smarts and self control not to kill/finish the first guy who was almost already out of the play just via formation anyway. Other times, you're not going to have favorable position in formation so you just have to hightail yourself to that spot at the snap because, again, you know the count and where the play is going to help you get to the spot first (so all you need to do to be effective is seal/shield the defender from the ball carrier). For example, being a RG (backside) when the play is going left vrs a 5-2 and there's a LBer across from you that can jet. Sometimes your best case scenario is a finesse block like I just described. OL will get enough chances to drive block their opponent into another area code so you gotta make these finesse blocks I speak of to be elite. I think the IQ and discipline to know when to devour and when to finesse and when to hit and get to the next level - separates the dime a dozen from the elite.
Why all that? The film you shared of Josh shows me a guy that looks like he can do the things I speak of. He also stayed with and finished some fellers when that was an ideal time to do it. Like I told Darren, I definitely short changed this guy by about a half a round or so.
If Thomas is there at ten, I suppose we should all do a wild and crazy happy dance at the pick. When I picked Josh Jones after a trade down about five spots, it was that surely Thomas and Wills would be gone. From what posters have posted about the new offense the Browns will run - the offensive line has to be able to move, keep their balance, and be pretty smart. Seems that trading down a bit and getting Jones - I thought I would get hammered on that one right off the bat, lol..was the perfect choice of "best available" that still fit the bill for the Browns. I hadn't seen that video of Jones til Tour posted it - but if Thomas and Wills are indeed gone - how far can we trade down? The Jets pick right after us - and they need offensive line help, but the bigger need is wr. It's a great draft for wr - would they go oline and then wr in the second?
I'm hoping for a happy dance with Thomas, Wills or Jones, and Wills has always? been at RT.
If Thomas is there at ten, I suppose we should all do a wild and crazy happy dance at the pick. When I picked Josh Jones after a trade down about five spots, it was that surely Thomas and Wills would be gone. From what posters have posted about the new offense the Browns will run - the offensive line has to be able to move, keep their balance, and be pretty smart. Seems that trading down a bit and getting Jones - I thought I would get hammered on that one right off the bat, lol..was the perfect choice of "best available" that still fit the bill for the Browns. I hadn't seen that video of Jones til Tour posted it - but if Thomas and Wills are indeed gone - how far can we trade down? The Jets pick right after us - and they need offensive line help, but the bigger need is wr. It's a great draft for wr - would they go oline and then wr in the second?
I'm hoping for a happy dance with Thomas, Wills or Jones, and Wills has always? been at RT.
Sounds like you did pretty goodsies Cal.
The Jets just signed George Fant to a 3 year $30 million contract with $13.7 million guaranteed. Right now he's slated to be their LT with talk he could play RT; but if we decide to trade back from #10 - we could be giving the Jets and Tampa an ideal opportunity to jump in front of us to take higher rated LTs for their investments at QB.
Just my opinion, I don't think we should get cute with this need if there's a stud LT on our doorstep at #10. Glad Tour encouraged me to take another look at Jones.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
If we do not resign Higgins I would like another receiver at some point....draft, trade or FA
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Those highlights still showed us what he can do so I appreciated you sharing them. And thanks for adding in the other highlights. I just watched those as well. He's an impressive prospect. My main goal in starting a thread like this is for you and others to share your research, highlights and expertise about promising prospects at a very important position we need to upgrade this off-season. Aside from what I mentioned earlier, his coach had a great deal of confidence in pulling/trapping him from 1 side of formation to the other as the frequency of doing so reflected - and rightfully so. He's very smooth for a guy that big.
Welcome welcome and welcome...
Did not want to taint the jury pool earlier, but here is my post from when I first evaluated Jones..
Next up...
Josh Jones - OT - UH
Not a great deal of 2019 game film on Josh, but there is the Cougs full game vs OU and half of their game vs U of Cinci. The competition level, especially vs OU, was pretty decent.
Here are my thoughts...
- Calm, cool and collected describes Josh's game. He simply always looks like he is on control of the situation. He acts like he is the better player... and he is. Unlike Wirfs he gets to assigned spots on runs and is ready for first player that comes his way. He looks on his way to the spot.
