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The truth about the political board

Political Discussion
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  •    For newcomers, it's probably good to explain it all.

    Years ago now, there was no political forum. And the left talked hate politics vs the republican president, etc etc etc. Well, it is supposed to be about football. But, it wasn't deleted at all. So, I made one post, of all the denigrating pictures of ...Bush? I posted one picture to counter all the political hate posturing. It was just the opposite of what all they were posting.

       and it got deleted immediately. I noticed it, and wondered if my mouse or keyboard acted up or something, so I posted it again. Deleted immediately.  I still thought something had gone wrong, but nope. Third time deleted. None of the hate stuff was deleted in the thread. Just my response pic. haha.

      So, eventually it was such a problem with politics overtaking football, they created the political forum. This was great, I hated talking politics on the football side.

       The moderator, a very good guy, was fair. But the left started hating him, because he didn't take sides. They gave him so much crap, that he got annoyed, and started deleting their crap. I told him, after a while, that they were trying to get him to respond in a bad way so they could get him gone and replaced.

       But he got upset with all the hate attacks, didn't listen, and got gone. And a few of them admitted it, and laughed.

    Then Westside Steve became the mod, and he doesn't take sides. Sure enough, lol, he's gotten some flack because he doesn't. Not ever from me. He does a great job. Which, infuriates some on the left. Steve won't help them control the narrative. Of course, he won't help the right, either, which makes the left happy.

       Dang, being a lefty is a conflict in existence, isn't it?

      So, we have Hoorta, mod over on the football side, come over. And he bashed Pres Trump, bashes and bashes.....and sides with the left, and criticizes the conservatives on the board, especially me, and bashes Pres Trump irrationally as the rest of the left. And the left can troll all they want, he says not one word. But one of us trolls? trolling THEN is bad.

       Now, Hoorta admits that three different people asked him to ask Kathy to get rid of the political forum, which, is how I have always said they operate. They emotionally demand to control the narrative, because they operate on emotion. When they can't control the narrative, they can't control other's free speech, they freak out and HATE.

      A lot like the deep state can't control OUR PRES TRUMP - so they hate him. The next pres election decides America's fate. And they lost the big one last time, this one is bigger.

      So, they are desperate. Over on the football side, Hoorta is a liberal (oops, my bad "independent"- who wants to shut us up, I've heard that Zombo is a democrat but I don't know, and over there, hacks like woody will have a controlling friend who is biased for them.

    They don't have it here, so they want this forum shut down, and own the football side again.

       That leads to the question - who are the three who want this forum shut down? lol

    If I was a bettin man...I'd put a thousand bucks on Woody. you betcha. lol The other two? dont' know, but......

    Woody started the political thread about kneeling on the football side, which is very controversial, but it also pertained to two Browns. I tried to avoid it, but I kept reading the hostility, and replied mildly maybe once, or twice.

    I've said for a few years, many times, "big serious trouble". I didn't know how big and serious it was going to be.

    it's worse than I imagined, as far as the corruption in our gov. I've also said for years - that the left demands to control everything - that is what they do.

    I wish I could post on the political board like I ....almost....always post on the football forum.

      You see it all around the country now. The police stand in the way of intimidating America. Our Pres Trump stands in the way of them owning America. Republicans in the Senate stand in the way of them controlling America.

       Our Constitution/Bill of Rights stand in the way of them owning and controlling the American people. The left has always demanded their free speech - 1st Amendment  !!!!. But as always, they find every way and every excuse to deny their political opposition THEIR free speech. Funny how that works, isn't it?

      Our 2nd Amendment stands in the way of them intimidating and frightening into submission - the American people who don't agree with them.

       Our immigration laws stand in the way of them flooding our electoral process with fraud - and votes by people who don't speak English, have little? education, don't know about our Constitution/Bill of Rights, and are easily manipulated because they are destitute without welfare help from the big welfare state.

       They demand control of everything. Pres Trump kept his promises - on the Supreme Court. And they tried to stop Kavanaugh with activist liar fake witnesses, hideous slurs and tried to completely destroy him and his family.

       They have done every thing they could think of, to try to destroy Trump's chances to become president, and then when that didn't work, they went back to their "insurance policy" (per strzok and page) in case he won.

       He won, and they set out to destroy him and his family ever since.

