Is time bringing OBJ question more into focus?
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So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without.
With OBJ:
420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int
Without OBJ:
412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int
OK, I'm not elated by having OBJ in our team, he gets paid way more than what he has contributed thanks to injuries, but... OBJ came when Freddie Kitchens came on board just to throw to the garbage can all what Ken Zampese had done with Bakers rollouts and PAP after Clueless Jackson was fired...
I would like to know the stats from this year with and without OBJ, but then again as Tour said the team HAD to improve throughout the season, so the comparison is hard to make or oversimplistic.I would like to know the stats from this year with and without OBJ, but then again as Tour said the team HAD to improve throughout the season, so the comparison is hard to make or oversimplistic.
Baker 2020 stats w/ OBJ:
103 com, 170 att, 61% com, 1095 yards, 6.4 yds/att, 10 td, 6 int
Baker 2020 stats w/o OBJ:
102 com, 157 att, 66% com, 1347 yards, 8.6 yds/att, 11 td, 1 int*
* Technically, I could have broken this down even more. I included the entirety of the second game vs Cincinnati in the "without OBJ" stats, when he did play early on before injuring his knee. In fact, the one interception in the w/o OBJ stats was intended for OBJ. It was the play OBJ blew out his knee.
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So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without.
With OBJ:
420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int
Without OBJ:
412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int
OK, I'm not elated by having OBJ in our team, he gets paid way more than what he has contributed thanks to injuries, but... OBJ came when Freddie Kitchens came on board just to throw to the garbage can all what Ken Zampese had done with Bakers rollouts and PAP after Clueless Jackson was fired...
I would like to know the stats from this year with and without OBJ, but then again as Tour said the team HAD to improve throughout the season, so the comparison is hard to make or oversimplistic.OK, I'm not elated by having OBJ in our team, he gets paid way more than what he has contributed thanks to injuries, but... OBJ came when Freddie Kitchens came on board just to throw to the garbage can all what Ken Zampese had done with Bakers rollouts and PAP after Clueless Jackson was fired...
Absolutely. While stats are often times considered to be "black and white", there are often circumstances for why one thing or another comes out the way they have. Let's flush them out concerning this.
For example, it makes sense that Baker's stats would improve as the season progresses under a new coaching staff. If OBJ had missed the first half of the season, and had played the second half of the season, would Baker's with OBJ and without OBJ stats had stayed the same? Or would they have flipped? And like I said earlier, and the reason I'm still not on the "BAKER IS A FRANCHISE QB bandwagon is that two giant hurdles are in front of him: Baltimore and Pittsburgh. His Without OBJ stats might dip mightily after those two games.
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OK, I'm not elated by having OBJ in our team, he gets paid way more than what he has contributed thanks to injuries, but... OBJ came when Freddie Kitchens came on board just to throw to the garbage can all what Ken Zampese had done with Bakers rollouts and PAP after Clueless Jackson was fired...
Absolutely. While stats are often times considered to be "black and white", there are often circumstances for why one thing or another comes out the way they have. Let's flush them out concerning this.
For example, it makes sense that Baker's stats would improve as the season progresses under a new coaching staff. If OBJ had missed the first half of the season, and had played the second half of the season, would Baker's with OBJ and without OBJ stats had stayed the same? Or would they have flipped? And like I said earlier, and the reason I'm still not on the "BAKER IS A FRANCHISE QB bandwagon is that two giant hurdles are in front of him: Baltimore and Pittsburgh. His Without OBJ stats might dip mightily after those two games.
Absolutely. While stats are often times considered to be "black and white", there are often circumstances for why one thing or another comes out the way the have. Let's flush them out concerning this.
For example, it makes sense that Baker's stats would improve as the season progresses under a new coaching staff. If OBJ had missed the first half of the season, and had played the second half of the season, would Baker's with OBJ and without OBJ stats had stayed the same? Or would they have flipped? And like I said earlier, and the reason I'm still not on the "BAKER IS A FRANCHISE QB bandwagon is that two giant hurdles are in front of him: Baltimore and Pittsburgh. His Without OBJ stats might dip mightily after those two games.