- In PassPro he sets easily and quickly, but again calmly with no evidence of being rushed. Have to add that I saw more pass sets than I was expecting to see given UH's Air-Raid, passing attack due to Houston playing from behind.
- Tech... well, again there is nearly a complete lack of refined footwork present, but Josh has one thing mastered that he made me aware was missing is my above work on Tristan Wirfs... PAD LEVEL. It's there all the time on Josh's game... It's there in PassPro. It's there during drive blocks. It's there on the move to the 2nd level. It's there on post in the 2nd level. It's there all the time.
Bottom Line: Josh Jones plays like the 4-year starter he is. He plays like he's seen it all before... probably because he has. If we were stuck at #10 overall, I now have to consider turning in his name to be an option based upon a higher than expected floor. His ceiling? Not sure it threatens Thomas'... might be close to Wills'... but in either case it's enough of a question to send me back for another look at my top 2's tape.
Found myself rereading the entire thread that the above came from.
It's been an interesting journey for many of us this year... In my case I started of "not very impressed with what I've seen from Thomas so far." lol... well... at least I did look further.
Welcome welcome and welcome...
Did not want to taint the jury pool earlier, but here is my post from when I first evaluated Jones..
Found myself rereading the entire thread that the above came from.
It's been an interesting journey for many of us this year... In my case I started of "not very impressed with what I've seen from Thomas so far." lol... well... at least I did look further.
Tell you what, about the pad height thing. Another impressive thing about Jones was the pad height and effort didn't change late in the game. 1 year at a football camp I went to a coach brought a game film of his team. He did this because he didn't have a big line on either side of the ball. His team got down early to a bigger team but they kept the score close. As it got into the 2nd half, he started to point out some guys that looked like studs in the 1st half now had their hands on their hips. Then he told us what else happens when players get tired. They're not only sucking gas but their pad heights get higher to the extent some guys are standing straight up. Then he showed his entire line had superior leverage (pad heights) on both sides of the ball throughout the 4th quarter. They ended up erasing a deficit and winning by 17 points. He said that's why we condition our athletes because when they invest what we ask of them - losing isn't an option. He said the film you just saw showed you heart beating talent where the better conditioned team was able to stay fundamentally sharp and continue doing all the little things that were escaping the other team via fatigue. When I saw all this with a big guy like Jones late in that Oklahoma, Washington and Cincy Games with the better pad height, hustling to the next level or with trapping and pulling - he's shines as the type of guy you want on your team.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
If Thomas is there at ten, I suppose we should all do a wild and crazy happy dance at the pick. When I picked Josh Jones after a trade down about five spots, it was that surely Thomas and Wills would be gone. From what posters have posted about the new offense the Browns will run - the offensive line has to be able to move, keep their balance, and be pretty smart. Seems that trading down a bit and getting Jones - I thought I would get hammered on that one right off the bat, lol..was the perfect choice of "best available" that still fit the bill for the Browns. I hadn't seen that video of Jones til Tour posted it - but if Thomas and Wills are indeed gone - how far can we trade down? The Jets pick right after us - and they need offensive line help, but the bigger need is wr. It's a great draft for wr - would they go oline and then wr in the second?
I'm hoping for a happy dance with Thomas, Wills or Jones, and Wills has always? been at RT.
Sounds like you did pretty goodsies Cal.
The Jets just signed George Fant to a 3 year $30 million contract with $13.7 million guaranteed. Right now he's slated to be their LT with talk he could play RT; but if we decide to trade back from #10 - we could be giving the Jets and Tampa an ideal opportunity to jump in front of us to take higher rated LTs for their investments at QB.
Just my opinion, I don't think we should get cute with this need if there's a stud LT on our doorstep at #10. Glad Tour encouraged me to take another look at Jones.
Jets and Tampa an ideal opportunity to jump in front of us to take higher rated LTs for their investments at QB.
Yup... We've known about NYJ (#11) for a while and now TB (#14) is clearly in the OT market, but who else do we need to watch out for?