    Obamao commie insisted to Pres Trump that he not hire General Flynn, who HE fired. for no good reason.

    Gen Flynn was not one of them. They couldn't make him dance the deep state dance, which is very dangerous because General Flynn knew way, way, way too much.

    But, Pres Trump did hire him - and they immediately set out to destroy General Flynn and his entire family too.

    It goes on and on. It's a now violent deep state/marxist/liberal/globalist etc revolution.

    Biden is as corrupt as the day is long in the summer, but the left hates Pres Trump for his tweets, and pretends to hate everything he does and doesn't do for unknown reasons they won't divulge...

    but they will vote for biden anyways. And Biden says he's coming for our guns. and has already picked the guy who will come for them.

      So, with the most election coming up, the left cannot stand to not own this forum completely. OBF is a good friend, who was far more eloquent than I am, extremely smart....very non-confrontational, really intelligent, great natured, full of grace Christian poster.

      And he met with the hostility, and decided there were more important things he wanted to work on.

    You can bet that if I had posted that same thread about the kneeling, and had the opposite opinion, it would have been moved to the political forum immediately. lol

       That is how the left rolls. In emotion. You agree with them, it's great. You don't - all hell from them breaks loose.

    Lastly, here is also how it works with the left:

    "hate speech" means "conservatives shut up".

    "man made global warming (oh, sorry, "climate change") , means do what we say, vote how we say

    "dirty cop murders black man" means "get rid of all police, burn them out, unfund them out, so WE CAN BE the AUTHORITY.

    with the "cancel" weapon- they can make anyone, everyone fearful of losing their jobs/careers if they politically disagree with the left.

      They get control of the IRS - it means they harass/obstruct and target conservative groups.

    They get control of our intel agencies and FBI - you know how that went. Sick and corrupted weapon for the left.

    They get control of the DOJ - look at higgardly and obaMao commie. Look at holder and lynch.

    They get control of the social media - look at that fiasco.

    They get control of the msm - yep. you betcha it is in the tank for the left - the left owns it.

    on and on it goes.

    It's a sociological movement that has created a large sub-culture in America that hates America.

    No, they won't admit it. They just demand unlimited murder of born and unborn children, demand that conservatives lose their GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, they demand everything.

    It seems that this movement attracts flies like a dead fish on a shore.

    we just HAVE to re-elect Pres Trump and get the House back. Enough of their garbage hate crap.

    "and now, you know.......the rest of the story"

  • Thanks Paul Harvey.

  • As a newbie down here in the dark and scary bowels, I appreciate a good bedtime story.  

  • If you look up revisionist history in the dictionary it'll show a picture of this post. 

    I especially enjoyed how Me T was made out to be the hero. A lot of Christopher Columbus vibes there. 

    Fyi, I've never PM'd a mod about shutting down the political thread. I have openly/publicly called for it to be shut down many times. #NukeThePoliBoard

    Also, I like how @hoorta and I apparently became best friends in a matter of days haha

  • T wasn't a hero, never said that. T screwed up out of being harrassed and screwed with, and he went over the edge of acceptability and ended up gone. That's all. I never said "pm'd".  Hoorta did.

    The left wants it shut down so they can go over and have a lot more nasty leftwing company to talk politics with - I suppose they would be a controlling dominant minor majority. Maybe.

    It happened before, THAT IS WHY THIS FORUM EXISTS. I never said "best friends" in my post.

  • T wasn't a hero, never said that. T screwed up out of being harrassed and screwed with, and he went over the edge of acceptability and ended up gone. That's all. I never said "pm'd".  Hoorta did.

    The left wants it shut down so they can go over and have a lot more nasty leftwing company to talk politics with - I suppose they would be a controlling dominant minor majority. Maybe.

    It happened before, THAT IS WHY THIS FORUM EXISTS. I never said "best friends" in my post.

    @calfoxwc said:

    T wasn't a hero, never said that. T screwed up out of being harrassed and screwed with, and he went over the edge of acceptability and ended up gone. That's all. I never said "pm'd".  Hoorta did.

    The left wants it shut down so they can go over and have a lot more nasty leftwing company to talk politics with - I suppose they would be a controlling dominant minor majority. Maybe.

