Phil Savage Must Go Too...
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I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Savage yet. He HAS made mistakes...IMHO, the largest are:1) Re-signing DA when you KNOW someone else would end up giving us good picks for a guy who couldn't put a game away. Last year, DA was the recipient of a LOT of other things going well such as Chud's influence, O-line play, receiver play, & a great back. What QB wouldn't have won?...& he STILL never was able to put a game out of reach so Brady could get game experience.
2) Apparently sticking with RAC for the rest of this year. I think we have enough talent with which to win, IF they are properly coached (read, in part, tackling fundamentals) & motivated (sometimes motivation is collecting splinters, Mr Edwards). The team is not properly motivated now & I am concerned that by sticking with RAC through the season, our self motivated & prideful players may say, "Get me OUT of here!".
I honestly believe that we COULD win with the players we have, that we are NOT a bad team, but a team whose talent is not utilized to be successful. The Browns, again IMHO, probably get LESS out of the talent they have on the roster than any other team in the league. THAT is called poor coaching.
Mike
Can you say "pass the Koolaid"
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When looking at that list of FA signings, on the D side, that CLE is running a 3-4. Guys that can play NT or DE in the 3-4 don't grow on trees. There are only 3 teams in the NFL that run the 3-4 with great success (w/ SD falling off). The other 2 teams, PIT and NE have been running that D for 8 or more years.NE ran a 3-4 and they drafted Vince Wilfork to provide a strong apex.
Pitt runs a 3-4 and they drafted Casey Hampton with Jason Hoke as their backup while we're thinking of excuses that there's not enough good football players in America for the Cleveland Browns to find them too. Masters, I think you're a VERY insightful fan that I enjoy reading but look at the length you're going to in order to be positive about Savage. It's year #4 and ARE we winning? If NOT, why in God's blazes did Opie give RAC a raise? And because Opie agrees with you that there are NO MORE good LBers in America - we'd rather give Andra Davis a raise and pretend our Wali Rainer clone (Jackson) is good enough for a 3-4. We haven't been at the draft for just 1 draft - this was the 4th one and whjat LBer impresses you from a defense predicated by the play of the LBers?
FYI, SD drafted a kid out of Northwestern to play NT and he's done pretty well. Luis Castillo. He was available when we were drafting.
Phil Savage has been PUSHING for this 3-4 since he got here. RAC ran a 4-3 when he was a DC for us and when he FIRST went back to NE they were using a 4-3 with Ted Johnson playing MLB. Injuries up front made them go to a 3-4 if you remember when they lost a few guys on their dline rotation. They had enough talent to do it.
Ted Bruschi AND Mike Vrabel weren't LBers in college but they had the TALENT, physical tools, football smarts/instincts to be naturals. Here's the gems NE drafted on their front dline:
Willie McGinest, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymore, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green. They've had a free agent like Ted Washington before he became a senior citizen. When Willie left they got Adalius Thomas and drafted Mayo at LBer. That's outrageously good. They WON Superbowls with the WRs they drafted Givens & Branch and haven't won a SB when they upgraded to Moss. I always say - there's somethign about a player setting out to PROVE his value vrs a player who's value that has already been determined. Branch & Givens haven't done a thing since they got their dream salaries.
Haloti Ngata was available when we drafted Wimbley. He's a BIG 2 gapper type that could play NT.
There's ALOT of good DEs in the league. Kyle Vanden Bosch here in Nashville is as good as they get. You're dodging the issue that Corey Williams is justifying his inflated salary. There was NO pass rush on Thursday Night and when you have more offsides penalties than sacks when you occupy millions of dollars from our cap - you're screwing us.
Folks, what's with the pampers for Phil Savage and his choices?
Are ya REALLY THIS pumped about 3-6?
I've never seen so many excuses for junior achievement in all my life. You LIKE this? God bless ya! Not me. I saw REAL defensive football in Cleveland throughout the 80s to accept this as - as good as it gets. Not even close. I feel bad for you guys that NEVER got to see a Clay Matthews or a Mike Johnson or even a Chip Banks having us compete at PLAYOFF level not this dog-shoot. We didn't have to pay Reggie Camp or Sam Clancy anywhere near what Corey Williams and Shaun Smith are making. I'll bet our 3-4 DEs (Clancy & Camp) had more sacks under Marty than this crap. Big Daddy Hairston played better too and he was as old as Willie is. Our defense ranked #1 in the CONFERENCE then. It's how you win 12 games in 1 season. This is the exact opposite and you guys are arguing it's wonderful.
- Tom F. ("Aw shucks" doesn't work with me. Character and HUNGRY football players do. Get me a Mike Johnson, Clay Matthews, Thane Gash anyday. I miss players like that here)
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Fluges, no need to accuse me of not reading your messages. I'm reading every word. I know you said you weren't blaming him for injuries, but you follow something like "I'm not BLAMING him for injuries " with a comment like "The injury isn't Phil's fault but overlooking the RISK is." Every player that steps onto the field have the risk of being injured. Sure, some older players have greater risk, but players in their prime should be just fine, right? Well I think we've proven that wrong here in Cleveland. The only way to avoid the risk of injuries is to not bring in any players at all. Was there an obvious risk with Steinbach? Baxter? Bentley? No, these were tough players in their prime who hadn't missed any significant time. Then the Cleveland curse took them out.