Plus Nick Chubb missed 4 of those games. IIRC, he got injured in the first half of the Cowboys' game (Week 4), and in those first 8 games we played Ravens and Steelers, both times the Offense sucking big time, not only thanks to OBJ... Chubb had season low yards vs the Ravens.
It's hard to analyze a QB's performance in a vaccuum because such thing doesn't exist and there are many factors, but I didn't feel like he was forcing the ball to OBJ, which would be the main argument against OBJ. We have a lot of weapons and Stefanski has been using all of them, or at least that's how I feel like. -
Absolutely. While stats are often times considered to be "black and white", there are often circumstances for why one thing or another comes out the way the have. Let's flush them out concerning this.
For example, it makes sense that Baker's stats would improve as the season progresses under a new coaching staff. If OBJ had missed the first half of the season, and had played the second half of the season, would Baker's with OBJ and without OBJ stats had stayed the same? Or would they have flipped? And like I said earlier, and the reason I'm still not on the "BAKER IS A FRANCHISE QB bandwagon is that two giant hurdles are in front of him: Baltimore and Pittsburgh. His Without OBJ stats might dip mightily after those two games.
Plus Nick Chubb missed 4 of those games. IIRC, he got injured in the first half of the Cowboys' game (Week 4), and in those first 8 games we played Ravens and Steelers, both times the Offense sucking big time, not only thanks to OBJ... Chubb had season low yards vs the Ravens.
It's hard to analyze a QB's performance in a vaccuum because such thing doesn't exist and there are many factors, but I didn't feel like he was forcing the ball to OBJ, which would be the main argument against OBJ. We have a lot of weapons and Stefanski has been using all of them, or at least that's how I feel like.It's hard to analyze a QB's performance in a vaccuum because such thing doesn't exist and there are many factors, but I didn't feel like he was forcing the ball to OBJ, which would be the main argument against OBJ. We have a lot of weapons and Stefanski has been using all of them, or at least that's how I feel like.
See, I disagree with you on that, but I don't blame OBJ for this, I blame Baker.
There has been stretches where it looked to me like Baker was going to do everything in his power to make sure OBJ was involved. I saw many instances of OBJ being covered like wallpaper and Baker staring him down and still forcing throws.
Unlike some here, I don't hate OBJ. I don't particularly like him, but I don't think he's a cancer to the Browns. I just don't think he's a player who can be counted on, a player that when things start going bad, he'll be the guy who steadies the ship. If things are going well, he's fine. If things start going bad, he'll not help turn it around. Plus, he's not someone who can be counted on to be on the field. Simply, I believe OBJ not being on the field, despite his talent, is an example of addition by subtraction regarding Baker.
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So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without.
With OBJ:
420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int
Without OBJ:
412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int
So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without.
With OBJ:
420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int
Without OBJ:
412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int
A better measure would be Baker under Stefanski, and Baker without Stefanski.
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It's hard to analyze a QB's performance in a vaccuum because such thing doesn't exist and there are many factors, but I didn't feel like he was forcing the ball to OBJ, which would be the main argument against OBJ. We have a lot of weapons and Stefanski has been using all of them, or at least that's how I feel like.
See, I disagree with you on that, but I don't blame OBJ for this, I blame Baker.
There has been stretches where it looked to me like Baker was going to do everything in his power to make sure OBJ was involved. I saw many instances of OBJ being covered like wallpaper and Baker staring him down and still forcing throws.
Unlike some here, I don't hate OBJ. I don't particularly like him, but I don't think he's a cancer to the Browns. I just don't think he's a player who can be counted on, a player that when things start going bad, he'll be the guy who steadies the ship. If things are going well, he's fine. If things start going bad, he'll not help turn it around. Plus, he's not someone who can be counted on to be on the field. Simply, I believe OBJ not being on the field, despite his talent, is an example of addition by subtraction regarding Baker.