    It happened before, THAT IS WHY THIS FORUM EXISTS. I never said "best friends" in my post.

    Cal- just maybe once you could admit there's different legitimate points of view, and stop with the right wing conspiracy crap. You're 100% blind- and ignored the fact saying that I'm some bad guy for pointing out Trump's Tweets are 90% hateful spew? There's so much more to dislike about the guy, but it's a total waste of time me typing it out, because I've seen it- at least and probably more than a dozen times you guys won't believe it because you're living in Trump's amazing fantasy world. BTW, just to reiterate,  I have no, zero respect for someone who does that on a regular basis? I'll support Trump when he grows the f**k up.... BTW- Fox has an agenda just as much as CNN does. So who do you want to believe? I can only go by what my eyes are telling me..... 

    PS please stop the crap that anyone who dislikes Trump is some sort of liberal. Or did you pick that one up in one of Trump's many lies?  That BTW, you refuse to admit they even exist. 

  • @calfoxwc said:

    T wasn't a hero, never said that. T screwed up out of being harrassed and screwed with, and he went over the edge of acceptability and ended up gone. That's all. I never said "pm'd".  Hoorta did.

    The left wants it shut down so they can go over and have a lot more nasty leftwing company to talk politics with - I suppose they would be a controlling dominant minor majority. Maybe.

    It happened before, THAT IS WHY THIS FORUM EXISTS. I never said "best friends" in my post.

    Cal- just maybe once you could admit there's different legitimate points of view, and stop with the right wing conspiracy crap. You're 100% blind- and ignored the fact saying that I'm some bad guy for pointing out Trump's Tweets are 90% hateful spew? There's so much more to dislike about the guy, but it's a total waste of time me typing it out, because I've seen it- at least and probably more than a dozen times you guys won't believe it because you're living in Trump's amazing fantasy world. BTW, just to reiterate,  I have no, zero respect for someone who does that on a regular basis? I'll support Trump when he grows the f**k up.... BTW- Fox has an agenda just as much as CNN does. So who do you want to believe? I can only go by what my eyes are telling me..... 

    PS please stop the crap that anyone who dislikes Trump is some sort of liberal. Or did you pick that one up in one of Trump's many lies?  That BTW, you refuse to admit they even exist. 

    @hoorta said:

    Cal- just maybe once you could admit there's different legitimate points of view, and stop with the right wing conspiracy crap. You're 100% blind- and ignored the fact saying that I'm some bad guy for pointing out Trump's Tweets are 90% hateful spew? There's so much more to dislike about the guy, but it's a total waste of time me typing it out, because I've seen it- at least and probably more than a dozen times you guys won't believe it because you're living in Trump's amazing fantasy world. BTW, just to reiterate,  I have no, zero respect for someone who does that on a regular basis? I'll support Trump when he grows the f**k up.... BTW- Fox has an agenda just as much as CNN does. So who do you want to believe? I can only go by what my eyes are telling me..... 

    A. of course there are legit different points of view. However, you never once criticized obaMao for eight years, and the years afterwards. That is NOT legit. Your criticisms are fine with Pres Trump - but you criticize based on hate, no particular reason. I asked you for ONE LEGIT example of your claims against him, and you didn't. won't.

    B. therefore, it is the bias you won't let go of. I criticize Pres Trump's tweets too. He says some things that are very easily taken wrong? and cringe worthy. But I also admit what he is DOING FOR OUR COUNTRY, and you won't.

    C. You bash him for his tweets, but you won't admit the
    GREAT things he has done. That makes no sense at all. Perhaps you would rather have a smooth talking dishonest politician that lies to get into office, works against our 2nd Amendment, criticizes our Constitution, throws America and the American people under the bus around the world... can you hear me now?

    D. Fox does not have an agenda - you see hard core liberals all over. Different points of view all over. You will NOT see that on CNN. Pitiful defense attempt of your CNN.

    E. What right wing conspiracy crap are you referring to? the deep state? it isn't crap. Big serious trouble?

    it's happening now. 2 year old fake investigation based on a fake DNC/FBI dossier? Found nothin?

    How about you stop with defending the entire "get Pres Trump" crap, because the evidence is right there. The emails are right there. the actions are right there. Former FBI agents say it is. Brennan, clapper, all the rest - can't wait for them to end up in prison for the garbage they did.