Assuming the Fins (#5, 18, 26) tab a QB at #5 OT has to be on their shopping list next... and they are the ones with the fire power to move, but where?
- Going to exclude CIN (#1 - Burrows), WSH (#2 - Young) and DET (#3 - Okudah) for now as they feel set... although DET might be a trade partner for a QB-hungry team.
- After the Hopkins trade AZ (#8) is likely going OT. So move ups need to land above them...
- CAR(#7) looks like a likely trade partner, but could hinge on whether Simmons is gone... rumor is they are eyeballing him to replace Kuechly.
- LAC (#6) willingness to deal seems to depend upon the QB(s) left on the board.
- and that brings us to NYG...
For me NYG is the wildcard... rumored to be enamored by Simmons, they also need OT help to protect a QB investment. It's higher than any team might want to move, but hard to deny that #4 gives a team the pick of the OT litter.
Whatever target MIA chooses they can bring the most trade-power to the table to get a deal done. NYJ and TB have shorter climbs, but once MIA lays two #1's on the table the others would likely have to dip into future picks to get competitive. And that's hard to do...
And that raises another wrinkle... a team giving up on their top OT and instead being willing to trade down themself, add draft capital and "settle for" their #2 OT.
And that could include us...
You can go crazy thinking about all this stuff... it's why GMs are currently all trying to feel each other out and will continue to do so until they have to make a move on Draft Day.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Welcome welcome and welcome...
Did not want to taint the jury pool earlier, but here is my post from when I first evaluated Jones..
Found myself rereading the entire thread that the above came from.
It's been an interesting journey for many of us this year... In my case I started of "not very impressed with what I've seen from Thomas so far." lol... well... at least I did look further.
Tell you what, about the pad height thing. Another impressive thing about Jones was the pad height and effort didn't change late in the game. 1 year at a football camp I went to a coach brought a game film of his team. He did this because he didn't have a big line on either side of the ball. His team got down early to a bigger team but they kept the score close. As it got into the 2nd half, he started to point out some guys that looked like studs in the 1st half now had their hands on their hips. Then he told us what else happens when players get tired. They're not only sucking gas but their pad heights get higher to the extent some guys are standing straight up. Then he showed his entire line had superior leverage (pad heights) on both sides of the ball throughout the 4th quarter. They ended up erasing a deficit and winning by 17 points. He said that's why we condition our athletes because when they invest what we ask of them - losing isn't an option. He said the film you just saw showed you heart beating talent where the better conditioned team was able to stay fundamentally sharp and continue doing all the little things that were escaping the other team via fatigue. When I saw all this with a big guy like Jones late in that Oklahoma, Washington and Cincy Games with the better pad height, hustling to the next level or with trapping and pulling - he's shines as the type of guy you want on your team.
Jones was the pad height and effort didn't change late in the game.
Yup... and when you look at Jones vs. the other top ones his gut is much less pronounced. Add that he is so frickin' economical in his movement...
Damn... he reminds me of Joe T. I think I've said that somewhere before, but not many times and not very loud. No kick-step, but...
I tell ya... I am so close to putting Jones atop my OT board it isn't silly. But I can never quite pull that trigger and I think the reason I can't is that doing so would be a bridge too far in the face of the overwhelming number of "expert" opinions that have him ranked 5th best.
Then add in my takes on Becton and Wirfs vs the "heads"... even given the similar views of all others here, it feels like I'm already bucking the trend for this draft class.
But closest I have gotten is to make Jones my 1b to my 1a, Thomas.
Not easy to admit I might be being "cowed", but it is what it is... at least I can still lean on "competition level" if I need to preserve my OL ego...
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I appreciate the fact that Callahan is here to help make the decision. His knowledge will go a long ways in selecting the right guy. IMOP, the only one who seems like he could be a massive bust is Becton...I just have a bad feeling about him. That being said, i know very little about evaluating offensive line talent. One guy whom I didn't see on the list is Ezra Cleveland. He's getting a lot of hype right now and the browns have had him in for a visit.