See, I disagree with you on that, but I don't blame OBJ for this, I blame Baker.
There has been stretches where it looked to me like Baker was going to do everything in his power to make sure OBJ was involved. I saw many instances of OBJ being covered like wallpaper and Baker staring him down and still forcing throws.
Unlike some here, I don't hate OBJ. I don't particularly like him, but I don't think he's a cancer to the Browns. I just don't think he's a player who can be counted on, a player that when things start going bad, he'll be the guy who steadies the ship. If things are going well, he's fine. If things start going bad, he'll not help turn it around. Plus, he's not someone who can be counted on to be on the field. Simply, I believe OBJ not being on the field, despite his talent, is an example of addition by subtraction regarding Baker.
About forcing the ball, I had that feeling of forcing the ball LAST year, not this one.
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So here's Baker Mayfield's career stats, with OBJ and without.
With OBJ:
420 com, 704 att, 60% com, 4922 yards, 7.0 yds/att, 32 td, 27 int
Without OBJ:
412 com, 643 att, 64% com, 5072 yards, 7,9 yds/att, 38 td, 15 int
A better measure would be Baker under Stefanski, and Baker without Stefanski.
A better measure would be Baker under Stefanski, and Baker without Stefanski.
Go back to your idiotic post about Belichick being perhaps the 15th best head coach in NFL history.
Men are talking football here.
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That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought.
If we don't get Florida's TE Pitts in 2021, then may I send another in 2022, now Soph Aggie TE Jalen Wydermeyer? First team Freshman AA 2019 and go-to receiver this year. Very wide and high catch radius. Very similar to Mike Evans with same height and speed, but a better blocker. I think he is our best pro prospect currently on the team. Take a look at a few highlights from last year. Notice those super-long arms on top of a 6'5" frame. He and Pitts are the two best this year I think, but he has another year before he can go pro.
If we don't get Florida's TE Pitts in 2021, then may I send another in 2022, now Soph Aggie TE Jalen Wydermeyer? First team Freshman AA 2019 and go-to receiver this year. Very wide and high catch radius. Very similar to Mike Evans with same height and speed, but a better blocker. I think he is our best pro prospect currently on the team. Take a look at a few highlights from last year. Notice those super-long arms on top of a 6'5" frame. He and Pitts are the two best this year I think, but he has another year before he can go pro.
Looks like a younger Ben Watson. Definite guy to keep an eye on
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If we don't get Florida's TE Pitts in 2021, then may I send another in 2022, now Soph Aggie TE Jalen Wydermeyer? First team Freshman AA 2019 and go-to receiver this year. Very wide and high catch radius. Very similar to Mike Evans with same height and speed, but a better blocker. I think he is our best pro prospect currently on the team. Take a look at a few highlights from last year. Notice those super-long arms on top of a 6'5" frame. He and Pitts are the two best this year I think, but he has another year before he can go pro.
Looks like a younger Ben Watson. Definite guy to keep an eye on
Looks like a younger Ben Watson. Definite guy to keep an eye on
In 4 less games he has already matched last year's yds and TDs. But the main thing Browns fans need to know is that he is the 3rd down go-to guy and up until their poor offensive performance against LSU after a 3 week layoff, A&M was the top 3rd down team in the country, This guy is why that was. He had two key TDs in their last 31-20 win over Auburn last week, with the big catches coming in 4th Q 17 point run. He's a player when the game is on the line. I feel the same about Florida's TE Pitts. Very similar kind of players. But I think Pitts will be gone by the time we pick. So keep this one a secret in 2022.?
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A better measure would be Baker under Stefanski, and Baker without Stefanski.
Go back to your idiotic post about Belichick being perhaps the 15th best head coach in NFL history.
Men are talking football here.
Go back to your idiotic post about Belichick being perhaps the 15th best head coach in NFL history.
Men are talking football here.
Men, I don't see any men. Certainly not where you are concerned, boy.
Besides, I said between 10-15. You can elevate him if you would like to 10
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Go back to your idiotic post about Belichick being perhaps the 15th best head coach in NFL history.