    F. Look, you don't like being disagreed with. I got that with the Rosen fiasco. But I was right and you can't handle the truth.

    G. Read A-G and Have a Nice Day and God Bless.

  • @calfoxwc said:

    T wasn't a hero, never said that. T screwed up out of being harrassed and screwed with, and he went over the edge of acceptability and ended up gone. That's all. I never said "pm'd".  Hoorta did.

    The left wants it shut down so they can go over and have a lot more nasty leftwing company to talk politics with - I suppose they would be a controlling dominant minor majority. Maybe.

    It happened before, THAT IS WHY THIS FORUM EXISTS. I never said "best friends" in my post.

    Cal- just maybe once you could admit there's different legitimate points of view, and stop with the right wing conspiracy crap. You're 100% blind- and ignored the fact saying that I'm some bad guy for pointing out Trump's Tweets are 90% hateful spew? There's so much more to dislike about the guy, but it's a total waste of time me typing it out, because I've seen it- at least and probably more than a dozen times you guys won't believe it because you're living in Trump's amazing fantasy world. BTW, just to reiterate,  I have no, zero respect for someone who does that on a regular basis? I'll support Trump when he grows the f**k up.... BTW- Fox has an agenda just as much as CNN does. So who do you want to believe? I can only go by what my eyes are telling me..... 

    PS please stop the crap that anyone who dislikes Trump is some sort of liberal. Or did you pick that one up in one of Trump's many lies?  That BTW, you refuse to admit they even exist. 

    @hoorta said:

    PS please stop the crap that anyone who dislikes Trump is some sort of liberal.

    That's the "go to" for right wingers in today's world. If you're not right of center, you're deemed a liberal. 

    As for this forum, I don't frequent it nearly as often as I used to. There's enough division on the news, Twitter, FB, etc so I decided to shy away from here. 

    Go Browns

  • As a newbie down here in the dark and scary bowels, I appreciate a good bedtime story.  

    @d-bone said:

    As a newbie down here in the dark and scary bowels, I appreciate a good bedtime story.  

    Once upon a time a dragon hag named Nancy Pelosi  was handed a gavel she used it to do evil things to the people in her land and she teamed up with Shifty Schiff they kept scheming to overthrow the great President Trump but would always fail...

    2020-06-11_205753.jpg

    78710492_2855308654487904_822691691239571456_n.jpg

  • This side of the board is bizarre as fuck. I usually just end up getting bewildered and sheepishly saunter off.

    I guess it’s like sports where people get caught up in the minutia of things, except instead of discussing a QB’s 3rd down completion percentage in 12 personnel in the red zone, it’s discussions about who said what in 1983 vs what they said yesterday. 

    Not my thing at all but I suppose it’s good to have so you people who enjoy this stuff can chase your tails. 

  • This side of the board is bizarre as fuck. I usually just end up getting bewildered and sheepishly saunter off.

    I guess it’s like sports where people get caught up in the minutia of things, except instead of discussing a QB’s 3rd down completion percentage in 12 personnel in the red zone, it’s discussions about who said what in 1983 vs what they said yesterday. 

    Not my thing at all but I suppose it’s good to have so you people who enjoy this stuff can chase your tails. 

    @ibleedbrown said:

    This side of the board is bizarre as fuck. I usually just end up getting bewildered and sheepishly saunter off.

    I guess it’s like sports where people get caught up in the minutia of things, except instead of discussing a QB’s 3rd down completion percentage in 12 personnel in the red zone, it’s discussions about who said what in 1983 vs what they said yesterday. 

    Not my thing at all but I suppose it’s good to have so you people who enjoy this stuff can chase your tails. 

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

  • @d-bone said:

    As a newbie down here in the dark and scary bowels, I appreciate a good bedtime story.  

    Once upon a time a dragon hag named Nancy Pelosi  was handed a gavel she used it to do evil things to the people in her land and she teamed up with Shifty Schiff they kept scheming to overthrow the great President Trump but would always fail...

    2020-06-11_205753.jpg

    78710492_2855308654487904_822691691239571456_n.jpg

    @vambo said:

    Once upon a time a dragon hag named Nancy Pelosi  was handed a gavel she used it to do evil things to the people in her land and she teamed up with Shifty Schiff they kept scheming to overthrow the great President Trump but would always fail...