My predicition is the Browns are going to trade back to 12 with the Raiders and still get their guy. The Raiders want a #1 wr and if the board falls the way it is currently looking, the Raiders will want to jump the jets to get their guy. #12 and a 3rd rounder to jump a couple of spots. The browns would take that in a heartbeat.
Also, I wouldn't mind if the browns took a 1 year flyer on Peters. Basically, help the young tackle, wherever you draft him, get accustomed to this abnormal season that is going to happen. If Peters is playing at a high level, great. If he sucks after 5 games, you cut him or try to trade him for a late round pick to someone whom has injuries. This also helps to provide depth.
- My predicition is the Browns are going to trade back to 12 with the Raiders and still get their guy. The Raiders want a #1 wr and if the board falls the way it is currently looking, the Raiders will want to jump the jets to get their guy. #12 and a 3rd rounder to jump a couple of spots. The browns would take that in a heartbeat.
- Also, I wouldn't mind if the browns took a 1 year flyer on Peters. Basically, help the young tackle, wherever you draft him, get accustomed to this abnormal season that is going to happen. If Peters is playing at a high level, great. If he sucks after 5 games, you cut him or try to trade him for a late round pick to someone whom has injuries. This also helps to provide depth.
- Why do you feel LVR (may as well get use to typing that) would pay up to leapfrog NYJ? Jets look more OT needy than WR and wit the depth of the WR class quality will spill out of Round 1.
- There's still a gut named Trent Williams looming out there. Not crazy about his injury history, but it's hard to argue with seven(?) consecutive Pro Bowl selections and counting.
Also... going to take a look at Cleveland... stay tuned.
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If Thomas is there at 10 ,... You take him.. then go defense the rest of the draft... Thats the vibe I'm feeling anyway...
If Thomas is there at 10 ,... You take him.. then go defense the rest of the draft... Thats the vibe I'm feeling anyway...
I'd still keep an eye out for a RG, if one were to be somewhere near the top of our board when our pick came up, some round. And supposedly is a good WR draft.
But yeah, we need LB'er(s), S, DT, and we shouldn't be afraid to pick a CB. And edge rusher. (we haven't done anything yet with Vernon, have we?)
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Personally I would trade a 3rd or 4th and a player for Trent Williams. Then
I would trade up in the first round for Simmons if he happens to fall to
#7 or lower. Probably not going to happen but Simmons could be a
gamechanger.
Personally I would trade a 3rd or 4th and a player for Trent Williams. Then
I would trade up in the first round for Simmons if he happens to fall to
#7 or lower. Probably not going to happen but Simmons could be a
gamechanger.
...and I don't want any of those things to happen......just sayin'
I want a shiny brand new LT....and I'm not 100% sure Simmons can be an NLF LB'er worthy of a top ten pick. To me, there's a chance that he's a tweener.
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Personally I would trade a 3rd or 4th and a player for Trent Williams. Then
I would trade up in the first round for Simmons if he happens to fall to
#7 or lower. Probably not going to happen but Simmons could be a
gamechanger.
...and I don't want any of those things to happen......just sayin'
I want a shiny brand new LT....and I'm not 100% sure Simmons can be an NLF LB'er worthy of a top ten pick. To me, there's a chance that he's a tweener.
...and I don't want any of those things to happen......just sayin'
I want a shiny brand new LT....and I'm not 100% sure Simmons can be an NLF LB'er worthy of a top ten pick. To me, there's a chance that he's a tweener.
A Jack of All Trades, Master of None type player?
When was the last time Trent Williams played an entire season?
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Jets and Tampa an ideal opportunity to jump in front of us to take higher rated LTs for their investments at QB.
Yup... We've known about NYJ (#11) for a while and now TB (#14) is clearly in the OT market, but who else do we need to watch out for?
Assuming the Fins (#5, 18, 26) tab a QB at #5 OT has to be on their shopping list next... and they are the ones with the fire power to move, but where?
- Going to exclude CIN (#1 - Burrows), WSH (#2 - Young) and DET (#3 - Okudah) for now as they feel set... although DET might be a trade partner for a QB-hungry team.
- After the Hopkins trade AZ (#8) is likely going OT. So move ups need to land above them...