Men are talking football here.
Men, I don't see any men. Certainly not where you are concerned, boy.
Besides, I said between 10-15. You can elevate him if you would like to 10
Men, I don't see any men. Certainly not where you are concerned, boy.
Besides, I said between 10-15. You can elevate him if you would like to 10
Name 9 better HCs than Hoodie.
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Here is an article by Brent Sobleski on Twitter where he admits that there has been enough time, i.e. games, to where it is becoming clear that the Browns are a better team without OBJ. The stats are all there, and the eye test is there also. Baker scans the field better, he throws to more receivers (9 in the first half alone against the Titans), and of course the wins are there.
The strongest argument for keeping OBJ, imo, is that it isn't OBJ not being in the lineup that has made Baker improve, it is Baker getting used to the system. But even if that's true and Baker shows that the Titans game was not an aberration but the norm my feeling is that, from a money/cap perspective and a trade value perspective, we would get more value trading OBJ than keeping him on the team.
I look at it this way. In this system does it make much sense that we pay so much $ to a guy that will catch 65 passes for 1,100 yards tops? (Because if he is catching a lot more passes than that then the balance between the receivers and the offense start to skew) And while OBJ's value is down because of his injury, imagine what his value will be next year if we find out that he IS the reason for Baker not being successful, and we decide to unload him at that time. It will be the middle of the season and teams will know that we need to unload him.
Here is an article by Brent Sobleski on Twitter where he admits that there has been enough time, i.e. games, to where it is becoming clear that the Browns are a better team without OBJ. The stats are all there, and the eye test is there also.
I've been declaring this since before the season even started. The only game they lost since OBJ has been out was the game with the torrential downpour. When OBJ was on the field, Baker felt the pressure to get him the ball; when not, he throws to whoever is open. And what a difference it has been.
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With OBJ we could be legit SB contenders even with this defense (KC's SB winning defense wasn't that great, fricking Ogbah was one of their best playmakers lol). OBJ is a WR swiss knife, can play all receiver positions and the opposing defense ALWAYS has to gameplan against him. I've liked Sobleski's work in the past but in this case I disagree with him.
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Men, I don't see any men. Certainly not where you are concerned, boy.
Besides, I said between 10-15. You can elevate him if you would like to 10
Name 9 better HCs than Hoodie.
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Well, I think they have wholly underused Hooper and maybe all their TEs....especially since OBJ went down.
I would kind of like to see a "spread sheet", i.e. how they have distributed their passes....spread them out that is, between each position, WRs, TEs, RBs.
I wonder if anyone has a link or something to that.
That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought.
That's a very big surprise from this season. I really expected this to be an offense that uses their TEs a lot. Most games, they are an afterthought.
eh, hooper played here in atlanta and he was ok....he is not a kittle or the big dude with lv..not even close....then there is ajokeu...he stinks....the other te number 88 drops passes and fumbles the ball.....we probably still need a good te....maybe in the draft.....
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I don’t know if their overall passing game has improved without Beckham, but Jarvis Landry certainly has benefited from his absence.
From some guys that matter...
Khadarel Hodge with D. Ward will be out this week
... Landry/Higgins/Peoples & a newbie Marvin Hall are all we have on active 53 at this time.. to be continued.
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Nobody is considering the public statements of Baker -- they were just figuring out Stef's new system when OBJ's injury happened. First couple wks of this season were like the preseason as far as installing it.
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Nobody is considering the public statements of Baker -- they were just figuring out Stef's new system when OBJ's injury happened. First couple wks of this season were like the preseason as far as installing it.
First couple wks of this season were like the preseason as far as installing it.
I'd go up to at least four games. Even with a normal pre-season Belichick considers the first four weeks of the regular season to be a trial period. Of course, what does he know?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'm not gonna say the refs were biased but they might have gotten them from group homes in this weird covid season.
I mean stefanski had to throw a challenge flag to get them to acknowledge when the ravens had 15 defenders on the field.
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