    2020-06-11_205753.jpg

    78710492_2855308654487904_822691691239571456_n.jpg

    This is a fine example. Thank you Vambo.

    So you got divisive politicians doing divisive politician shit, throw in a dragon judge reference and some jive Wile E Coyote themed photo and an over the top good vs evil narrative, and wala! You got some really really wierd shit to read. 

  • @ibleedbrown said:

    This side of the board is bizarre as fuck. I usually just end up getting bewildered and sheepishly saunter off.

    I guess it’s like sports where people get caught up in the minutia of things, except instead of discussing a QB’s 3rd down completion percentage in 12 personnel in the red zone, it’s discussions about who said what in 1983 vs what they said yesterday. 

    Not my thing at all but I suppose it’s good to have so you people who enjoy this stuff can chase your tails. 

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

    @diehardbrownsfan said:

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

    That’s fair. I’m definitely out of my element here. When was the first time l was an asswipe though?

  • @ibleedbrown said:

    This side of the board is bizarre as fuck. I usually just end up getting bewildered and sheepishly saunter off.

    I guess it’s like sports where people get caught up in the minutia of things, except instead of discussing a QB’s 3rd down completion percentage in 12 personnel in the red zone, it’s discussions about who said what in 1983 vs what they said yesterday. 

    Not my thing at all but I suppose it’s good to have so you people who enjoy this stuff can chase your tails. 

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

    @diehardbrownsfan said:

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

    real classy that....

  • @diehardbrownsfan said:

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

    That’s fair. I’m definitely out of my element here. When was the first time l was an asswipe though?

    @ibleedbrown said:

    That’s fair. I’m definitely out of my element here. When was the first time l was an asswipe though?

    That guy is just a flat out troll. Don't waste your breath. 

  • Cal you seem to be making the point for getting rid of the board with all that crap you just spewed out. A lot of emotional garbage there for a guy who says he isn't emotional.  

    "That is how the left rolls. In emotion."        Oh really?   Then what was that whole post above to start this thread?

  • Wow.

    that would be the liberal calling card through and through to get rid of this board.

    how will you guys gloat when you finally win?

  • Cal you seem to be making the point for getting rid of the board with all that crap you just spewed out. A lot of emotional garbage there for a guy who says he isn't emotional.  

    "That is how the left rolls. In emotion."        Oh really?   Then what was that whole post above to start this thread?

    @texasag1969 said:

    Cal you seem to be making the point for getting rid of the board with all that crap you just spewed out. A lot of emotional garbage there for a guy who says he isn't emotional.  

    "That is how the left rolls. In emotion."        Oh really?   Then what was that whole post above to start this thread?

    That's one of my favorite things

    * "Liberals are too emotional!" he said emotionally *

  • @hoorta said:

    Cal- just maybe once you could admit there's different legitimate points of view, and stop with the right wing conspiracy crap. You're 100% blind- and ignored the fact saying that I'm some bad guy for pointing out Trump's Tweets are 90% hateful spew? There's so much more to dislike about the guy, but it's a total waste of time me typing it out, because I've seen it- at least and probably more than a dozen times you guys won't believe it because you're living in Trump's amazing fantasy world. BTW, just to reiterate,  I have no, zero respect for someone who does that on a regular basis? I'll support Trump when he grows the f**k up.... BTW- Fox has an agenda just as much as CNN does. So who do you want to believe? I can only go by what my eyes are telling me..... 

    A. of course there are legit different points of view. However, you never once criticized obaMao for eight years, and the years afterwards. That is NOT legit. Your criticisms are fine with Pres Trump - but you criticize based on hate, no particular reason. I asked you for ONE LEGIT example of your claims against him, and you didn't. won't.

    B. therefore, it is the bias you won't let go of. I criticize Pres Trump's tweets too. He says some things that are very easily taken wrong? and cringe worthy. But I also admit what he is DOING FOR OUR COUNTRY, and you won't.

    C. You bash him for his tweets, but you won't admit the
    GREAT things he has done. That makes no sense at all. Perhaps you would rather have a smooth talking dishonest politician that lies to get into office, works against our 2nd Amendment, criticizes our Constitution, throws America and the American people under the bus around the world... can you hear me now?