I see you complaining about Savage's inability to bring players in. . . Savage brought in Lance Moore, Romeo makes the decision to cut him. Wimbley was highly ranked in the first draft, nobody thought it was a bad pick. Same with Edwards. Nobody questioned those picks when they happend. But once Romeo gets a hold of them, then all bets are off.
You're have a problem with the players he drafts, but I am happy with the players he gets later in the draft, including Jerome Harrison, Lawrence Vickers, Eric Wright, Brandon McDonald, Syndric Steptoe, Alex Hall, Beau Bell, Martin Rucker. And even those few undrafted gems, like Cribbs, Ali, Lance Moore.
I'll match his drafts up to any other teams' draft. I think he's doing a fine job, and only getting better.
And JADBF hit the nail on the head. We haven't even been close to a salary cap purge since Savage got here. He's managing the money like a champion, so it's hard for me to agree that he's wasting money like you feel he is.
And also don't accuse me of being 'happy' with the 3-6 record. I'm supportive of Savage, not the coaching. I think the talent is here (not enough yet, but it's getting better each year). I don't think the Coaching is doing us any favors.
I really can't discuss this with you. You accuse me of being a Savage homer. Ok, fine, it's true. I like Savage BECAUSE I think he's doing a good job. But you're the polar opposite. Your hatred of Savage is blinding you to the successes he has had here. . . or maybe you hate Savage BECAUSE you think he's doing a bad job. It's a difference of opinion, and we're not going to agree on it, so there's no real need for us to go on about it.
My opinion, he's doing a good job, and getting better. He addresses the primary areas of need each offseason. He can't do it all at once. He started with a blank slate (how many of the players from Butch Davis' drafts are still even playing in the NFL?), so it takes time, and he's making progress. . . in SPITE of Romeo's inability to coach up players and to use the talent he has.
It's also my opinion that if you got rid of Savage, it would be a monumental mistake, setting the organization back to 1999 all over again.
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And one more thing. . . yes, Ngata was available when Savage took Wimbley. But after year 1 nobody was questioning that decision, as Wimbley was a beast. It's easy to look back now and say, yeah, we should have taken Ngata. But who is to say that Ngata under Crennel wouldn't have been a bust? No way to know, really.
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When looking at that list of FA signings, on the D side, that CLE is running a 3-4. Guys that can play NT or DE in the 3-4 don't grow on trees. There are only 3 teams in the NFL that run the 3-4 with great success (w/ SD falling off). The other 2 teams, PIT and NE have been running that D for 8 or more years.NE ran a 3-4 and they drafted Vince Wilfork to provide a strong apex.
Already running it when they took him and drafted before Phil was here. Having a good foundation as a team and coach does wonders.
Pitt runs a 3-4 and they drafted Casey Hampton with Jason Hoke as their backup while we're thinking of excuses that there's not enough good football players in America for the Cleveland Browns to find them too. Masters, I think you're a VERY insightful fan that I enjoy reading but look at the length you're going to in order to be positive about Savage. It's year #4 and ARE we winning? If NOT, why in God's blazes did Opie give RAC a raise? And because Opie agrees with you that there are NO MORE good LBers in America - we'd rather give Andra Davis a raise and pretend our Wali Rainer clone (Jackson) is good enough for a 3-4. We haven't been at the draft for just 1 draft - this was the 4th one and whjat LBer impresses you from a defense predicated by the play of the LBers?
Hampton already in PIT before Phil. He did miss finding Chris Hoke as UDFA. CLE was a winning team last year. People can say what they want about the schedule, but teams in the NFL don't win 10 games w/ no talent. They don't hang in games or take double diget leads into the 4th quarter of games by accident either. That is failure on the coach. Jackson is a good lb, but he really is the weak ILB in a 3-4. A solid strong ILB is missing. Davis didn't get a raise. He got a pay cut in the offseason. His deal was redone and he'll be a FA after this year. I am by no means saying Phil hasn't had failures. But the performance on the field, or lack there of is a bit tough to pin on Phil. (thanks for the compliment too by the way)
FYI, SD drafted a kid out of Northwestern to play NT and he's done pretty well. Luis Castillo. He was available when we were drafting.
Keep in mind he was a late 1st rounder and a shock when he was taken there. This is the guy coming out of college that got busted for steriods at the combine. That draft CLE took Edwards at #3. While I would say Phil should have taken Merriman and wanted him there. But at that time, CLE had needs in every area on the team. That was Phil's first year in CLE.
Phil Savage has been PUSHING for this 3-4 since he got here. RAC ran a 4-3 when he was a DC for us and when he FIRST went back to NE they were using a 4-3 with Ted Johnson playing MLB. Injuries up front made them go to a 3-4 if you remember when they lost a few guys on their dline rotation. They had enough talent to do it.