- CAR(#7) looks like a likely trade partner, but could hinge on whether Simmons is gone... rumor is they are eyeballing him to replace Kuechly.
- LAC (#6) willingness to deal seems to depend upon the QB(s) left on the board.
- and that brings us to NYG...
For me NYG is the wildcard... rumored to be enamored by Simmons, they also need OT help to protect a QB investment. It's higher than any team might want to move, but hard to deny that #4 gives a team the pick of the OT litter.
Whatever target MIA chooses they can bring the most trade-power to the table to get a deal done. NYJ and TB have shorter climbs, but once MIA lays two #1's on the table the others would likely have to dip into future picks to get competitive. And that's hard to do...
And that raises another wrinkle... a team giving up on their top OT and instead being willing to trade down themself, add draft capital and "settle for" their #2 OT.
And that could include us...
You can go crazy thinking about all this stuff... it's why GMs are currently all trying to feel each other out and will continue to do so until they have to make a move on Draft Day.
Yup... We've known about NYJ (#11) for a while and now TB (#14) is clearly in the OT market, but who else do we need to watch out for?
Assuming the Fins (#5, 18, 26) tab a QB at #5 OT has to be on their shopping list next... and they are the ones with the fire power to move, but where?
- Going to exclude CIN (#1 - Burrows), WSH (#2 - Young) and DET (#3 - Okudah) for now as they feel set... although DET might be a trade partner for a QB-hungry team.
- After the Hopkins trade AZ (#8) is likely going OT. So move ups need to land above them...
- CAR(#7) looks like a likely trade partner, but could hinge on whether Simmons is gone... rumor is they are eyeballing him to replace Kuechly.
- LAC (#6) willingness to deal seems to depend upon the QB(s) left on the board.
- and that brings us to NYG...
For me NYG is the wildcard... rumored to be enamored by Simmons, they also need OT help to protect a QB investment. It's higher than any team might want to move, but hard to deny that #4 gives a team the pick of the OT litter.
Whatever target MIA chooses they can bring the most trade-power to the table to get a deal done. NYJ and TB have shorter climbs, but once MIA lays two #1's on the table the others would likely have to dip into future picks to get competitive. And that's hard to do...
And that raises another wrinkle... a team giving up on their top OT and instead being willing to trade down themself, add draft capital and "settle for" their #2 OT.
And that could include us...
You can go crazy thinking about all this stuff... it's why GMs are currently all trying to feel each other out and will continue to do so until they have to make a move on Draft Day.
Unfortunately, we can go even crazier watching the Doctors and Nurses on the front lines of the fight against the Corona Virus in major cities remaining massively under-supplied. Scary times....
To get our minds off of that for a little bit, I see NYG at #4, Arizona at #8, Cleveland at #10, NYJ at #11 and Tampa at #14 with ideal chances to draft a LT. The NYG were very disappointed with the results of their FA Nate Solder last year to the extent they should be looking to add a LT early on in this draft.
2 major wild cards I see in this (and you already mentioned the 1st one but I'll add additional trade bait):
Miami could also package picks #18 and 26 to move up for a LT after they draft their QB at #5; especially knowing how active they've been in FA in filling holes. Not for nothing, they also have a young QB Josh Rosen that they should try to get some exchange value for if they are going to draft another QB with Fitzpatrick as the veteran backup/tutor.
The FO War of the Roses divorce with Trent Williams in Washington makes LT a bigger need than edge rusher IMO. This is especially considering they've drafted Montez Sweat OLB/Edge Rusher in round 1 and DE Jonathan Allen DE in round 1 in recent years while Ryan Kerrigan is still playing at a high level (13 sacks in 2018, he had 3.5 sacks in just 5 games interrupted by IR in 2019). It is an NFL Body by Daniel Snyder so prepare for anything here including shocking the world to go best LT over best pass rusher at #2 overall. Aside from that, there's gotta be 1 of 32 teams that will trade for Williams before/during the draft.
LT is an important enough position to challenge some of the mindsets that usually cling to the BPA; especially when we factor in this is the position that protects the blindside of the franchise QB investment. It's going to be interesting - that's for sure.
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