    D. Fox does not have an agenda - you see hard core liberals all over. Different points of view all over. You will NOT see that on CNN. Pitiful defense attempt of your CNN.

    E. What right wing conspiracy crap are you referring to? the deep state? it isn't crap. Big serious trouble?

    it's happening now. 2 year old fake investigation based on a fake DNC/FBI dossier? Found nothin?

    How about you stop with defending the entire "get Pres Trump" crap, because the evidence is right there. The emails are right there. the actions are right there. Former FBI agents say it is. Brennan, clapper, all the rest - can't wait for them to end up in prison for the garbage they did.

    F. Look, you don't like being disagreed with. I got that with the Rosen fiasco. But I was right and you can't handle the truth.

    G. Read A-G and Have a Nice Day and God Bless.

    @calfoxwc said:

    A. of course there are legit different points of view. However, you never once criticized obaMao for eight years, and the years afterwards. That is NOT legit. Your criticisms are fine with Pres Trump - but you criticize based on hate, no particular reason. I asked you for ONE LEGIT example of your claims against him, and you didn't. won't.

    B. therefore, it is the bias you won't let go of. I criticize Pres Trump's tweets too. He says some things that are very easily taken wrong? and cringe worthy. But I also admit what he is DOING FOR OUR COUNTRY, and you won't.

    C. You bash him for his tweets, but you won't admit the
    GREAT things he has done. That makes no sense at all. Perhaps you would rather have a smooth talking dishonest politician that lies to get into office, works against our 2nd Amendment, criticizes our Constitution, throws America and the American people under the bus around the world... can you hear me now?

    D. Fox does not have an agenda - you see hard core liberals all over. Different points of view all over. You will NOT see that on CNN. Pitiful defense attempt of your CNN.

    E. What right wing conspiracy crap are you referring to? the deep state? it isn't crap. Big serious trouble?

    it's happening now. 2 year old fake investigation based on a fake DNC/FBI dossier? Found nothin?

    How about you stop with defending the entire "get Pres Trump" crap, because the evidence is right there. The emails are right there. the actions are right there. Former FBI agents say it is. Brennan, clapper, all the rest - can't wait for them to end up in prison for the garbage they did.

    F. Look, you don't like being disagreed with. I got that with the Rosen fiasco. But I was right and you can't handle the truth.

    G. Read A-G and Have a Nice Day and God Bless.

    A ,B :  I have damn good reasons to criticize Trump, (as do a few dozen other respected commentators- starting with George Will. That you lemming Cal had to bash- because he's not smooching up up to Trump's BS anymore....  and they (and my) opinions are NOT based on hate. Sorry Mr. Conspiracy theory. Then STFU with your Obama bashing...  OK?  I said Trump did around two great things for the USA- that Pence easily could have done- without being an asshole. Got it? probably not. PS- Trump has nothing BUT hate for people who disagree with him, but the MAGAs are too blind to see that....  

    C  But  OTOH rather have a politician (make that carnival barker, thanks Mr. Bloomberg)  that treats Congressional subpoenas like toilet paper, and busts up a peaceful protest so he can do a phony photo op...

    D FOX doesn't have an agenda? Damn- hell's bells maybe from your alternate reality POV, not mine... Reich is a tad too liberal for my tastes- but he called FOX out for their BS- but you lap up every word as Gospel.... 

    Finally- you snowflake Trumptards can't stand being disagreed with, and will  go to any lengths to concoct defenses for DT's many failures. I just may go all Ghoolie on you and start posting your daily Bernie\AOC crap to get a little balance around here. 

    PS- I had a chat with Steve about the previous Moderator. Would you like me to take over from the other side of the fence? You'd all be gone within a month. 😁

    So say it loud and say it proud... Trump is a scumbag, but I like his agenda.....  And don't try the lame comeback- but Biden and the Democrats are worse... There- I already anticipated your BS....  

  • @diehardbrownsfan said:

    And your still an asswipe, and no one cares what you think.  

    That’s fair. I’m definitely out of my element here. When was the first time l was an asswipe though?

    @ibleedbrown said:

    That’s fair. I’m definitely out of my element here. When was the first time l was an asswipe though?

    Sorry.  I didn't mean to respond to you, it was meant for someone else.?