Phil did not push the 3-4 when he got to CLE. RAC made that choice as HC. HC decide schemes, not GMs. RAC was under Palmer that one year here, coming to a team running the 4-3 already. With the success he had here that year as DC w/ a 4-3, I don't know why he doesn't prefer it. Every where else he was though as DC was a 3-4 or a hybrid. Even NE at that time was a hybrid.
Ted Bruschi AND Mike Vrabel weren't LBers in college but they had the TALENT, physical tools, football smarts/instincts to be naturals. Here's the gems NE drafted on their front dline:
Willie McGinest, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymore, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green. They've had a free agent like Ted Washington before he became a senior citizen. When Willie left they got Adalius Thomas and drafted Mayo at LBer. That's outrageously good. They WON Superbowls with the WRs they drafted Givens & Branch and haven't won a SB when they upgraded to Moss. I always say - there's somethign about a player setting out to PROVE his value vrs a player who's value that has already been determined. Branch & Givens haven't done a thing since they got their dream salaries.
They were undersized DE in college. No different than Wimbley, Lawson, Kiwanuku, Merriman, etc. Those FA's you mention chose NE because they were SB contenders. It goes a long way. You are right, they won SBs with no WRs. But that credit belongs to Brady, Weiss, and most of all BB. You pull BB out of there, I am not sure they are the perenial winner they are now. Look at Indy, they only changed coaches, not GMs, then they win every year.
Haloti Ngata was available when we drafted Wimbley. He's a BIG 2 gapper type that could play NT.
There are no guarantees Ngata has the same success as a NT (there were question by scouts if he could play NT, SF passed him up too). Just as there are no guarantees Wimbley wouldn't be better under a different HC.
There's ALOT of good DEs in the league. Kyle Vanden Bosch here in Nashville is as good as they get. You're dodging the issue that Corey Williams is justifying his inflated salary. There was NO pass rush on Thursday Night and when you have more offsides penalties than sacks when you occupy millions of dollars from our cap - you're screwing us.
Keep in mind Williams contract is like DAs. He can be gone after this year w/ little cap impact. He was certainly a risk. There are no guarantees Vanden Bosch does any better in a 3-4.
Folks, what's with the pampers for Phil Savage and his choices?
Are ya REALLY THIS pumped about 3-6?
I've never seen so many excuses for junior achievement in all my life. You LIKE this? God bless ya! Not me. I saw REAL defensive football in Cleveland throughout the 80s to accept this as - as good as it gets. Not even close. I feel bad for you guys that NEVER got to see a Clay Matthews or a Mike Johnson or even a Chip Banks having us compete at PLAYOFF level not this dog-shoot. We didn't have to pay Reggie Camp or Sam Clancy anywhere near what Corey Williams and Shaun Smith are making. I'll bet our 3-4 DEs (Clancy & Camp) had more sacks under Marty than this crap. Big Daddy Hairston played better too and he was as old as Willie is. Our defense ranked #1 in the CONFERENCE then. It's how you win 12 games in 1 season. This is the exact opposite and you guys are arguing it's wonderful.
- Tom F. ("Aw shucks" doesn't work with me. Character and HUNGRY football players do. Get me a Mike Johnson, Clay Matthews, Thane Gash anyday. I miss players like that here)
Phil is not beyond any blame, by no means. But changing front office and HC every 2-4 years isn't exactly a winning formula for any organization, no matter the sport. I just think at this point in CLE you start with changing only the HC and see what happens. Problems with losing leads and losing close games comes down to coaches. GMs can only supply players. I share your frustrations and fully conceed Phil has had mistakes. But it's not like he has blunders on a grand magnitude in the scheme of the NFL. This isn't Butch Davis here.
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Very well played, Masters, very well played. Not much different than what I am saying, but you used things like Knowledge and Research.
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My point is absolutley FIRE RAC but if we continue to draft the way we have in 2005, 2006 and 2008 .....Flugs....I'd really like to know your top 5 gm's and top 5 teams....can you share? I want to do a comparison....is polian in your top 5 as gm? give me 5You cannot call 2006 draft a bad draft. I would be as bold to say that may turn out to be one of Clevelands best drafts ever. Time will tell but 2 years later its still looking pretty damn good.
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In theory Savages drafts have gotten better each year.
2005 - two starters in Pool and Edwards
2006 - three starters in Wimbley, Jackson, Vickers (plus Harrison who should be playing more)
2007 - Thomas, Quinn, Wright, McDonald (maybe starting to soon), and Steptoe (who at least has shown he can fill in as a returner and still might develop into a #3 WR - remember, the dude was 7th rounder).
2008 - Could make a case that Quinn counts this year, got Rogers, then Bell and Rucker (who may pan out), and Hall.
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My point is absolutley FIRE RAC but if we continue to draft the way we have in 2005, 2006 and 2008 .....Flugs....I'd really like to know your top 5 gm's and top 5 teams....can you share? I want to do a comparison....is polian in your top 5 as gm? give me 5You cannot call 2006 draft a bad draft. I would be as bold to say that may turn out to be one of Clevelands best drafts ever. Time will tell but 2 years later its still looking pretty damn good.
Hell Im confusing my years here, I meant the 2007 draft not 2006.
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